Curse

isamu kurosawa · Jun 29, 2008, 10:43 AM // 10:43

This is something i posted in the treat titled 'A "Good" PvE Mesmer Build - A Bounty of Sorts'. There are a few decent builds posted there so you should check it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

I just completed almost every dungeon in HM with h/h on my mesmer using a supplementary build to fuel 3 discord spikers. Here it is if anyone is interested.

[build prof=me/n fast=12+1 illusion=12+1+1 curses=3][fragility][power return][necrosis][you move like a dwarf][shared burden][weaken armor][illusion of pain][signet of corruption][/build]

Usage is pretty simple, Its your job to make sure foes are hexed and suffering a condition at all times while assisting the spike with necrosis. You can also use [[you move like a dwarf] as an interrupt if needed.
Shared burden, althoguh normally not a very good elite shines in this setup as its a cheap AoE hex that lasts a very long time while keeping foes snared. Weaken armour is there are a cheap AoE condition.

Here are the hero builds.

[build prof=n/mo death=12+1+1 healing=9 soul=8+1 curses=5][discord][enfeebling blood][animate shambling horror][death nova][malign intervention][rip enchantment][veratas gaze][dwaynas sorrow][/build]

[build prof=n/mo death=12+1+1 prot=9 soul=9+1][discord][animate shambling horror][blood of the master][death nova][veratas aura][resurrection signet][aegis][protective spirit][/build]

[build prof=n/rt death=12+1+1 soul=8+1 restoration=12][discord][mend body and soul][spirit light][vengeful weapon][life][foul feast][protective was kaolai][flesh of my flesh][/build]

Res options can be changed around of course, as can the build concepts. This setup offers a large army of minions in no time at all, great support and healing, enchant removal, backup hex+condition and even more damage with death nova.

Heroes are amazing at using discord now. if you use [[fragility] & [[you move like a dwarf] on a single target they will proceed to spike it in unison.
You can also increase their effectiveness by binding their discord to your keyboard. (gaming keyboards make it even better.)

The skillbars look a litlle cluttered but make full useage of a heroes strengths while being free from their weaknesses. The dungeons i did compelete with this setup where a breeze. It seems spike realy does work in PvE, especially when you can spike down a foe every 2 seconds.

|pyro| · Jun 29, 2008, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

I have been playing my Mesmer lately and I am finding a hard to time to synergize with my heroes now that I am not a paragon.
Does anyone have a good team build or tips for mesmer + heroes?

[build box name="Ogden" prof=Mo/A heal=12+2+1 div=12 prot=3][Ethereal Light][Dwayna's Kiss][orison of Healing][Healing Touch][Healing Seed][Cure Hex][Healer's Boon][Resurrection Chant][/build] General healing build, works ok for my standards.

[build box name="Olias" prof=Ne/A blood=12+2+1 soul=11+1][Well of Power][Shadow Strike][Lifebane Strike][Vampiric Gaze][Life Siphon][Well of Blood][Blood Ritual][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]The necro build, more the role of a supporter but also some damage. WoP provides a nice bonus. Energy should not be a problem anymore. If there are no cropses I use the general SS build.

[build box name="Minon Master" prof=ne/Mo dead=11+3+1 soul=9+1 prot=9][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Extinguish][Protective Spirit][Aegis][Resurrection Chant][/build] The Minion Master, creating hordes of little monsters + offers protection with protection prayers skills.

During high paced battles the necros don't contradict each other, and can generaly coexist quite well, if you think that the Blood Necro is using all your corpses take [Soul Leech] insted or just mico manage WoP.

I usualy run this and its more supited against casters, some skills may vary from location to location used.
[build box name="Little Hex" prof=Me/A fast=9+1 dom=12+1+2 deadly=12 asura=9][Assassin's Promise][Cry of Pain][power spike][Guilt][Empathy][Backfire][pain inverter][resurrection signet][/build]

I usualy use this against melee mobs but casters wand constantly when not attacting so it takes them down too. energy is not a problem, deep wound/blind and other condition spread is also a good support for the team.
[build box name="Little Hex" prof=Me/Mo fast=9+1 ill=12+1+2 inspiration=10+1][Power Drain][Ineptitude][Phantom Pain][Drain Delusions][Epidemic][Wandering eye][Clumsiness][Rebirth][/build]

depending on the mobs you will be fighting and your build you can tswitcha skill or 2 for one of the following[Shatter Hex][Inspired Hex] or [Shatter Enchantment][Drain Enchantment].

