Curse

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Well the difference between SH and Barbs is Barbs can have it's damage potential multiplied by the amount of physical damage populated on the target, whereas SH is limited in the option of strength.

And Darkspirit, where is the proof this is killing faster than Sabway...?

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Well the difference between SH and Barbs is Barbs can have it's damage potential multiplied by the amount of physical damage populated on the target, whereas SH is limited in the option of strength.

And Darkspirit, where is the proof this is killing faster than Sabway...?

The proof is in my game, for those who actually tried it. Also Barbs can be removed and Dalada Uplands creatures have smite hex.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

5 second recharge.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

5 second recharge.

If the hero is not busy casting SS or something else.

To test it is simple, just replace the the SS hero in sabway with:

[SH hero;OghkowMYoIqDZlYUE1FIDcBGL5C]

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Yet you lose the best damage mitigation in the game in terms of PvE and cause scatter reducing the effectiveness of that build.

Oh yeah, Rodgort's Invocation > Fireball.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Yet you lose the best damage mitigation in the game in terms of PvE and cause scatter reducing the effectiveness of that build.

Oh yeah, Rodgort's Invocation > Fireball.

Sure, if your energy keeps up, switch Fireball for RI for even more awesomeness

. Just take a weakness skill on your own character, or go Ursan, should be simple enough.

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 21, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

I honestly don't see why it'd be surprising that a fire ele could kill faster than a curses nec in some areas. It's not like once you put Barbs on a target, all the minions instantly jump on that target. It does have potential, but you can't always expect a hero to meet that potential.

I can easily see a fire ele outdoing a curse nec in Dalada Uplands - the charr often bunch up really tight, and last time I checked their caster armor was pretty low. Still though, ele's arn't always the best choice.....and neither are curse heroes

The part where people fail is when they think that you must put one of those on every team build. Ele damage is often reduced by armor, and the damage from the nec is sometimes too conditional. I'd probably take an Rt/N with Enfeebling Blood just for a 14spec Splinter Weapon.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

I recently vanquished Dalada, and they basically spike themselves down when you put punishing hexes like Insideous and SS on them.
Even moreso when you use PI.

However, with their huge armour I prefer to hit them with Splinter aswell as let themselves commit suicide. Spirit Bond / SoA = awesomesauce.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Cathode is right, the charrs tend to bunch themselves tight, especially the caster group that is just outside Doomlore shrine in Dalada. Makes them perfect target for SH.

And is it really so hard to believe that such an Ele hero (further taking Tyla's suggestion on RI):

[SH Ele;OghkowMYoIqDZlYUE7FIDcBGL5C]

...can kill faster than the SS curse necro?

I know it doesn't have that elegant synergy concept and Ele doesn't have soul reaping, but heck it kills mobs a lot faster.

Shaz · Jun 21, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Then it goes back to my same question, why is this killing faster than sabway?

Oh ok, I was just stating that Physical heavy team is better than Caster heavy team in term of damage. I don't care if SH eles kill faster than Sab's build, many build can kill faster than Sab's build. Sab's build is just a good all-around build for most places. Sab's build has some buffs for physical but it isn't a physical heavy build anyway.

And yea, I don't think you should put Barbs on your build just for the minions... If you don't have at least 2-3 melee/paragon, it's not worth it to bring it.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

I would rather have mediocre offense, extreme defense and really strong utility all in one build, that doesn't cause scatter that kills the highest point of damage, thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

BRB SKILLS RECHARGING LOLOLOLOLOL

Maybe the kill speed is faster, but it can be increased by the amount of melee pounding on it in order to beat the speed of killing. Sure, the chances of minions coming onto the enemy might be slim, but once they do? What about if it's a single enemy which is extremely difficult to kill left? GG.

And with more physicals, it improves in power.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

Oh ok, I was just stating that Physical heavy team is better than Caster heavy team in term of damage. I don't care if SH eles kill faster than Sab's build, many build can kill faster than Sab's build. Sab's build is just a good all-around build for most places. Sab's build has some buffs for physical but it isn't a physical heavy build anyway.

