Curse

digitalruse · Jun 02, 2008, 05:31 AM // 05:31

I have been playing around with using a Rit as my primary healer in PvE. I searched around on here and PvX but either there is very little to go on, or none of the builds appeal to me.

Here was the build I was looking at, but all signs seem to point to using a x/Rt or no Ritualist at all. Which is kinda sad (cause I think Razah is cool):

[Boon of [email protected]][Mend Body and [email protected]][Ritual [email protected]][[email protected]][[email protected]][[email protected]][Flesh of my [email protected]][Spirit [email protected]]

I guess the biggest problem I foresee is the lack of Hex removal. Any thoughts or suggestions? Maybe a Rt/Mo or Me for the Hex removal? Me could also give some nice energy management.

As a human you had a Resto/Com build, I was pretty happy with it. I just don't know how the AI will treat it.

Thanks in advance
-DR

EDIT: He will be used in a Rt/Me (Me), E/N (Unsteady Ground Hero), R/Me (BHA Hero) group with various other henchies thrown in when not playing with friends.

FoxBat · Jun 02, 2008, 05:40 AM // 05:40

The buffed Ritual lord could make defensive spirit spam nice again, but that belongs as its own spirit-spam build. Just getting enough energy to take full advantage of the faster recharge is difficut as-is, you don't have the energy left for healing as well. This is not to mention that spending all that time churning out spirits means you can't save someone who is dying right then, and heroes are especially bad at timing.

[Offering of Spirit][Splinter Weapon][Ancestor's Rage][Mend Body and Soul][Soothing Memories][Protective Was Kaolai][Life][Flesh of my Flesh]

This isn't quite as good a healer as N/Rt, but it's better than most hero monks, and provides some good offensive support. There's alot of places where 2 healers is too many, but 1.5 is just right.

digitalruse · Jun 02, 2008, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Is it best to just try to out last hexes, or I need to be sure that my friends have that covered? Here was a Rt/Me build I was looking at after seeing your suggestion:

[Offering of Spirit][Splinter Weapon][Protective was Kaolai][Soothing Memories][Life][Mend Body and Soul][Waste Not, Want Not][Inspired Hex]

Thanks for the response.
-DR

DarkSpirit · Jun 02, 2008, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Maybe try out a Wanderlust Earthbind hb pvp build since you like communing and you have an Unsteady Ground hero in your team?

[Wanderlust Earthbind Rit;OAKjghgMpOOTkD5c2dOPbwTBAA]

Heroes dont use Ritual Lord well although I have not tried it recently, but they know how to use Serpent Quickness with Spirits.
If you need hex removal, just switch your secondary to /Mo for [[Remove Hex] or /Me for [[Inspired Hex]

digitalruse · Jun 02, 2008, 06:11 AM // 06:11

It's not that I like communing. I just thought it would go well with restoration as Union and Shelter would pick up some of the slack. I can see where energy would be an issue and how OoS and SW/AR could be well managed by a hero.

That said, I am still leery of hexes with any Rit build that isn't /Me or /Mo. Me seems like a nice choice only because of WN,WN, but Mo would give me a straight up cheap Hex removal and I would lean on OoS and Soothing Memories for e-management. Or maybe Boon of Creation.

How are heroes when it comes to holding items? Is it best to invest in a decent caster weapon(s) or don't bother?

-DR

FoxBat · Jun 02, 2008, 06:15 AM // 06:15

There aren't too many places in PvE where hexes do anything but mass degen, so the party heals are the best counter to that.

The places where hexes are an issue, some token 20sec recharge isn't doing a thing. You need someone else to break out the [Empathic Removal],[Expel Hexes],[Hex eater Vortex], [Signet of Removal], or[convert Hexes], none of which typically go on a healer type. But if you insist, try [hex eater signet]

[Protective was Kaolai] is used quite well and is in-hand most of the time, it varies for the other urns.

digitalruse · Jun 02, 2008, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Maybe I am confused then. I would figure that a healer would also be responsible for removing hexes. Or, is your statement that it doesn't work well on a healing rit? I could see that then...

