Curse

odly · Jun 10, 2008, 06:59 AM // 06:59

I have the same basic problem with this build as I have with Sabway.

The healer henchies are amongst the ones that work best. They manage to keep me alive if I bring just a little bit of utility myself and on the heroes. That's all they have to do.

Therefore using a hero for healing is a waste imo. I'd rather let mehnlo/lina/... keep me alive and use my hero for a damage build. The damage henchies are far worse than the healer/prot henchies.

DarkSpirit · Jun 10, 2008, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by odly

I have the same basic problem with this build as I have with Sabway.

The healer henchies are amongst the ones that work best. They manage to keep me alive if I bring just a little bit of utility myself and on the heroes. That's all they have to do.

Therefore using a hero for healing is a waste imo. I'd rather let mehnlo/lina/... keep me alive and use my hero for a damage build. The damage henchies are far worse than the healer/prot henchies.

Mhenlo+Lina may work for NM but when you move to HM they run out of energy fast. They dont even have runes. Sab's healer is much better and really comes in handy for HM.

Tyla · Jun 10, 2008, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Then why didnt anyone tell that to slayer for the first few, I dont know, 4 pages or so? And help to produce a stronger workable build out of that and it is not like slayer didnt read your comments and tried to improve his team build either, he updated them.

He's just put Guardian in the Monk build and kept a res on a Monk when it can be filled with a passive defense skill (Aegis) or another small prot (Shield of Absorption).

And the Eles still don't have utility. <3

DarkSpirit · Jun 10, 2008, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

He's just put Guardian in the Monk build and kept a res on a Monk when it can be filled with a passive defense skill (Aegis) or another small prot (Shield of Absorption).

And the Eles still don't have utility. <3

He has to update his own post. Agree that a melee defense can be useful.

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 10, 2008, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Mhenlo+Lina may work for NM but when you move to HM they run out of energy fast. They dont even have runes. Sab's healer is much better and really comes in handy for HM.

A well-setup team could easily get away with using only the 2 monk henches.

If you're relying fully on them to keep you alive in HM, then you might not last.

odly · Jun 10, 2008, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

A well-setup team could easily get away with using only the 2 monk henches.

If you're relying fully on them to keep you alive in HM, then you might not last.

Yes, that's what I said : They keep me alive just fine (yes in HM) if I bring a couple utility skills on my heroes.

The Meth · Jun 10, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by odly

Yes, that's what I said : They keep me alive just fine (yes in HM) if I bring a couple utility skills on my heroes.

Have to agree with this. H/H with hench healing works just fine if the heroes/ players bring a little bit of shutdown. Throw in a ward vs melee, an enfeebling blood, or a BHA and you are preventing more damage with 1 skill then the advantage a monk hero has over a henchmen. I Vanquished/Guardianed all of HM with 2 monk henchies before PvE skills on my ranger, and it wasn't too bad.

Face it, all of the other henchies suck hard. Good henchies other then healers is basically limited with
Prophecies: no good henchies.
Factions: Ok, monk henchies suck here, but the rit is awesome

. The other henchies suck again.
Nightfall: Herta is pretty decent, everyone else is crap. Herta is limited because you can't force her to ward where and when its needed.
EotN: Herta and Zho are good builds again, but you can't force them to use their skills when needed again. The warriors are decent but warrior AI is crap. The monk henchmen are pretty dang good in EotN, so they are upping the bar the other henchmen are compared to.

DarkSpirit · Jun 10, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Have to agree with this. H/H with hench healing works just fine if the heroes/ players bring a little bit of shutdown. Throw in a ward vs melee, an enfeebling blood, or a BHA and you are preventing more damage with 1 skill then the advantage a monk hero has over a henchmen. I Vanquished/Guardianed all of HM with 2 monk henchies before PvE skills on my ranger, and it wasn't too bad.

Mhenlo is still decent but I dont really like Lina. Even in HM different builds work better in different areas, if the hench monks work for you, great, more power to you. And of course it also depends if you have other secondary healers/protectors (e.g. SoR Motigon) to help out too. Even with enfeebling blood in sabway, it also brings a restore healer because the N/Rt works so much better than the hench monks with energy from soul reaping. But she doesn't need to bring a BHA and can bring other buffs instead.