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 29, 2008, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

That is over generalizing. For example, is [[Finish Him!] conditional or not? The 50%hp would be a condition.

How about [[Pain Inverter]? That doesn't work much against monsters with degen hexes. How about [[Cry of Pain]? A condition for the huge AoE damage is mesmer hex.

PvE skills can be conditional too. Skill bars with 3 PvE skills doesn't necessarily imply a better build than skill bars with 2 PvE skills. The design of the skill bar is more important.

You took it way too literally. And I honestly hardly consider the "50%" thing on "Finish Him" a condition cause it's so damn easy to meet. Compare a mesmer's direct damage to that and you'll see that they're often more conditional. In fact, they hardly have any direct damage at all, which is the point I'm trying to make.

I just really can't see myself playing a Mes without pve skills, because then a majority of your arsenal is shutdown skills that are sometimes not needed in PvE.

DarkSpirit · Jun 29, 2008, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

You took it way too literally. And I honestly hardly consider the "50%" thing on "Finish Him" a condition cause it's so damn easy to meet. Compare a mesmer's direct damage to that and you'll see that they're often more conditional. In fact, they hardly have any direct damage at all, which is the point I'm trying to make.

I just really can't see myself playing a Mes without pve skills, because then a majority of your arsenal is shutdown skills that are sometimes not needed in PvE.

Mesmers already have good damage skills, like [[Wandering Eye], [[Clumsiness], [[Mistrust], [[Spiritual Pain], etc. But mesmers also have nice PvE skills like [[Cry of Pain], which is almost too good not to bring along, and [[Ether Nightmare]. The EOTN PvE skills are the same for all classes.

The problem with PvE mesmers is not because their skills are conditional, because many of their conditions are easily met anyway. But many of the mesmer's skills are indirectly nerfed in PvE. For an example, monsters have an extra +1 energy regen and a larger energy pull, so energy denial skills become less effective when used against monsters, compared to when these skills are used in PvP.

Having played a mesmer since Prophecies, I have been clearing campaigns before PvE skills were even invented. PvE skills are not necessary for a mesmer in PvE, but they certainly help.

upier · Jun 29, 2008, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You dont need to use all 3 PvE skills. Most of the time, I only need 1 or 2. That said, if you can make your build more powerful with 3 then feel free to use 3, but having 3 PvE skills doesn't always imply a better skill bar.

Because of how insanely overpowered PvE skills are - you'd want to build your bar around the 3 PvE skills, rather then (possibly) adding PvE skills to your pre-existing build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Sabway is ok as a generic 3-hero build but it can usually be optimized to kill faster.

Optimization is based on the full party.
That is why a generic build that works (yet it CAN be improved!) is one of the best options to be listed here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Mesmers already have good damage skills, like [[Wandering Eye], [[Clumsiness], [[Mistrust], [[Spiritual Pain], etc. But mesmers also have nice PvE skills like [[Cry of Pain], which is almost too good not to bring along, and [[Ether Nightmare]. The EOTN PvE skills are the same for all classes.

Having played a mesmer since Prophecies, I have been clearing campaigns before PvE skills were even invented. PvE skills are not necessary for a mesmer in PvE, but they certainly help.

PvE leaves room for error.
And leaving out godly skills because they "aren't necessary" constitutes that error.

DarkSpirit · Jun 29, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Because of how insanely overpowered PvE skills are - you'd want to build your bar around the 3 PvE skills, rather then (possibly) adding PvE skills to your pre-existing build.

Your argument has an underlying assumption that all PvE skills are useful in all builds. If that were the case, before the 3-PvE skills limit that came out with EOTN release, why didnt every skill bar bring 4 PvE skills for the primary and secondary class before then?

What I am saying is, if bringing 3 would give you the best possible build then go ahead and bring 3. But you shouldn't be trying to FORCE 3 PvE skills into every build just because you think 2 is always sub-optimal.

upier · Jun 29, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Your argument has an underlying assumption that all PvE skills are useful in all builds. If that were the case, before the 3-PvE skills limit that came out with EOTN release, why didnt every skill bar bring 4 PvE skills for the primary and secondary class before then?

What I am saying is, if bringing 3 would give you the best possible build then go ahead and bring 3. But you shouldn't be trying to FORCE 3 PvE skills into every build just because you think 2 is always sub-optimal.