With that in mind, I will try to just use a pure Rit build. If hexes start being obnoxious I might give something like this a try:

[Expel Hexes][Splinter [email protected]][Ancestors' [email protected]][Protective was [email protected]][Soothing [email protected]][Mend Body and [email protected]][[email protected]][Waste Not, Want [email protected]]

It seems like a nice compromise.

As a follow up to items/weapons use... what is recommended in this case? 40/40 seems like a waste, in this case... maybe a caster spear/shield?

Thanks for the feedback so far.
-DR

P.S. - I have a hard res as does my ranger, so I am not too concerned about him not having one.

legacyofkain85 · Jun 02, 2008, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

This isn't quite as good a healer as N/Rt, but it's better than most hero monks, and provides some good offensive support. There's alot of places where 2 healers is too many, but 1.5 is just right.

yes depends on who makes the builds for the hero monks ,btw rit heroes kinda suck using [skill]Offering of spirit[/skill]

legacyofkain85 · Jun 02, 2008, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

This isn't quite as good a healer as N/Rt, but it's better than most hero monks, and provides some good offensive support. There's alot of places where 2 healers is too many, but 1.5 is just right.

yes depends on who makes the builds for the hero monks ,btw rit heroes kinda suck using [skill]Offering of spirit[/skill]

The Meth · Jun 02, 2008, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

The buffed Ritual lord could make defensive spirit spam nice again, but that belongs as its own spirit-spam build. Just getting enough energy to take full advantage of the faster recharge is difficut as-is, you don't have the energy left for healing as well. This is not to mention that spending all that time churning out spirits means you can't save someone who is dying right then, and heroes are especially bad at timing.

[Offering of Spirit][Splinter Weapon][Ancestor's Rage][Mend Body and Soul][Soothing Memories][Protective Was Kaolai][Life][Flesh of my Flesh]

This isn't quite as good a healer as N/Rt, but it's better than most hero monks, and provides some good offensive support. There's alot of places where 2 healers is too many, but 1.5 is just right.

This is just about exactly what I usually run. IMO if you micro offering of spirit right (which isn't all that hard, cast on recharge when low on energy) its better healing then N/Rt, and it has insane damage as well. Its pretty awesome seeing 6 people on the team with almost max splinter weapon. Even if there is a better healing build a hero could run, I am 100% sure there isn't a better one that also has the same huge damage.

Make sure you have your atts set at 14 channeling and 13 restoration btw, that hits the breakpoint for splinter weapon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitalruse

Is it best to just try to out last hexes, or I need to be sure that my friends have that covered? Here was a Rt/Me build I was looking at after seeing your suggestion:

[Offering of Spirit][Splinter Weapon][Protective was Kaolai][Soothing Memories][Life][Mend Body and Soul][Waste Not, Want Not][Inspired Hex]

Well, there are a few problems with hex removal in PvE. First is that 95% of the hexes you encounter wont really matter. You might take a migraine here or a blurred vision there, but usually the hexes are meaningless stuff like degen (easily outhealed) snares (slowed movement doesn't hurt nearly as much in PvE as PvP) or random stuff that noone cares about (ignorance sure is scary).

The other problem is that for the 5% of hexes that do matter, your hero will not prioritize them. So you want that migraine off of you? Sorry, your hero used their hex removal to take off parasitic bond.

For these reasons, I usually don't take hex removal on heroes, unless its a very hex heavy area in which case you make a hero focused on hex removal with things like [Divert Hexes]. But put a single weak hex removal on a hero and its going to be wasted most of the time.

Rathgar · Jun 03, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

This is just about exactly what I usually run. IMO if you micro offering of spirit right (which isn't all that hard, cast on recharge when low on energy) its better healing then N/Rt, and it has insane damage as well. Its pretty awesome seeing 6 people on the team with almost max splinter weapon. Even if there is a better healing build a hero could run, I am 100% sure there isn't a better one that also has the same huge damage.

