Curse

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Attack skills' +damage isn't.

SH is an alright elite skill, but SF and SH belong on heroes because a player should be able to run an MB bar decently.

We are talking about hero builds here. We all already know that players can use many skills effectively that heroes cant.

SH kills alot faster in HM than a Splinter Paragon. You should try it out.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

You're comparing an elite to a non elite.

And I thought it was established that Splinter Weapon deals the most AoE damage in the game.

Either way, why would you put Splinter Weapon on a Paragon bar?

Oya, Splinter Weapon also has a lower recharge aswell. GG.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

You're comparing an elite to a non elite.

And I thought it was established that Splinter Weapon deals the most AoE damage in the game.

Either way, why would you put Splinter Weapon on a Paragon?

Use Cruel Spear if you prefer. You keep telling me that the fire ele is bad because the skills are affected by armor but you still cant explain why it kills faster than sabway.

You can theorize all you want but it is the in-game results that ultimately matters don't you think?

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Who said anything about Sabway?

Elemental damage sucks in HM because of the stupid high armour.

Sabway has alot of armour-ignoring damage. SS, Barbs, Mark of Pain, Splinter, WoR and Death Nova by the way. How the hell can it kill faster than Sabway?

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Who said anything about Sabway?

Elemental damage sucks in HM because of the stupid high armour.

Sabway has alot of armour-ignoring damage. SS, Barbs, Mark of Pain, Splinter, WoR and Death Nova by the way. How the hell can it kill faster than Sabway?

Which is why you should try it and give a fair judgement. I can understand that against fire resistant creatures the results can be worse. But generally, it tends to kill faster. Sabway has a healer, MM, and curse necros, all this does is replacing the curse necro with a SH ele. It is not too different, but generally, it kills faster.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

What fair judgement is that then?

Armour-ignoring damage > damage affected by armour, hands down.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

What fair judgement is that then?

Armour-ignoring damage > damage affected by armour, hands down.

If the damage after armor is still much greater over time than the armor ignoring damage over the same amount of time, then the non armor ignoring damage is better.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Yes, I know, because getting 9-10 minion hitting a target with Barbs (140 damage every 2 seconds minus the minion damage), and if blocking triggering Defile Defenses (1000 damage every 2 seconds providing every attack is blocked), how would that deal less damage than armour-affecting damage?

As for Splinter Weapon, you can consistently keep it up on anyone. You get 47 damage (Providing it came off a Rit with 14 in Channeling), 5 times on 3 enemies ontop of deep wound on the first target if you are deep wounding that target. Not to mention it can be reapplies easily. 250'ish damage every 5 seconds on an AoE radius.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Yes, I know, because getting 9-10 minion hitting a target with Barbs (140 damage every 2 seconds minus the minion damage), and if blocking triggering Defile Defenses (1000 damage every 2 seconds providing every attack is blocked), how would that deal less damage than armour-affecting damage?

As for Splinter Weapon, you can consistently keep it up on anyone. You get 47 damage (Providing it came off a Rit with 14 in Channeling), 5 times on 3 enemies ontop of deep wound on the first target if you are deep wounding that target. Not to mention it can be reapplies easily. 250'ish damage every 5 seconds on an AoE radius.

Heroes dont make the most efficient damage dealers. And it is the final damage numbers that matters more, not whether it is armor ignoring or not.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Did you ignore 99% of that post or what? If you can come up with SH beating 140 damage every 2 seconds tell me now. Same goes for Death Nova. When a minion explodes you get AoE poison and ~100 damage.

Just because heroes don't make the most efficient damage dealers is not the point. The point is that damage that doesn't ignore armour is weaker in general compared to damage that does have armour going against it.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Did you ignore 99% of that post or what? If you can come up with SH beating 140 damage every 2 seconds tell me now. Same goes for Death Nova. When a minion explodes you get AoE poison and ~100 damage.

Just because heroes don't make the most efficient damage dealers is not the point. The point is that damage that doesn't ignore armour is weaker in general compared to damage that does have armour going against it.

Sure, and you can nicely assumed all the 10 minions lining up perfectly surrounding that 1 target and all 100% of their attacks are blocked and they all die to give a fantastic death nova that all hits every single creature. Theorize all you want with your perfect assumptions and forget about real situations.

And by the way, his build also has death nova and minions in case you forgot.

legacyofkain85 · Jun 21, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

armor ignoring damage for hm,non armor ignoring damage for nm ,i belive its quite easy to understand,btw fire ele with sh+hm=mobs scattering u would be lucky if they would be caught in the second wave of sh

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Sure, and you can nicely assumed all the 10 minions lining up perfectly surrounding that 1 target and all 100% of their attacks are blocked and they all die to give a fantastic death nova that all hits every single creature. Theorize all you want with your perfect assumptions and forget about real situations.

There are times when that happens, and you still get decent damage off Barbs with only like 2 minions. Barbs punishes them for getting hit, DEfile Defenses punishes them for blocking. It's a win / win situation either way.

Quote:

And by the way, his build also has death nova and minions in case you forgot.

Your point? Doesn't stop it being armour-ignoring damage that punishes the enemy for killing a minion now, does it?

Abedeus · Jun 21, 2008, 08:23 PM // 20:23

DarkSpirit, sorry, but Tyla the nub is right. Armor-ignoring damage in HM IS MUCH BETTER. Same goes for life stealing and degeneration (although the last one is kind of a waste in pve).

In NM, go ahead, use nukers. But in HM Spiteful Spirit + Arcane Echo > any other combo of elite + non elite. Hell, SS alone is better than Searing Heat - higher damage output, can be maintained on 1 target, 2 with a bit of luck, gains from faster cast time and attacks of the monsters...