You are saying is that the mesmer has godly PvE builds that include less then 3 PvE skills and could NOT be improved by using 3 PvE skills? And that those builds are better then other builds that do run 3 PvE skills?
What builds would that be?

DarkSpirit · Jun 29, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You are saying is that the mesmer has godly PvE builds that include less then 3 PvE skills and could NOT be improved by using 3 PvE skills? And that those builds are better then other builds that do run 3 PvE skills?
What builds would that be?

If a build with more PvE skills are always better than one with fewer PvE skills, are you saying if the 3-PvE skills limit is removed your mesmer would ALWAYS have 8 PvE skills on her bar? If that is the case then you might as well not play a mesmer because what makes a mesmer unique would be almost totally gone when that happens.

There was a long period of time when we can have 4 PvE skills per skill bar, yet most popular builds at that time, dont even have close to that many.

Even though PvE skills are powerful, they dont cover all build situations completely. There are still alot more non-PvE skills than PvE skills in this game, many non-PvE skills have useful effects that cant even be replicated by any PvE skills so it doesn't mean more PvE skills would always win.

kostolomac · Jun 29, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

For heroes in NM i mostly use a N/Rt healer , MM and a SF hero. I replace the SF hero with SS curses necro in HM.
My favorite builds for mesmers are these:
1. [Echo dom+cop;OQNCAswkGgLw0zMgNIa0FgSA] overall shutdown , +2+1 to dom , +1 to insp and fc
2. [AP pve;OQdTAQB7VaByA0GcDw0BnCuUAAA] my AP nuke build , sometimes I put the ebon assassin for fun , same runes
The first one is my favorite , I don't use it much in HM , but it's very effective in dungeons.
The AP build isn't the most effective , but I like it , it gets the job done and it's fun.

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 29, 2008, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Mesmers already have good damage skills, like [[Wandering Eye], [[Clumsiness], [[Mistrust], [[Spiritual Pain], etc. But mesmers also have nice PvE skills like [[Cry of Pain], which is almost too good not to bring along, and [[Ether Nightmare]. The EOTN PvE skills are the same for all classes.

Wandering Eye is good. Clumsiness is decent, adjacent range is pretty small. The damage on Mistrust isn't that great. Spiritual Pain sucks after the nerf. Cry of Pain is a PvE skill. Degen is always bad in PvE, especially when it takes up a pve-skill slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

The problem with PvE mesmers is not because their skills are conditional, because many of their conditions are easily met anyway. But many of the mesmer's skills are indirectly nerfed in PvE. For an example, monsters have an extra +1 energy regen and a larger energy pull, so energy denial skills become less effective when used against monsters, compared to when these skills are used in PvP.

Even without extra energy, E-denial would be useless in PvE. In PvP, you have to get through many layers of defense to score a kill. E-denial helps get through those layers. That kind of defense doesn't exist in PvE so it's alot faster and easier to just blow your way through. That's where Mesmers become less attractive than other classes in PvE.

Many Mes skills have potential to be great in PvE, but all they need is a few tweaks. Backfire is a good basic one to start with - lower cost to 10e, shorten the recharge, lower the casttime....then you have a good skill that could be a staple for Dom mesmers. Anet needs to take advantage of the PvE/PvP split. The skills you listed are some that have potential to be good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Having played a mesmer since Prophecies, I have been clearing campaigns before PvE skills were even invented. PvE skills are not necessary for a mesmer in PvE, but they certainly help

There's plenty of horrible builds out there that have been known to get very very far into the game.

upier · Jun 29, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If a build with more PvE skills are always better than one with fewer PvE skills, are you saying if the 3-PvE skills limit is removed your mesmer would ALWAYS have 8 PvE skills on her bar? If that is the case then you might as well not play a mesmer because what makes a mesmer unique would be almost totally gone when that happens.

What makes the mesmer unique doesn't work in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

There was a long period of time when we can have 4 PvE skills per skill bar, yet most popular builds at that time, dont even have close to that many.
Even though PvE skills are powerful, they dont cover all build situations completely. There are still alot more non-PvE skills than PvE skills in this game, many non-PvE skills have useful effects that cant even be replicated by any PvE skills so it doesn't mean more PvE skills would always win.