Make sure you have your atts set at 14 channeling and 13 restoration btw, that hits the breakpoint for splinter weapon.

I plan on testing this but do you think [Rejuvenation] would be better than [life] ? Without [spirit to flesh] you have nothing to kill Life and by the time it dies (20 seconds) the healing comes a bit late.

DarkSpirit · Jun 03, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Well, there are a few problems with hex removal in PvE. First is that 95% of the hexes you encounter wont really matter. You might take a migraine here or a blurred vision there, but usually the hexes are meaningless stuff like degen (easily outhealed) snares (slowed movement doesn't hurt nearly as much in PvE as PvP) or random stuff that noone cares about (ignorance sure is scary).

The other problem is that for the 5% of hexes that do matter, your hero will not prioritize them. So you want that migraine off of you? Sorry, your hero used their hex removal to take off parasitic bond.

For these reasons, I usually don't take hex removal on heroes, unless its a very hex heavy area in which case you make a hero focused on hex removal with things like [Divert Hexes]. But put a single weak hex removal on a hero and its going to be wasted most of the time.

I am still skeptical that 95% of hexes do not matter so bringing hex removal skills are worthless. Even if it is a degen hex like [[Conjure Nightmare] or [[Conjure Phantasm], removing them saves you health, taking pressure off your healer, so there is still a value for removing them. The question then becomes, if you dont bring the hex removal skill then what would you bring? An extra healing skill perhaps?

If you let a level 12 Conjure Nightmare run to the end, you lose a total of 208hp. If you let a level 12 Conjure Phantasm run to the end, you lose a total of 130hp. Aren't they worth a hex removal? In the worst case, why not bring [[Cure Hex] for healing as well as hex removal?

Removing degen hexes is, in this sense, healing too. Not to mention having the chance of the hex removal actually removing a deadly hex (e.g. Empathy on your physical, or Diversion/Backfire on your caster, etc.) too.

Super Igor · Jun 03, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Well, this is not exactly a healer but a spirit spammer, with some supporting capabilities, hero would normally mantain all of the enchies all the time so there is a possibility of him not casting those enchants, RL. You need to watch fpor those, cast the yourself, but the rest is decent, bit concerned about enrgy though.

Sab · Jun 04, 2008, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I am still skeptical that 95% of hexes do not matter so bringing hex removal skills are worthless. Even if it is a degen hex like [[Conjure Nightmare] or [[Conjure Phantasm], removing them saves you health, taking pressure off your healer, so there is still a value for removing them. The question then becomes, if you dont bring the hex removal skill then what would you bring? An extra healing skill perhaps?

If you let a level 12 Conjure Nightmare run to the end, you lose a total of 208hp. If you let a level 12 Conjure Phantasm run to the end, you lose a total of 130hp. Aren't they worth a hex removal? In the worst case, why not bring [[Cure Hex] for healing as well as hex removal?

Removing degen hexes is, in this sense, healing too. Not to mention having the chance of the hex removal actually removing a deadly hex (e.g. Empathy on your physical, or Diversion/Backfire on your caster, etc.) too.

Degen is only a threat in mass amounts, and a better way to deal with mass degen is by party healing, as this will mitigate not only hex degen, but condition degen and incidental damage to an easily controllable amount.

Hex removal on heroes is worth it when they can consistently hit important hexes. This usually means elite options that can pop off multiple hexes on a short recharge.

(for the OP)
I suggest not bringing hex removal just for the sake of bringing hex removal. There seems to be an obsession of people slotting one in their build because they feel obligated to. Think about if it's actually worth it, as Rits have a bunch of money skills that fight for the same skill slot.

cyber88 · Jun 04, 2008, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Degen is only a threat in mass amounts, and a better way to deal with mass degen is by party healing, as this will mitigate not only hex degen, but condition degen and incidental damage to an easily controllable amount.