Oh, and Splinter HAS higher DPS. Check out Barrage + Splinter for some crazy numbers. Or Whirling Attack/cyclone attack/hundred blades (lol ;d)/crude swing.

BTW: Tyla, Defile Defenses works only after 1st block, same in pve and pvp. Before skill was introduced in betas of EotN, people saw this was overpowered - getting killed in 7 seconds thanks to this hex is kinda lame. Especially if someone had Aegis + Guardian on himself.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

There are times when that happens, and you still get decent damage off Barbs with only like 2 minions. Barbs punishes them for getting hit, DEfile Defenses punishes them for blocking. It's a win / win situation either way.

Barbs and Defile Defense are good skills but you should take the final damage over say, 5s. Minions dont hit fast and they die quite easily. We can theorize with your best made assumptions and I can theorize the other way till the sun goes down. It will not make a difference to reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

DarkSpirit, sorry, but Tyla the nub is right. Armor-ignoring damage in HM IS MUCH BETTER. Same goes for life stealing and degeneration (although the last one is kind of a waste in pve).

Final damage after damage calculations is what is more important here. For the sake of exaggeration if you still dont get my point about final damage, is 1 armor ignoring damage still better than 100000000 non-armor ignoring damage after taking say, 50% off from armor? Do the math.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

BTW: Tyla, Defile Defenses works only after 1st block, same in pve and pvp. Before skill was introduced in betas of EotN, people saw this was overpowered - getting killed in 7 seconds thanks to this hex is kinda lame. Especially if someone had Aegis + Guardian on himself.

He is assuming 100% block and the hex being up at all times.

Shaz · Jun 21, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Final damage after damage calculations is what is more important here. For the sake of exaggeration if you still dont get my point about final damage, is 1 armor ignoring damage still better than 100000000 non-armor ignoring damage after taking say, 50% off from armor? Do the math.

I get what you're saying, but your argument never make much sense to me DarkSpirit.

Caster damage just isn't comparable to the consistent and hard hitting of physical damage. Especially when you can buff it up even more with Orders, SoH, Barbs, Anthem of Envy, etc. That's why it's also far more easier to shut down a physical than a caster. As long as you keep them clean, a physical heavy team can kill much faster and provide more pressure than a casters team.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Barbs and Defile Defense are good skills but you should take the final damage over say, 5s. Minions dont hit fast and they die quite easily. We can theorize with your best made assumptions and I can theorize the other way till the sun goes down. It will not make a difference to reality.

Yeah, let's see now...

A target with 100 AL.

SH (At 15): 20, 40, 60, 80, 100 = 150 damage.
Barbs (At 15, with 1 minion): 0, 14, 0, 14, 0 = 28 damage.
Barbs (At 15, with 5 minions): 0, 75, 0 75, 0 = 150 damage.

On top of that, I don't have to wait for the skill to recharge, and enemies don't scatter with it. Good day.

Abedeus · Jun 21, 2008, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Final damage after damage calculations is what is more important here. For the sake of exaggeration if you still dont get my point about final damage, is 1 armor ignoring damage still better than 100000000 non-armor ignoring damage after taking say, 50% off from armor? Do the math.

Too bad that savannah heat has almost same damage as spiteful spirit, but armor cuts it by to like 20%-25% of total amount, while SS stays the same.

Even Rodgort's Invocation, one of the strongest aoe spells is inferior to defile/desecrate enchantments. And both have almost same energy/recharge ratio and same cast time.

And please, don't say "1 armor ignoring damage or 10000000 non-armor ignoring''. I could as well say ,,100 damage per second or uncapped 1000 pips of degen''. Never going to happen.

Quote:

He is assuming 100% block and the hex being up at all times.

Can't be up at all time, 5 sec recharge.

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 21, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

A Fire ele can easily outdo a curses nec in some situations, but not all. Both have ups and downs.

The damage from SS isn't as good as people think. I was using it for almost 2 years and damn, sometimes it is just horrid. Sure, it whoops melee mobs easily, but Enfeebling Blood makes them much less of a threat anyways, and it's not limited to a nec primary, along with other antimelee. Casters are often the bigger threats, and SS is pretty lame against them. On a hero, it's even worse since they won't always use it on the best targets. It's only used because there's no better options.

When were talkin heroes, Barbs + minions looks good on paper, but there's one thing you need to remember: minions attack what they want. You'd have to micro Barbs a tad bit for the hero to get good use from it. If not, you just gotta hope they don't wastefully slap it on some random target. I wish stuff in PvE blocked alot more so I could just toss Defile Defenses everywhere but PvP is where the block-addicts are. It's still a good skill, but stuff doesn't block enough in PvE for it to be a staple.

Armor is the only thing stopping fire ele's from being useful in alota PvE. I actually stopped using my ele after I saw that many mobs have unusually high armor. It's actually rare that you come accross a caster with 60al. The strength of a fire ele is being able to spit out unconditional damage. Curse necs have to rely on certain things.

I actually wouldn't use either though. I find both fire ele's and curse heroes pretty weak. Enfeebling Blood is great, but it's not limited to a nec primary. Splinter Weapon is also good, but also can be used by an x/Rt. Stuff in PvE has too much armor to make me wanna bring a fire ele. The only time I ever used a curse hero was months ago, doind Boreas Seabed HM, and that was before EotN was out......I wouldn't ever use one now.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

Caster damage just isn't comparable to the consistent and hard hitting of physical damage. Especially when you can buff it up even more with Orders, SoH, Barbs, Anthem of Envy, etc. That's why it's also far more easier to shut down a physical than a caster. As long as you keep them clean, a physical heavy team can kill much faster and provide more pressure than a casters team.

Then it goes back to my same question, why is this killing faster than sabway?