Curse

Psyko · Jun 18, 2008, 02:21 AM // 02:21

... Rather pompous name for a set of hero builds i made up... i just thought it sounded cool :P

anyway, the point of this post is to share with you a set of hero builds i have just finished testing (in normal mode, no HM yet, i don't really have the time for it atm

)

Well, i searched the forums, didn't find anything like it, so im assuming it doesn't exist.

These builds are designed as a general purpose PvE build set used together, to provide a solid defense coupled with strong damage output.

So, without further ado....

The Shield and Torch Hero Build Set

Paragon
P/W
Command: 10 (9+1)
Leadership: 10 (9+1)
Spear Mastery: 11 (9+2+1)
Tactics: 10
Sup Vigor Rune, All health insigs and runes other than the attribute runes
[skill]"Incoming!"[/skill][skill]"They're On Fire!"[/skill][skill]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill][skill]"Go For The Eyes!"[/skill][skill]Vicious Attack[/skill][skill]Blazing Spear[/skill][skill]Anthem of Weariness[/skill][skill]Signet Of Return[/skill]

Elementalist
E/Me
Fire Magic: 15 (12+2+1)
Energy Storage: 11 (10+1)
Inspiration Magic: 8
Sup Vigor Rune, All health insigs and runes minus the ones for attribute points
[skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Mark of Rodgort[/skill][skill]Liquid Flame[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Channeling[/skill][skill]Energy Tap[/skill]

Necromancer
N/Rt
Restoration Magic: 12
Curses: 10
Soul Reaping: 10 (8+1+1)
two radiant insigs and a sup vigor rune, the rest are health runes and insigs,minus the ones for attributes
[skill]Weapon of Remedy[/skill][skill]vengeful weapon[/skill][skill]Mend Body and Soul[/skill][skill]Spirit Light[/skill][skill]Enfeebling Blood[/skill][skill]Recovery[/skill][skill]Life[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill]

so, the point...

I made this build as an effort to provide an "Imbagon like" level of protection while sticking with H/h, cus i despise pugs and my guildies and i have very differing schedules.

Really the main point is for the ele to do his thing, burning stuff, while the paragon monopolizes on that with "They're on Fire" and "Incoming" to reduce the damage, while the monk takes a nap... no no, jk

in my tests consisted of the three hardest missions i could think of... again normal mode, no testing in hard mode as of yet. They were The Gate of Madness, Imperial Sanctum (killing shiro, in my opinion, is one of the most annoying and challenging things you can do in this game anymore...) and raisu palace. I did all with four henchmen, and got masters on all of them, first try.

But this isnt to brag. Im putting this up here as much to share as to ask your opinion. Anything you think i could change to make this better? More effective? Just plain more Kick Arse? :P Your thoughts and criticisms are much appretiated

a few things before you hack away. I do understand that sup runes on all my heroes is a bit... extreme. however i balance it out with the health mods, and in the field, they do just fine with the health they have.

The Ele build might look like its heavy on E managment. Thats because while i was testing, i saw Vekk was always low on energy (didnt hamper the effectiveness of the build as a whole, but it bothered me) so i added the two inspiration magic skills just before i posted this, im not sure if they are a bit extreme or not.

And lastly, please have an open mind. Im not sure what the opinions of these skills or builds might be, but i try not to think about these skills as good or bad based on looks, but what performs well.

So... your thoughts?

Edit: Changed the builds to my most current iterations
Edit 2: Changed builds again

aleaf92 · Jun 18, 2008, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Take out Leader's Comfort because ur monk should be able to heal him up. With that replace it with Vicious attack or the one the causes deep wound on the next critical hit to synergies with GFTE. You should drop the FGJ for AR because this paragon is gonna have a ton of energy and with WY and GFTE being ur only adrenaline skills FGJ seems too much.

joshuarodger · Jun 18, 2008, 03:05 AM // 03:05

you don't need mark of rod and SF on the ele bar. SF will make everything burn already.

War My Guild · Jun 18, 2008, 03:17 AM // 03:17

May I ask what profession you run with these builds? Just curious... Or does it not matter?

A few comments on the monk bar: Aegis will definitely come in handy, especially in HM, where the physicals hit hard. The elite slot 'Restore Condition' is not the best if you ask me. You could easily swap it out for a really good elite, such as Healer's boon or Word of Healing(switching about attributes and such). Out of WoH or HB, I'd say take WoH so you can run Hybrid with Protection.