Hex removal on heroes is worth it when they can consistently hit important hexes. This usually means elite options that can pop off multiple hexes on a short recharge.

(for the OP)
I suggest not bringing hex removal just for the sake of bringing hex removal. There seems to be an obsession of people slotting one in their build because they feel obligated to. Think about if it's actually worth it, as Rits have a bunch of money skills that fight for the same skill slot.

I agree wif Sab. Bringing hex removal is juz meh in a heavy hex area. Playing a primary monk myself, whether H/H or wif a full human party, heavy hexes wif multiple degens, the best way is not to remove it but to outlast it. Most of the hex removals skills usually affects oni 1 ally wif the exception to a few skills. (e.g. hex eater signet)

Getting hit by 4-5 party hexes, I tend to find spamming party heals make my group more survivable den using hex removal. In case you didn't read most of the other posts or read up on hex skills on PvE mobs, they like to bring 2-3 hexes & typically fast recharge, cheap & spammable AoE types with 1 damaging AoE degen. The PvE mobs are oso smart enuff to use those spammable hexes to cover their main hex.

If you waste 1 second removing a hex which will immediately be reapplied again (which is most likely the case in PvE) while all other party members are oso under degen pressure, it will increase ur chances of a party wipe, especially in HM.

Although I cannot deny the figures calculated by Darkspirt, I can safely say that wif a decent semi-spammable party heal supported wif cheap & fast spot heals, it can certainly out heal those annoying hexes & the damages dished by the mobs.

DarkSpirit · Jun 04, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyber88

I agree wif Sab. Bringing hex removal is juz meh in a heavy hex area. Playing a primary monk myself, whether H/H or wif a full human party, heavy hexes wif multiple degens, the best way is not to remove it but to outlast it. Most of the hex removals skills usually affects oni 1 ally wif the exception to a few skills. (e.g. hex eater signet)

I agree with Sab that we should not bring hex removal just for the sake of bringing hex removal. But depending on the area (e.g. FoW), bringing hex removal can be important. To make sure that the heroes hit essential hexes, a 6-man build can bring more than one hex removal skills (shaz posted one with 7 hex removal skills in the team). A spammable hex removal skill like [[Signet of Removal] would also help, [[Inspired Hex] is also useful against monster hexes but you may need to micro manage. In hex heavy areas in HM, hexes can overload your healer till she runs dry of energy for any party heals.

Perhaps for most general areas, hex removal is not really necessary but in some hex heavy areas (e.g. getting rid of Wurm Bile anyone? A total of 800 damage per party member, if you let it run till end. And that is on top of other hexes like Suffering. Try party healing through that.) hex removal skills save you ALOT of healing.

Richardt · Jun 04, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Bringing hex removal just to have hex removal is bad.

However some areas do require a fair amount of hex removal. I prefere to keep my healers healing, and I'll sub in some hex removal on another hero (or another hero all together-since hex heavey areas goes hand in hand with caster heavy areas I'll usually have this hero set up with interupts in conjunction with hex removal) to take care of those nasty hexes.

The Meth · Jun 04, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I agree with Sab that we should not bring hex removal just for the sake of bringing hex removal. But depending on the area (e.g. FoW), bringing hex removal can be important. To make sure that the heroes hit essential hexes, a 6-man build can bring more than one hex removal skills (shaz posted one with 7 hex removal skills in the team). A spammable hex removal skill like [[Signet of Removal] would also help, [[Inspired Hex] is also useful against monster hexes but you may need to micro manage. In hex heavy areas in HM, hexes can overload your healer till she runs dry of energy for any party heals.

Perhaps for most general areas, hex removal is not really necessary but in some hex heavy areas (e.g. getting rid of Wurm Bile anyone? A total of 800 damage per party member, if you let it run till end. And that is on top of other hexes like Suffering. Try party healing through that.) hex removal skills save you ALOT of healing.

