Curse

zling · Jun 04, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

you would be best off with a channeling/resto build for Razah. since that build doesnt require an elite you can devote it to hex removal(expel hexes for example) or you can focus on better e-management(offering of spirit for example) and give him remove/inspire hex or something

DarkSpirit · Jun 04, 2008, 10:51 PM // 22:51

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Originally Posted by The Meth

Degen is made pretty much irrelevant by strong party wide healing anyway. Pressure only works when the defense cant keep up with the damage and is slowly worn down. This rit build has more then enough energy management to keep up in a fight for a very long time, so its not going to be pressured to death.

It is a 15s recharge energy management skill, returning only a net of 11e, and it depends on a spirit being alive without sacrificing health. Yes it can be overwhelmed.

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Of course hex removal isn't useless, but a single hex removal on a hero who has just as much chance to remove crap as remove something good has to be thought about. Having a 50% chance of being nigh useless every time its cast is a pretty big drawback.

Not if you know how to micro manage it. Otherwise bring more hex removal skills.

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Also, please post this shaz 6 man FoW build. Haven't heard of it.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0277418&page=3

The Meth · Jun 05, 2008, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

It is a 15s recharge energy management skill, returning only a net of 11e, and it depends on a spirit being alive without sacrificing health. Yes it can be overwhelmed.

Well, with proper energy management I have never seen my hero rit run out of energy. I can't see how it can get better then never running out. Granted I haven't tried a 20 minute long battle in DoA with him, but I've done just about every HM mission with 1 or 2 of these rits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Not if you know how to micro manage it. Otherwise bring more hex removal skills.

Ok, there is a certain level of micro management I will accept. Forcing Splinter onto a certain person? Fine. Calling certain targets? Fine. Telling a certain hero to focus on a certain enemy? Fine. Trying to micro a hero to cast a spell every 8 seconds, and you have to cast it fairly soon after the right hex lands otherwise it gets covered, doing this on both yourself and heroes? Meh, kinda of too much work for too little benefit. You can only see hexes on half your team anyway, what do you do when henchies/players get hexes? (Personally I laugh at players who whine about hexes, but I CARE about my hench!)

I do normally play ranger in PvE though, and as rangers generally require a greater amount of concentration on the job then some other professions I can see why other easier to use builds might have more time to do micro with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0277418&page=3

That build has a SY! spammer. When you include SY! into the equation the damage for everything that isn't degen or hexes drops into the single digits anyway. Especially since SY! shutdown is the point of failure, its immensely important to keep the SY free of miss chance or decreased attack speed, because with SY up lets face it, nothing really can kill you. Of course everything changes when you bring overpowered PvE skills into the discussion.

Not to mention, that build pretty much proves my point anyway. A single hex can't reliably remove the hexes you hate, you need either divert hexes spammed or a lot of smaller hex removals to make sure bad stuff gets off. Or for areas in which hexes can be avoided or aren't devastating, just bring more damage/support instead and power through it.

Super Igor · Jun 05, 2008, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Tbh, with OoS health sac is nothing, you dont even need to use a spirit as its not a big deal anyway, as an energy management it...not if good but decent, personally I like it and 14 channeling SW/AR makes a big difference.

DarkSpirit · Jun 05, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

That build has a SY! spammer. When you include SY! into the equation the damage for everything that isn't degen or hexes drops into the single digits anyway. Especially since SY! shutdown is the point of failure, its immensely important to keep the SY free of miss chance or decreased attack speed, because with SY up lets face it, nothing really can kill you.

That is not true. There is such a thing as armor ignoring damages in the game. Alternatively your SY spammer may have other hexes on him that deters him from spamming SY (e.g. soothing images) and since you dont believe in bringing hex removal, then your SY is gone.

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Of course everything changes when you bring overpowered PvE skills into the discussion.

You ALWAYS have overpowered PvE skills around. Is Finish Him overpowered? Is Pain Inverter overpowered? I think so, and for every hero build, there is always a human player involved.