The ele: As said, why mark+SF? [liquid flame] comes to mind with most SF builds. I'll be honest when I say I've never seen Channelling on any hero build. I'm pretty sure they won't use it properly, but if you tested and it works, then it's fine.

The para: I think your attributes listed are a little messed. I don't think there's enough attributes for 12 in command, 10 in leadership, 9 in spear and 10 in tactics. Either way, [watch yourself] should not be given that many attribute points because it is the only tactics skill. I don't quite understand why GFTE is in there. This team is all casters and unless you're running a sin or a barrage ranger or something that crits would really help out, it does not have much use.

Not bad builds, but they could be better if you ask me. Love the name too lol

Oh and sorry about reviewing the heroes backwards.

Shaz · Jun 18, 2008, 03:19 AM // 03:19

The build definitely got solid defense but I do not see strong damage output. What is your profession? Easier to give suggestion if I know that. But generally the hench monks are fine for all NM and most HM places, it's usually better to use your hero as a damage dealer than a healer.

With this build I'd put in another paragon rather than a monk, then you'd have bettter attributes split and more damage while not losing the defense. One Paragon can be Incoming with Command/Leadership/Spear Mastery split, the other with Defensive Anthem or some other elite that you want with Tactics/Leadership/Spear Mastery split. With this, you'll have higher Spear Mastery and open slots for attack skills. And they both should have Aggressive Refrain to up the damage even more and faster adrenaline gain rate.

And on the ele, I prefer Power Drain and Leech Signet over those 2 for more energy management.

Superior runes, like any other thing in PvE, will work if you're not totally bad. But unless it's for a major break point of a skill, I wouldn't recommend it, as the additional damage you gain from it is usually not worth the health loss from using it. And you aren't really balanced it out with Survivor Runes and other +hp mod, you still lose 75HP from it.

DarkSpirit · Jun 18, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Damage is below par. Monk heroes use most protection skills poorly and I suspect your monk would face energy problems in HM. I also prefer Savannah Heat to Searing Flames. You also dont have any utility skills.

Having stronger damage is also a good form of defense.

Abedeus · Jun 18, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuarodger

you don't need mark of rod and SF on the ele bar. SF will make everything burn already.

Actually, it burns things that are not burning already. So:

1. Cast SF, 6 seconds burning.
2. During those 6 seconds you recast SF at least 2 times. Monsters take damage.
3. After 3rd cast everything is burning again, but no damage.
4. Repeat steps 3 and 4.

Psyko · Jun 18, 2008, 11:27 AM // 11:27

ah, first off, thanks for the suggestions, ill look into them once i get the chance (super busy schedule, not much time for GW

)

and to answer a few of your questions

My profession is an Assassin, secondary doesn't usually matter because i use all sin skills. As to whether that matters when using this specific build set, im not sure, i don't think it does.

And for those that are saying the damage is sub-par, all i can say is i never really noticed it to be all that bad, although i do play as an assassin so i might be balancing that out a bit. Either way im going to look into adding more DPS.

MoR was put in there to both ensure that as many enemies were burning as possible, as well as, to a lesser extent, make sure the ele was casting SF as much as possible. Originally the SF build had liquid flame and a few other skills that are different, but i switched them out for how i thought they would work. Ill change a few of them back and see how it goes.

As for channeling, that was a last minute addition, so i really dont know if he will use it correctly. Again im going to go and test this again after i make some of the suggested changes.

and thanks again for the input, ill post again when i get more information

Richardt · Jun 18, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Just remember armor bonuses don't stack from skills-so why have Stand Your Ground and WY on the same bar? The longevity of WY will cover the recharge and your para should be able to get that adrenaline up in short time.

As others have said, ditch Leader's Comfort and FGJ. Plus having your command that high for another second of Incomming isn't the greatest-at 10 command it does great-I use it on one of my para heroes. In HM your para hero will get the short end of the stick with a sup. and major rune. I'd tone Command back to 9+1, Leadership 9+1, Tactics 10, Spear 8+1+2 (using a major on the head).

The ele build isn't bad, but heroes with MS is just a recipe for disaster. The idea from your build is to keep everything burning so ToF does it's thing-and while you could smack a group of foes with SF then MS, heroes aren't that bright. They'll more often than not MS things right after the burning from SF runs off (I used to use the same combo on my tank way back in the day-saw this exact behavior). You'd be better served by sticking in Liquid Flame. And I can see the idea behind Rodgorts-are both you and your para using Firey weapons? That'll keep burning going and you won't have to "recharge" the burning req with SF and it can be pure damage.

