Curse

Tyla · Jun 20, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Dying with Sabway is bad anyway.

DarkSpirit · Jun 20, 2008, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Dying with Sabway is bad anyway.

Even so, you can still die with sabway in certain "harder" areas in HM. Especially more so when the MM hasn't got his minions yet.

I find sabway doesn't kill very fast, by the way.

ryu_okunato · Jun 20, 2008, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Even so, you can still die with sabway in certain "harder" areas in HM. Especially more so when the MM hasn't got his minions yet.

I find sabway doesn't kill very fast, by the way.

i agree wit tat, and also wit sabway u have to switch the healer for a quicker one in 4 man areas since he/she is probably going to be the only one and wold need to be able to heal quickly

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 20, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

There really doesn't seem to be much synergy in the setup. Necs don't need an MM on the team to be near-infinite energy machines. Stuff already dies fast in PvE. The people that started calling it "Sabway" in the first place have probably never stepped into HA. The N/Rt is years old, and thrives in any place where SR is triggered often. It's a good addition to any team, not just a specific setup. The curses build is just another variant of older builds. imo, The best it does is Enfeebling Blood and Splinter Weapon. SS is often bad in many situations, but there's not any better options for a curses hero in PvE. Jagged Bones was also used in HA before the nerfs. N/Mo Jagged MM's in PvE are also old news, but the majority worshipped bad Flesh Golem builds. I think alota players picked up on the 3nec setup when they finally realized that the typical Fire Ele/Monk/War hero setup often sucks in HM. I use that example because when I used to pug, those heroes are often what people brought.

Tyla · Jun 20, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

^
I usually call it Sabway because the idea of usage came from Sab. I believe so anyway.

Mind you, if it would be a player build, I would go with something else.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

There really doesn't seem to be much synergy in the setup. Necs don't need an MM on the team to be near-infinite energy machines. Stuff already dies fast in PvE. The people that started calling it "Sabway" in the first place have probably never stepped into HA. The N/Rt is years old, and thrives in any place where SR is triggered often. It's a good addition to any team, not just a specific setup. The curses build is just another variant of older builds. imo, The best it does is Enfeebling Blood and Splinter Weapon. SS is often bad in many situations, but there's not any better options for a curses hero in PvE. Jagged Bones was also used in HA before the nerfs. N/Mo Jagged MM's in PvE are also old news, but the majority worshipped bad Flesh Golem builds. I think alota players picked up on the 3nec setup when they finally realized that the typical Fire Ele/Monk/War hero setup often sucks in HM. I use that example because when I used to pug, those heroes are often what people brought.

Every build has its pros and cons, even sabway. And I call it sabway here even though we already know sab took her ideas from elsewhere, because people here generally know what I am referring to when I mention sabway, which is convenient for the sake of discussing hero builds.

I can call it "you know, the triple necro heroes build that sab posted in this thread <insert url here>" or simply sabway.

I didnt usually bring a monk hero before sabway. My usual hero setup was ToF paragon, SF ele, and Jagged MM (yes, many PUGs insisted that I should bring Flesh Golem for my MM) back in NF, which works well even in current HM.

NYC Elite · Jun 21, 2008, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryu_okunato

no synergy doesn't equal bad, synergy just helps a little bit but can sometimes be a problem in certain situations

for example, sabway can do a lot of damage wit the minions and minion buffs, but lets say u're doing thirsty river in hm and u're at the part wit the monk boss and lets all all of ur minions have died, now u r screwed because now u barely have any damage going on and anything u do will be healed by any of the 2 enemy healers, if u had slayers build u might actually stand a chance agianst this certain group, there r a lot a situations like these where synerigzing(thus focusing on one thing only) really screws u up.

Or, you could not be baed and let the minions die off fighting a *monk* boss mob. Even better, let's use this wonderful thing called "shutdown." Isn't it cool how the PLAYER can be shutdown skills? Daze, mesmer heroes with interrupts/diversion, etc. You use that example as if it's so common and a major flaw by setting it in an easy mission.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 05:38 PM // 17:38

The advantage of the SH Ele is for spiking important targets. With minions and good positioning, you can trap the target and control-space to kill it very fast with [[Savannah Heat]. This works even against bosses in HM.