Two problems:
1. although PvE skills are overpowered - that doesn't mean that they can not be shitty. BUT there are more then 3 VERY good PvE only skills at this point in time.
2. mesmer skills. The mesmer just lacks GOOD skills that "have useful effects that cant even be replicated by any PvE skills". (Which is the biggest problem. You have effects that are insanely sweet - but it's because of that effect that the skill attributes (casting time, cost, recharge) have to be toned down - and then we are left with such crap as [ineptitude].)
That is NOT true for all classes. The mesmer though - being build from ground up for PvP - does suffer from that.

kostolomac · Jun 29, 2008, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What makes the mesmer unique doesn't work in PvE.

You have effects that are insanely sweet - but it's because of that effect that the skill attributes (casting time, cost, recharge) have to be toned down - and then we are left with such crap as [ineptitude].)

In EotN in does to some extent ,thats why I like EotN.
The problem with [Ineptitude] , [Wandering Eye] and [Clumsiness] are the durations , recharge and in the case of [Clumsiness] energy cost , 10e for a skill that is worse than wandering eye is just stupid.

isamu kurosawa · Jun 29, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

In EotN in does to some extent ,thats why I like EotN.
The problem with [Ineptitude] , [Wandering Eye] and [Clumsiness] are the durations , recharge and in the case of [Clumsiness] energy cost , 10e for a skill that is worse than wandering eye is just stupid.

[[wandering eye] and even more so [[clumsiness] are great skills in pve. If [[ineptitude] got the same treatment then it too would be very useful in pve.

the last skill changes to clumsiness and wandering eye where a great example of skill balancing for mesmer. a nerf in pvp yet a puff in pve to keep the profession balanced in both modes.
Its just a shame we don't see more updates like that.

**cosyfiep** · Jun 29, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

I have 3 mesmers (and I NEVER pvp)....
my domination mesmer has ranger as a secondary so she does mostly interupting (has empathy for the melee mobs, guilt/shame for the casters...and interupts).
my illusionist uses conjure, ineptitude, and clumsiness (and changes the others depending on the area).

I use for my heroes : dunky, sosuke, and olias....for henchies a monk, melee and 2 tba depending on the area again.

I have never had a problem not being 'synergized' with my heroes---

so it all really depends on the area/mobs and such....

DarkSpirit · Jun 29, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

2. mesmer skills. The mesmer just lacks GOOD skills that "have useful effects that cant even be replicated by any PvE skills". (Which is the biggest problem. You have effects that are insanely sweet - but it's because of that effect that the skill attributes (casting time, cost, recharge) have to be toned down - and then we are left with such crap as [ineptitude].)
That is NOT true for all classes. The mesmer though - being build from ground up for PvP - does suffer from that.

Yes the skill attributes are toned down but that doesn't always mean they are unusable. Take [[Cry of Frustration] for example. It is nice for its AoE interrupt and damage and there are no PvE-only skills with that useful effect. Naturally, ANet would not make it spammable, but you can add [[Mantra of Recovery] and bring its recharge down to a decent 10s.

Look at energy management skills for the mesmer, there are not that many good energy management skills in the world of PvE-only skills.

It is still not that easy to blow through some bosses in HM, this is when ANet can help the mesmer's energy denial skills (with the PvE/PvP split) to make them really awesome in PvE HM. Currently, they have indirectly nerfed PvE mesmers by granting monsters extra energy regen and energy pool. If ANet would do a good job for the mesmers with the PvE/PvP split, there would be less need to rely on PvE-only skills.

Back to the question of heroes, I use an adapted sabway variant for my AP necro, which can also be adapted to AP mesmers:

[minion bomber MM;OANDUshtSLVVBoBLCJgKgGNVVA]
[blood stained damage MM;OANDUslfSLVUBHVKgKCVV1DBEA]
[sab curse necro;OAhkYgHcoIqUegdQZwuDjIGTVVyF]

This is a dual MM build with the high level minions MM, as the only MM, having a blood stained insignia, so he takes precedence. When his energy level is low or his minion skills are in recharge is when the low level minion bomber MM has the chance to exploit the corpses. His energy level is also fueled by the minion bomber. Fiends damage is boosted further by the curse necro. Obviously this build only works well in places with enough exploitable corpses. The healing is also good enough that I only need to bring Mhenlo along as the only healer and they kill very quickly in HM with many minions attacking a target hexed with barbs.