For the monk bar, it doesn't look bad, but I would go with some sort of hybrid build, with flexibility to add in condition or hex removal depending on the area.

itsvictor · Jun 18, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

superior runes are killing me, especially when HM monsters can one-hit all your heroes after you get dp

Super Igor · Jun 18, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Bad, and everything works on nm.

Psyko · Jun 19, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

Just remember armor bonuses don't stack from skills-so why have Stand Your Ground and WY on the same bar? The longevity of WY will cover the recharge and your para should be able to get that adrenaline up in short time.

As others have said, ditch Leader's Comfort and FGJ. Plus having your command that high for another second of Incomming isn't the greatest-at 10 command it does great-I use it on one of my para heroes. In HM your para hero will get the short end of the stick with a sup. and major rune. I'd tone Command back to 9+1, Leadership 9+1, Tactics 10, Spear 8+1+2 (using a major on the head).

The ele build isn't bad, but heroes with MS is just a recipe for disaster. The idea from your build is to keep everything burning so ToF does it's thing-and while you could smack a group of foes with SF then MS, heroes aren't that bright. They'll more often than not MS things right after the burning from SF runs off (I used to use the same combo on my tank way back in the day-saw this exact behavior). You'd be better served by sticking in Liquid Flame. And I can see the idea behind Rodgorts-are both you and your para using Firey weapons? That'll keep burning going and you won't have to "recharge" the burning req with SF and it can be pure damage.

For the monk bar, it doesn't look bad, but I would go with some sort of hybrid build, with flexibility to add in condition or hex removal depending on the area.

i do know armor bonuses wont stack, and i was thinking about it for awhile, i came up with the fact that SYG will take effect when my heroes arent running around, and WY when they are, but ideally i would like WY, and just get rid of SYG

on the topic of MS. I was looking at that before i tested and wondered if it was completely necessary, but my guildie, who plays an Ele as his main, said that it was fine where it was, so i didnt think much of it.

As for weapons, my para uses a fiery spear, but i dont use fiery daggers (most of the time, i do have a build i play for fun that requires them) I usually use Zealous because the energy i get from that is irreplaceable.

And the monk build was my sorry attempt at a hybrid build... i guess i should have just looked one up :P

Either way, i was planning on taking these into hard mode today, so i will revise the builds in my original post and tell you how HM goes with them.

Edit: Ok, so Hard Mode tests were an utter pile of fail... I tested in Gate of Madness and Imperial Sanctum again. Never finished either. Gate was for a few reasons, but mostly just because of poor positioning around a few of the patrols. I almost killed shiro, untill he started transferring his conditions, and my second healer had been banished.

I wouldnt say its impossible, but i am rather inexperienced with HM.

As for things like vanquishing and HM points farming, and other things along those lines, i cant say, still have not tested them. However, i would say this build makes it quite possible to do.

And a final commentary on the changes. I took your advice direclty, Richardt, and changed the para's attributes to what you suggested. The skills i added were Anthem of Flame, Blazing Spear, and Vicious attack, in hopes that it would synergize well with the general idea of the build. However i think i might be overdoing it with burning.

As for The monk build, i took a WoH hybrid build off of PvXwiki and modified it slightly. This could be another reason i am choking slightly in HM, still not sure, if any of you have a good hero monk build i could use, that would be wonderful.

Channeling specifically i added to the monk build because of the effect it had on the Ele's energy. I did notice a marked increase in his energy during fights, and he was using it (i keep my hero skill bars open while testing, to monitor things). It seems to help my monk, but if the problem isnt the energy, but the healing, then im not sure what to do, aside from getting a better build.

These are my thoughts so far. I want to make this something anyone can use, take into missions, and come out as successful as possible. Basically im trying to make it into a seudo god-mode hero build. So, with that in mind, anything else you guys have to add?

DarkSpirit · Jun 19, 2008, 05:51 AM // 05:51

I tried coming up with a similar build before, mostly to get through general HM areas without a MM and without SY. I ended with something like this:

[SH Ele;OghkowMYoIqDZlYUE7FIDcBGL5C]

[ToF Paragon;OQSlcUlrJdio64utwBZ7wEuHzhl3]

[Necro Healer;OAhiYwh8gtJeSzJ3wccWVp2A]

The performance is quite satisfactory if you play carefully and watch your aggro.

Edit: Borrowing some ideas from the improved version of the build, and coming up with this...