Thing is, degen only matters if your team is being pressured to death. The rit already has a huge amount of party wide healing through Life and Kaolai, which clean up the random damage/degen everyone takes in a group. And the fact is, most of the times you die in PvE it isn't being pressured to death, its when a level 28+ enemy finds a target without prot and hits it for 150+ damage.

The Wurm Bile is a notable exception, as it is HUGE FRICKEN PRESSURE (caps lock does not express how bad it can be) if your whole team gets it. But if your whole team gets it, you are still pretty much screwed if you had just brought a single target removal anyway. In the one case of wurm bile, just spread out and you are fine. Again, remember heroes have no way to prioritize hexes, there is a 50/50 chance they will be removing the suffering instead of the wurm bile. Would be much better if they had just cast a Spirit Light for a nice 150 heal.

DarkSpirit · Jun 04, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Thing is, degen only matters if your team is being pressured to death. The rit already has a huge amount of party wide healing through Life and Kaolai, which clean up the random damage/degen everyone takes in a group. And the fact is, most of the times you die in PvE it isn't being pressured to death, its when a level 28+ enemy finds a target without prot and hits it for 150+ damage.

The Wurm Bile is a notable exception, as it is HUGE FRICKEN PRESSURE (caps lock does not express how bad it can be) if your whole team gets it. But if your whole team gets it, you are still pretty much screwed if you had just brought a single target removal anyway. In the one case of wurm bile, just spread out and you are fine. Again, remember heroes have no way to prioritize hexes, there is a 50/50 chance they will be removing the suffering instead of the wurm bile. Would be much better if they had just cast a Spirit Light for a nice 150 heal.

I guess that is why shaz has 7 hex removal for his 6-man FoW hero build. When get killed by a level 28+ enemy 150+ damage, dont you think that the degen hexes has a part to play to degen your health to the point where it gets to be a 1-hit kill? You get that because you didnt have enough hex removal and you allow the degen to get to that point.

For Wurm Bile areas, hex removal is kind of necessary IMO, [[Inspired hex] would grant you energy for removing the hex and also recharges INSTANTLY since it is a monster hex. Another place where Inspired hex can be useful, is the Grand Court mission against Last Rites of Torment monster hex. In the worst case, you can always disable the skill and micro it yourself.

I just want to say that Hex Removal skills are not ALWAYS a bad choice in PvE because it is starting to sound like "Hex Removal is always bad and we dont need any hex removal even in hex heavy areas" kind of discussion going on here. And it doesn't have to be on the Rit, I am sure you have other heroes. Even Rac's Paragon team build has alternative for hex heavy areas where he brings [[Empathic Removal] and that doesn't mean his is a bad build.

Even if your hero healer is so super that she/he can single-handed heal through all hexes in this game through party heals (which I very much doubt), that is not the most efficient way to use energy. And your Rit cant single-handedly party heal through a all-party inflicted wurm bile in HM without any deaths, without using hex removal.

The Meth · Jun 04, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Degen is made pretty much irrelevant by strong party wide healing anyway. Pressure only works when the defense cant keep up with the damage and is slowly worn down. This rit build has more then enough energy management to keep up in a fight for a very long time, so its not going to be pressured to death.

I dont think ANYTHING in the game can heal through a party wide inflicted wurm bile, the point is your party shouldn't be stupid enough to get hit by it. At max 2 people on your team should ever be hit by wurm bile. Even if you had divert hexes on your team you would have problems keeping the party healed AND casting divert on recharge AND healing the party from the rest of the damage they take.

The grand court mission and the hex there is a joke, don't bring it up.

Of course hex removal isn't useless, but a single hex removal on a hero who has just as much chance to remove crap as remove something good has to be thought about. Having a 50% chance of being nigh useless every time its cast is a pretty big drawback.

Also, please post this shaz 6 man FoW build. Haven't heard of it.