I can simulate Mhenlo by plugging his skill bar into a hero monk and not giving him runes. Monitoring his energy levels during a fight just doesnt give me much confidence. Lina is worse. Why do you think I changed Slayer's build, for myself, to use a necro healer instead of a monk? But I usually bring Mhenlo because I have only 3 slots for heroes. All in all, they still suck compared to a good healer hero with runes, insignia, and proper weapons even with the same skill bar.

The other advantage of having a hero healer is you can make a hybrid healer/protect. The AI sucks with most protection spells anyway so you dont need a dedicated protector like Lina.

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 10, 2008, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

All in all, they still suck compared to a good healer hero with runes, insignia, and proper weapons even with the same skill bar.

Of course they're gonna suck. They're supposed to suck compared to heroes.

Whether or not it's worth using a hero slot on a healer/prot henchman depends on the player's team build. A good offense can act as a good defense at times. If you get a team build that uses a hero healer and replace that healer with damage, you might find you need to play a little more actively to avoid deaths. Assuming that damage hero has some kind of support, it shouldn't be too bad, and you'd be getting stuff killed a bit quicker if it's got a good build.

Of course, it doesn't even have to be a full healer/damage hero. Rits can spec 12/12 Channeling/Restor and have some decent e-management. 15spec Splinter Weapon whoops so hard.

DarkSpirit · Jun 10, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Of course they're gonna suck. They're supposed to suck compared to heroes.

Whether or not it's worth using a hero slot on a healer/prot henchman depends on the player's team build. .

Look at the team as a whole and optimize not just the 3 heroes, but the entire team with the right choice of henchies to bring along with you.

I understand what you are saying and I usually bring Mhenlo if I am going with just 1 account. The question then becomes is it worth bringing a full protection hench like Lina to take up 1 player slot? My answer tend to be no. I rather use that player slot for other more useful hench like Herta or even Cynn or Zho for BHA or Aidan for Barrage or even Talon for Shields Up, than to bring Lina. As far as protection spells are concerned, there are not many that the AI can use properly anyway so you can pretty much replace Lina with 1 or 2 spells and save Lina's player slot for even greater damage.

But if I dont bring Lina, would the team survive with just Mhenlo? If not then I may fit Aegis into another hero skill bar to help out. Or fit in another secondary healer like a SoR Motigon. Maybe that would be enough for some team configuration and areas but not for others.

You can also consider getting rid of Mhenlo too and just bring 1 good healer/protect hero and a secondary healer hero with some damage (e.g. SoR Motigon) and damage henchies. That may work for some areas.

There are many different possible combinations, playstyle (e.g. some people prefer to pull slowly and carefully, some people prefer to rush through an area as fast as possible, some people even have SY to help out with the protection, etc.), and team builds.

NYC Elite · Jun 10, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Literally speaking, I dont have infinite energy.

Also High level minions do not die off as often as bone minions. Besides, the best use of protective spirit is to cast it on an ally BEFORE the ally gets hit, not after, and heroes suck at knowing who is going to get hit next.

If you really need protective spirit, then do what sab recommends for an ideal situation and make it user controlled. You can change the MM to use bone minions and minions would die more often then try fitting in protective spirit, but the risk of doing that would be to have lower level minions as defense. If they hit a wall of high damage in HM, they can pop like balloons at the end of a party leaving your backline vulnerable.

Simple, AoE confuses melee monsters and they move in and out of it, helps to keep your backline safe. Minions hold aggro.

Which if you micro manage Prot Spirit yourself, what's the problem? And you clearly ignored the second, important part of my comment as far as scattering goes. If you scatter them, they run into OTHER mobs. That means now you've overaggro'd crap. And since the scatter only stops them for a few seconds, now they're back with more shit blowing you up, and since you've scattered them OFF the tank, they'll probably rearrange on your mid/backline. But judging by this 8 page crapfest, you don't like listening to people and decide to respond to what you want so it's pretty pointless to argue with you.