You can replace the Ele with a Curse necro and make it into "Yet-another-sabway-variant", but even with barbs, SH tend to kill faster for most targets and it is not a hex that can be removed.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

I thought spiking was concentrating alot of damage on one enemy to deal the most possible damage in 1 second...?

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I thought spiking was concentrating alot of damage on one enemy to deal the most possible damage in 1 second...?

If you control-space, heroes concentrate all damage on one enemy.

ryu_okunato · Jun 21, 2008, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYC Elite

Or, you could not be baed and let the minions die off fighting a *monk* boss mob. Even better, let's use this wonderful thing called "shutdown." Isn't it cool how the PLAYER can be shutdown skills? Daze, mesmer heroes with interrupts/diversion, etc. You use that example as if it's so common and a major flaw by setting it in an easy mission.

But remember, not everyone's going to be a class where they can interrupt easily or where they can daze, i for example am a warrior and can't daze nor can i have a fast recharging interrupt skill to combat wit oh lets say WoH, even if i changed my secondary to a mesmer or ranger i still wouldn't be able to do **** because of my low energy, see not everyone has the luxury of being able to always interrupt.

Shaz · Jun 21, 2008, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If you control-space, heroes concentrate all damage on one enemy.

That still doesn't make SH a spiking skill though or good for spiking, advantage of SH is for AoE damage not spiking. Spiking is to inflicts massive amounts of damage to a single target in a short period of time, with the goal of taking them down quickly before the healer can react to it and heal it. AoE damage is different from spike damage, whose objective is to deal large amounts of damage to multiple targets over a period of time to drain the monk of energy.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

Spiking is to inflicts massive amounts of damage to a single target in a short period of time, with the goal of taking them down quickly before the healer can react to it and heal it.

And that is exactly how SH can be used.

Quote:

AoE damage is different from spike damage, whose objective is to deal large amounts of damage to multiple targets over a period of time to drain the monk of energy.

There is no rule carved in stone that says you cant use SH on an important target, because it kills too damn fast in HM PvE.

Shaz · Jun 21, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

You obviously don't understand the differences between the two concepts.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Even an AI healer can react to it within 5 seconds, how slow do you think they are exactly?

The heat skills are all pressure skills. You cannot spike with AoE that deals damage over time.

In the case of things like Rodgort's Invocation, with a team you can spike down a number of targets with ease, especially with physicals throwing up deep wound at the same time.

Spike =/= Pressure.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

You obviously don't understand the differences between the two concepts.

I understand what you are saying, but just because you categorize SH, in your own mind, as a AoE skill and therefore useless in PvE is just biased. A skill that kills so quickly in HM shouldn't be dismissed just because it is classified, in your mind, as "AoE".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The heat skills are all pressure skills. You cannot spike with AoE that deals damage over time.

Call it what you will. SH is a pressure skill that can kill HM bosses in a matter of seconds then. RI is also good but RI is energy demanding so you have to build around it.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

It's not because it's AoE. It's because it's affected by armour.

Shaz · Jun 21, 2008, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I understand what you are saying, but just because you categorize SH, in your own mind, as a AoE skill and useless in PvE is just biased. A skill that kills so quickly in HM shouldn't be dismissed just because it is classified, in your mind, as "AoE".

I rarely use an ele hero but when I do it's either SF or SH, because they arent the best with MB/RI build especially when they locked on to another ele. You could add more e-management but that would defeat the purpose of MB. I did not said that it's useless, I only have a problem with you calling it a spiking skill or use to spike when that's not what it is.

DarkSpirit · Jun 21, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

It's not because it's AoE. It's because it's affected by armour.

So are your physical attacks and you still use them.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ignore_armor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

I rarely use an ele hero but when I do it's either SF or SH, because they arent the best with MB/RI build especially when they locked on to another ele. You could add more e-management but that would defeat the purpose of MB. I did not said that it's useless, I only have a problem with you calling it a spiking skill or use to spike when that's not what it is.

I would try a MB/RI build on a hero then. Thanks for the tip.

I am not saying it is a spiking skills, but simply using it as an initial spike through control-space.

Tyla · Jun 21, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Attack skills' +damage isn't.

SH is an alright elite skill, but SF and SH belong on heroes because a player should be able to run an MB bar decently.