Cebe · Jun 30, 2008, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

I have been playing my Mesmer lately and I am finding a hard to time to synergize with my heroes now that I am not a paragon.
Does anyone have a good team build or tips for mesmer + heroes?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10293264

See section 6. I love those kind of builds, and with a human mesmer it makes them easier I feel...simply call who you're casting [[Fevered Dreams] on and the heroes will lay down the conditions.

upier · Jun 30, 2008, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Yes the skill attributes are toned down but that doesn't always mean they are unusable. Take [Cry of Frustration] for example. It is nice for its AoE interrupt and damage and there are no PvE-only skills with that useful effect. Naturally, ANet would not make it spammable, but you can add [[Mantra of Recovery] and bring its recharge down to a decent 10s.

Yes, CoF is nice - but is it CoP nice?
Do we see AEcho/Echo CoF spammage?
CoF is useful - just not worth it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Look at energy management skills for the mesmer, there are not that many good energy management skills in the world of PvE-only skills.

My ritualist uses no e-management skills (outside of AP) and he manages just fine. Same thing with my mesmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

It is still not that easy to blow through some bosses in HM, this is when ANet can help the mesmer's energy denial skills (with the PvE/PvP split) to make them really awesome in PvE HM. Currently, they have indirectly nerfed PvE mesmers by granting monsters extra energy regen and energy pool. If ANet would do a good job for the mesmers with the PvE/PvP split, there would be less need to rely on PvE-only skills.

E-denial isn't useless because foes have additional regen.
It's useless because the foes do not live long enough to feel the pain of having no energy.
E-denial would be worth it if we'd have skills that would cause foes (AoE!) to lose 50+ energy with one skill.

DarkSpirit · Jun 30, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yes, CoF is nice - but is it CoP nice?
Do we see AEcho/Echo CoF spammage?
CoF is useful - just not worth it.

Comparing CoF and CoP are like comparing apples and oranges. People take CoF for its AoE interrupt while people take CoP mainly for its AoE damage.

Quote:

My ritualist uses no e-management skills (outside of AP) and he manages just fine. Same thing with my mesmer.

Perhaps, but heroes are not like human players, they are worse off when it comes to energy discipline and they tend to spam their skills. AP builds also depends on the rest of the team configuration and the area.

Quote:

E-denial isn't useless because foes have additional regen.
It's useless because the foes do not live long enough to feel the pain of having no energy.
E-denial would be worth it if we'd have skills that would cause foes (AoE!) to lose 50+ energy with one skill.

Even if the foes live long enough, the extra energy regen would make it more difficult for your e-denial skills. Remember, currently the mesmer's e-denial skills are balanced against PvP scenarios. If they provide one e-denial skill to take away 50+e from AoE enemies, it would not be balanced for PvP. This means PvE mesmers have to be held back as long as their skills are linked to PvP.

upier · Jun 30, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Comparing CoF and CoP are like comparing apples and oranges. People take CoF for its AoE interrupt while people take CoP mainly for its AoE damage.

But is the AoE interrupt effect of CoF good so good that people would consider AEcho/Echo-ing it?
That's the issue.
It might be good - but it's not worth it.
So the good issue that can not be achieved with PvE only skills - despite it being nice - is obsolete. Hence why I strongly suggest using 3 PvE only skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Perhaps, but heroes are not like human players, they are worse off when it comes to energy discipline and they tend to spam their skills. AP builds also depends on the rest of the team configuration and the area.

Yeah, they are even worse at inspiration e-management.
[Power drain] anyone?

So there aren't many e-management options among PvE skills. The point was that ... you kinda don't need them.
Once again - it's not bad - just obsolete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Even if the foes live long enough, the extra energy regen would make it more difficult for your e-denial skills. Remember, currently the mesmer's e-denial skills are balanced against PvP scenarios. If they provide one e-denial skill to take away 50+e from AoE enemies, it would not be balanced for PvP. This means PvE mesmers have to be held back as long as their skills are linked to PvP.

I never said it would be a PvP skill.
It would be a PvE only skill - foes would still die in 3ish secs - it's just that this time they would die without having any energy.
It wouldn't make the slightest difference - it would just be e-denial "balanced" for PvE mobs.

Ohh and your bolded part is important.
Once again - that is why 3 PvE only skills are good.

Swamp Fox · Jun 30, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

for my mesmer i use an AP mes with finish him(Max Norn) and fragility(15 illusion), when a monster(any monster) hit 50% health you have a 120 damage+deepwound and cracked armor spike, equals good game time to spam on the next monster

oh yea and as for heroes, i filled my HM handbook completely using H/H, with my prot nec, Jagged MM, and WoH hybrid hero