DarkSpirit · Jun 10, 2008, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYC Elite

Which if you micro manage Prot Spirit yourself, what's the problem? And you clearly ignored the second, important part of my comment as far as scattering goes. If you scatter them, they run into OTHER mobs.

No problem as long as you have the energy and you spam it on the right target. You are doing it all wrong if you are chasing their tails. The smarter thing to do is to just let them come to you, not run after them.

That is where knowing how the game works comes in handy. If they scatter into other mobs, they will not draw them as long as you dont follow them blindly into other mobs. Just ignore them and they alone will run back to you and rejoin the fight, chase after them and they will run further and further and you would have overextended. You need to be able to control your own character plus your heroes and henchies when necessary, rather than just c-spacing everything. You can change target at will you know.

angmar_nite · Jun 10, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

No problem as long as you have the energy and you spam it on the right target. You are doing it all wrong if you are chasing their tails. The smarter thing to do is to just let them come to you, not run after them.

That is where knowing how the game works comes in handy. If they scatter into other mobs, they will not draw them as long as you dont follow them blindly into other mobs. Just ignore them and they alone will run back to you and rejoin the fight, chase after them and they will run further and further and you would have overextended. You need to be able to control your own character plus your heroes and henchies when necessary, rather than just c-spacing everything. You can change target at will you know.

Your AI will follow. And the damage won't be done to full potential

DarkSpirit · Jun 10, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by angmar_nite

Your AI will follow. And the damage won't be done to full potential

My AI follows whatever I ctrl-space (calling target is now a long lost skill

), besides my heroes are set at guard, not attack. In the worst case, there is always the big flag but I never needed to do that except when I play my monk.

You should know how to control your heroes and what works best for you.

Super Igor · Jun 12, 2008, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by slayer5555

I tried to explain more then several times,
when u use meteor shower there will be no scattering.
How u think the solo E/A build would work if they always scatterd?
And above all of this the hero seemingly rly knows when to use MS.

Thx for your obviousness, but its not MS that prevents the scatter, it is knock down that gives you two seconds to cast something and pins them down as they try to escape from it.

ryu_okunato · Jun 19, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

i really don't see wat everyone has wit synergy, in my opinion it just becomes a problem when u synergize and u need to switch out a hero for watever reason, i prefer not to synergize

and btw i will try out these builds once i hae the right things because these actuallt look worthwhile

Tyla · Jun 20, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

^
^
Sabway isn't actually weak and overrated. It's one of the top priority builds for heroes with good reason. Now, if it was a player I would get that player to run something else unless it's the SS, in which I would only swap the elite out.

And Ryu, these builds aren't actually synergy specialists...

Super Igor · Jun 20, 2008, 07:59 PM // 19:59

No synergy = bad. Three random bad hero build = bad. Ursan does everything for you. Sabway fawcklin ownz all of your faces kudos to sabby for inventing it. End.

ryu_okunato · Jun 20, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

No synergy = bad. Three random bad hero build = bad. Ursan does everything for you. Sabway fawcklin ownz all of your faces kudos to sabby for inventing it. End.

no synergy doesn't equal bad, synergy just helps a little bit but can sometimes be a problem in certain situations

for example, sabway can do a lot of damage wit the minions and minion buffs, but lets say u're doing thirsty river in hm and u're at the part wit the monk boss and lets all all of ur minions have died, now u r screwed because now u barely have any damage going on and anything u do will be healed by any of the 2 enemy healers, if u had slayers build u might actually stand a chance agianst this certain group, there r a lot a situations like these where synerigzing(thus focusing on one thing only) really screws u up.

DarkSpirit · Jun 20, 2008, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Too much synergy can also be bad, especially more so if the synergy is only across the 3 heroes and sabway doesn't define the entire team.

Like a tower built from a deck of cards, if one card drops, the entire tower collaspes since every card is dependent on the others. A simple example would be the MM dying and losing soul reaping or the restoration healer dying and you are losing party-wide healing.

Synergy, on a 3-hero team, is only useful to an extend and it doesnt mean any build without obvious synergy, for the 3 heroes, is bound to be bad.