And yea, I don't think you should put Barbs on your build just for the minions... If you don't have at least 2-3 melee/paragon, it's not worth it to bring it.

That makes sense to me. I was comparing the build against sabway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Maybe the kill speed is faster, but it can be increased by the amount of melee pounding on it in order to beat the speed of killing. Sure, the chances of minions coming onto the enemy might be slim, but once they do? What about if it's a single enemy which is extremely difficult to kill left? GG.

Melee heroes have their pathing problems which I am sure you are well aware of. Seeing them run around doing nothing as the Charr Flameshielders cast AoE on them, just makes me sad.

Single enemy is not difficult to kill, even with this build, combining with minions to wall them in. I have seen melee monsters fleeing from Searing Heat, then die at a distance as burning took over to finish them off. In any case, the rule of thumb is, not to chase a fleeing monster unless it is the last monster left.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 11:06 PM // 23:06

I was mainly talking about human melee. Yeah, this is the H/H forum, but this topic isn't necesarily about it being hero melee.

Don't forget you can always use Paragons too.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I was mainly talking about human melee. Yeah, this is the H/H forum, but this topic isn't necesarily about it being hero melee.

Don't forget you can always use Paragons too.

Well yes, I would agree with you on human melees. I have been talking under the context of H/H teams and sabway. Paragon henchies are fine if the campaign provides them (i.e. NF only). Paragon heroes would work too but we only have 3 hero slots to plan for.

To be effective, people normally bring at least one more support hero to accompany the physical attackers (e.g. orders derv, splinter, barbs, etc.). Rac's build is just such a build. I just wanted to point out that a 3-hero build with an Ele can also be viable in HM.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Well Splinter is already the most powerful AoE skill in the game. I'll stick with wanding using that, kthx.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Well Splinter is already the most powerful AoE skill in the game. I'll stick with wanding using that, kthx.

Splinter is indeed nice but it is just 1 skill that can brought by sab's curse necro as much as it can be brought by the Ele.

The other skills in the skill bar makes the difference.

Trvth Jvstice · Jun 21, 2008, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Well Splinter is already the most powerful AoE skill in the game. I'll stick with wanding using that, kthx.

No, [[Mark of Pain] is the most powerful AoE skill in the game. Though I wouldn't trust a hero to use it properly.

Tyla · Jun 22, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

lol.

Mark of Pain has a long recharge and ontop of that is removable. If it was spammable, maybe it would be better, but you can consistently keep Splinter Weapon up on an ally and maybe many more if you're using a 40/40 set. Not to mention Splinter Weapon can be used as splash damage via AoE attacks suck as Barrage, Volley, Cyclone Axe, Whirlwind Attack, Crude Swing, Triple Chop and scythes in general.

As for the SH, Dark, I'm going to stick by this: Your skills have a heavy recharge time, and your damage mitigation is minimal in that build unlike the SS build. I would only consider a nuker like that in TanknSpank, and in Hard Mode the yellow numbers from elemental damage have decreased easily.

The Meth · Jun 22, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

No, [[Mark of Pain] is the most powerful AoE skill in the game. Though I wouldn't trust a hero to use it properly.

In the absolute best circumstances with lots of minions/players hitting a target, yes. Splinter Weapon is far better in most cases though because it is equally powerful in all circumstances. But why stop there? Absolute best is Splinters + MoPs, Splinter aoe damage will trigger mark of pain and the damage is insane.

SH does decent damage. Then you are stuck with a useless character for 20s. Thats a fun situation. Splinter does barely less base damage, is armor ignoring (though I think some people overestimate enemy armor, its not THAT much greater then player armor), also has the player's base damage added in, non elite, 5s recharge. Did I miss anything?

Sabway is a slow offensive build, beating it in killing speed doesn't mean much.

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 22, 2008, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Splinter actually does armor-ignoring physical damage, so it also triggers MoP.

imo, without Assassin's Promise recharging it, MoP sucks pretty bad. It'd have to get a huge buff just to compete with Splinter. Seeing as Splinter has caused probs in PvP for so long, and MoP being in a line that's hex/antimelee-based, I don't think Anet would be excited about buffing it.