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Not to mention, that build pretty much proves my point anyway. A single hex can't reliably remove the hexes you hate, you need either divert hexes spammed or a lot of smaller hex removals to make sure bad stuff gets off. Or for areas in which hexes can be avoided or aren't devastating, just bring more damage/support instead and power through it.

Actually it was MY point, that bringing hex removal is not necessarily bad for PvE, and bringing multiple hex removal can help to ensure that the deadly hexes get removed.

The Meth · Jun 05, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

That is not true. There is such a thing as armor ignoring damages in the game. Alternatively your SY spammer may have other hexes on him that deters him from spamming SY (e.g. soothing images) and since you dont believe in bringing hex removal, then your SY is gone.

That was... exactly what I was saying. Once you have SY up armor affected damage is nil (and armor affected damage is far more prevalent then armor ignoring damage in pve) so all that matters is armor ignoring damage. And the only reason hex removal is needed so much is that if SY goes down the build fails, hence the number of hex removals. If the build wasn't relying on a single overpowered skill to carry the party and instead had some real protection then it would be far more immune to hexes. And I'm not saying hex removal is useless, I am saying putting a single removal on a hero and expecting them to make a difference with it is a gamble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You ALWAYS have overpowered PvE skills around. Is Finish Him overpowered? Is Pain Inverter overpowered? I think so, and for every hero build, there is always a human player involved.

Are any of those skills powerful enough to make it the skill a whole build is based around? Those just add damage, they don't introduce the radically imbalanced teamgroup that SY does. SY basically lets you drop all but 1 healer and all of the secondary protection that other characters would carry based on the constant upkeep of a single skill.

If we start considering all of the PvE skills as skills to be used in a real build, here is the best build for everyone:
[Ursan Blessing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaz

I know hybrid monk are better, but if you aren't bad at SY, prot is unnecessary for this team build in FoW. Because if you're doing it right, the only thing that should kill you are SS and Empathy, mostly SS though.

You have it from shaz himself. SY is an overpowered skill that makes everything BUT hexes irrelevant in FoW. You can guess why there are so many skills for taking SS and Empathy off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Actually it was MY point, that bringing hex removal is not necessarily bad for PvE, and bringing multiple hex removal can help to ensure that the deadly hexes get removed.

I didn't say a single hex removal was bad, I said a single hex removal was a chancy skill to be used by a hero that probably wont payoff as well as another more reliable skill. The point is bringing a single hex removal DOESN'T ensure deadly hexes get removed, you have to bring much more to make sure the bad ones get taken off. If you take only 1 you have to put up with parasitic bond and crap getting taken off while the bad stuff stays on.

DarkSpirit · Jun 06, 2008, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

That was... exactly what I was saying. Once you have SY up armor affected damage is nil (and armor affected damage is far more prevalent then armor ignoring damage in pve) so all that matters is armor ignoring damage. And the only reason hex removal is needed so much is that if SY goes down the build fails, hence the number of hex removals. If the build wasn't relying on a single overpowered skill to carry the party and instead had some real protection then it would be far more immune to hexes. And I'm not saying hex removal is useless, I am saying putting a single removal on a hero and expecting them to make a difference with it is a gamble.

Adrenaline hexes also deter DSlash builds and so does Empathy, SS, Insidious, and Blurred Vision. It is not just SY builds that can benefit from hex removal.

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Are any of those skills powerful enough to make it the skill a whole build is based around? Those just add damage, they don't introduce the radically imbalanced teamgroup that SY does. SY basically lets you drop all but 1 healer and all of the secondary protection that other characters would carry based on the constant upkeep of a single skill.

If we start considering all of the PvE skills as skills to be used in a real build, here is the best build for everyone:
[Ursan Blessing]

I find SY to be even more overpowered than UB. UB makes 1 character strong (although not even 100 armor on a squishy). SY gives 100 armor to the entire team except for the already highly armored caster. Guess which is more overpowered and unfair where H/H teams are concerned.