Richardt · Jun 19, 2008, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Both are fairly diverse locations and can require specific team setups to do them. I wouldn't get discouraged based off those results and try doing some 8 man vanquishes with the setup or another HM mission. And for Shiro HM, you'll either need to cut back on the conditions or bring heavy condition removal because, as you said, he'll fling them right back into your face.

It does look like to much burning-Anthem of Flame is overkill-try Anthem of Weariness for some weakness to make the monsters a little less effective.

For the monk build, I used to be a big fan of Aegis, but now I'm a fan of [guardian] and [shield guardian]-both have served me well on my Para and now on my Sin (although not much testing in HM on my Sin yet as he's moderately new).

Although I must say you've inspired me to try [channeling] on my hero monks-do you have to micro it, or will they cast it on recharge?

I wouldn't get discouraged just yet-try a variety of areas and note what went wrong and see what you can do to prevent that from happening again.

DarkSpirit · Jun 19, 2008, 04:28 PM // 16:28

It does quite satisfactory in HM too. I like some aspects of it. I would swap that superior rune from your ele to a minor and replace the res on the monk with [[signet of rejuvenation].

Also your monk's energy is at single digit very often.

Psyko · Jun 19, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

indeed, im making this work no matter what happens >

As for channeling, i only say it looks like it helps with energy, but im none too diligent in recording effects or anything. As for how they use it, they seem to cast it as they go into combat, and recast until combat is over (edit: i ran with them to observe channeling, among a few of the other changes, and thats exactly what they do

and i prefer guardian as well, until i noticed it only effects one ally, whereas aegis effects everyone in shout range, so im not sure which to use, but im going to alternate between them both until i can reach a conclusion.

and i looked over the builds and changed a few things before i logged last night. I replaced dwayna's kiss with rejuv sig, and dismiss condition with extinguish. I figured the sig would help with energy while extinguish would help with conditions because its one from every party member, taking a lot more pressure off. but besides that, i realize dwayna's kiss is quite useful, especially in this build, but im a bit iffy about replacing my monk's rez, mostly out of convention; Any specific reason as to why it would be a good choice?

Quote:

Also our monk's energy is at single digit very often.

was that a general fact of monkery, or an observation?

Sorry if i misunderstood, i tend to do that a lot

Richardt · Jun 19, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

I believe the idea of offloading the rez from your hero monk is so if someone dies they can keep healing while another party member does the rezing.

When I heard about the idea, I was hesitant, but I went ahead and try it (the only rezzes I have in my para's party is Signet of Return on my hero para and whatever the henchies have) and it works fairly well.

I like Guardian over Aegis for a couple reasons:

1) Cheap
2) Quick Recharge
3) Quick Casting Time

As you pointed out, it only affects one person while Aegis supports everyone. But since you should have your squishies behind some sort of aggro holder, the only ones that really need the blocking chance is those doing the holding-thus the entire party effect of Aegis is wasted, and with a long recharge, you'd only see it once or twice during a battle (depending on size that is). Guardian can quickly be placed on all the frontliners and reapplied fairly quickly when it runs out.

DarkSpirit · Jun 19, 2008, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psyko

was that a general fact of monkery, or an observation?

Sorry if i misunderstood, i tend to do that a lot

An observation.

And I agree with Richard, if your monk is trying to res someone, he is not healing the others during that time. That means somebody may die while he is trying to res.

Psyko · Jun 19, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

ah yes, the res point is very true, the guardian one as well.

as for the monk's energy, replacing dwayna's with the signet gave her more energy definitely, she is hovering around... 15 energy during fights now >.>. I wonder if that will change when i replace the rez tho, guess i just have to test.

and i tried vanquishing varajar fells in HM. Was doing well, until i charged into that group of jotun (like i alwasy do X|), a had two deaths, and it started slowly spiraling down from there. I think i would have been fine had i taken it a little more carefully (meaning carefully at all

, sometimes i wonder if i am playing the wrong class....).

I also did DoA with a guildie for kicks... we failed horribly

either way, a few skill changes here and there and i think this build is as good as its gonna get. Good for vanquishing, HM missions if you are careful, and generally owning NM... but who doesn't do that already? >.>

edit: im actually going to try that necro version of the WoH build to see how that changes things...

Richardt · Jun 20, 2008, 02:11 AM // 02:11

So I threw Channeling onto my Necro and Monk hero, and wow-both barely dropped below 50% energy, and mostly ran at near full.

Both cast it upon entering battle, and maintained pretty consistantly (with the exception of the monk-but that's because she was busy healing

).