Curse

Draikin · Jul 20, 2008, 01:41 AM // 01:41

With the current AI, if you manually order a hero to use a skill and that skill gets interrupted, the green check mark on the skill will not be removed. This causes the hero to not use any other skills until it can use that interrupted skill again, unless you manually remove the check mark. For this reason I reported this behavior as a bug, but QA informed me this was intended behavior:

Quote:

This is intended functionality. It may not makes sense for more competitive play, but the intent is to make it so that if a skill is selected, that it will eventually be used. I personally have a hard time trying to track the actions of all my heroes, while playing my character. If I manually select to use a hero skill, it means I really want it used. The fix described seems like it would cause more frustration if the player was not aware that the hero was interrupted, the hero would seem to just fail to cast. Let me know if you think the majority of players would want this change. We can look into it more.

While I can agree that you micro a skill because you really want the hero to use it, it also means you want the hero to use it right now. In my opinion, if the hero fails to use the skill it should just continue using other skills. For example if I order a monk hero to use WoH and it gets interrupted by a Distracting Shot, I really don't want the hero to wait until it's recharged again before using any other skills. This means I'll always end up removing the check mark anyway. For that reason I'm interested in hearing your opinions on this matter, more specifically if you prefer the current AI behavior or not.

Gift3d · Jul 20, 2008, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Well no crap. The bug isn't that it stays checked, the bug is that the hero doesn't use any other skill until the checked out is recharged. That is the bug.

When i disable my sousuke's meteor shower because i don't want him using it on level 5 pets i aggro, and i manually set him to use it and it gets interrupted... people actually think it was ANet's intention for him to sit there like a useless twit for the 60 seconds it recharges? LOL.

Draikin · Jul 20, 2008, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

Well no crap. The bug isn't that it stays checked, the bug is that the hero doesn't use any other skill until the checked out is recharged. That is the bug.

That's always been the way it works: if you manually click a skill that is recharging, the hero won't use any other skills until it can activate that skill. This does make sense since the hero might not always use the skill as soon as possible otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

When i disable my sousuke's meteor shower because i don't want him using it on level 5 pets i aggro, and i manually set him to use it and it gets interrupted... people actually think it was ANet's intention for him to sit there like a useless twit for the 60 seconds it recharges? LOL.

I didn't believe that either but as you can read in my original post, ArenaNet says that's exactly their intention. If enough people think this behavior doesn't make sense then they might be willing to change it, which is why I'm posting this here.

Teutonic Paladin · Jul 21, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

I can see where they coming from on the intended feature part. People who only micro the rare heal or hex probably want thier hero to try casting again as soon as possible without microing making it more user friendly. (Obviously this isn't true for skills with long recharges but many skills recharge quickly enough that it isn't a big deal).
However, in competetive Hero Battles, this is liable to kill you unless you actively watch for the rare interupt on every cast you micro. It's merely conveniant when this feature works out in favor of the user, but it can be devastating when it works against the user. It should be changed.

X Tigercat X · Jul 21, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

ya this needs to be changed ive had my heros die because i micro hao or something and i look bak and my checkmark is still on hao but its taking 20 seconds to recharge and my hero is now about to die because its been sitting their waiting to recharge. this would be a great change because losing a match because of this is not right and its punishing people who actually micro skills and rewarding those who are getting lucky interupts off.

Getaway Special · Jul 21, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

However, in competetive Hero Battles, this is liable to kill you unless you actively watch for the rare interupt on every cast you micro. It's merely conveniant when this feature works out in favor of the user, but it can be devastating when it works against the user. It should be changed.

I agree. Some matches are more intense than a knife fight in a phone booth. You don't always have time to notice that your hero was interrupted and not casting until it's far too late.

DarkSpirit · Jul 21, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10

For a slow recharging spell, it work better for the AI to cast other spells first while it is recharging even though it has a check mark. For a fast recharging spell, you want the check mark to be there even when interrupted, until the hero has successfully cast it.

Therefore I would want the check mark to be there and the hero to keep trying to cast it even after it gets interrupted. Only upon a successful cast, should the check mark is cleared.

BUT I want it so that the AI would ignore the check mark, IF the marked spell is recharging or disabled. Meaning it would cast other spells and behave as per normal as if the check if not there, if the marked spell is recharging or disabled. So the current behavior is right but they need to check if the spell is recharging or disabled and ignore the check mark if that is the case.

Something like:

Code:

If (marked spell is NOT recharging or disabled)
{
       cast it immediately
}
else
{
        ignore check mark and behave as per normal
}

Draikin · Jul 21, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

DarkSpirit, there's a couple of problems I see with that solution. First of all, heroes might end up using the energy they needed to activate the skill by the time it's recharged. This could be solved by letting them stop using other skills if they drop below the minimum energy required for that skill, but that would probably be difficult to implement. Adrenaline skills would complicate things even more since using those slows down the adrenaline gain on other skills. The hero could also get into a situation where the skill is recharged while they're still activating a different skill, should they cancel their current action in that case?

X Tigercat X · Jul 21, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Getaway Special

I agree. Some matches are more intense than a knife fight in a phone booth. You don't always have time to notice that your hero was interrupted and not casting until it's far too late.

so tru dude I hate losing intense games not because I make a mistake but because of something like this that I fail to notice until its to late because their are quite a few things u have to pay attention to and u don't have time to watch each skill u micro to c if its interupted

And what if they changed it so the checkmark disseapers when the hero starts casting the skill instead of when they finish casting like it is now

Draikin · Jul 21, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Tigercat X

And what if they changed it so the checkmark disseapers when the hero starts casting the skill instead of when they finish casting like it is now

Actually it already works this way if the skill is activated instantly, I didn't mention that in the first post since it's basically a different issue. Currently there are two things that can happen after you manually order a hero to use a skill:

* The hero activates the skill instantly without any delay: the green check mark is not displayed during skill activation and if the hero is interrupted, it doesn't try to use the skill later on but simply continues using its other skills. This behavior is a side-effect from the previous AI update that made heroes respond faster to manually clicked skills.
* The hero queues the skill and a green check mark is displayed, showing that they can't use the skill instantly but will execute it as soon as they can: when the hero starts activating the skill, the green check mark is not removed, which is a first inconsistency with the previous example. The second inconsistency is that, if the hero is interrupted, the green check mark remains and the hero will not use any other skills until it can activate the interrupted skill again.

The former is the way it should work all the time in my opinion, with the check mark only showing that a skill is queued. The latter is the way ArenaNet currently wants it to work.

DarkSpirit · Jul 22, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

DarkSpirit, there's a couple of problems I see with that solution. First of all, heroes might end up using the energy they needed to activate the skill by the time it's recharged. This could be solved by letting them stop using other skills if they drop below the minimum energy required for that skill, but that would probably be difficult to implement. Adrenaline skills would complicate things even more since using those slows down the adrenaline gain on other skills.

True but that is an existing problem that already happens right now. Lets say you click on a spell, that is not recharging, but the hero doesn't have enough energy to cast it at that point in time. What happens? The hero would wait for his energy to regen then try to cast it.

For my solution, if the spell is recharging, the AI should ignore the check mark. Once the spell has completed recharging, then the hero would wait for his energy to regen then try to cast it, as per normal. So as long as the spell is not recharging or has completed recharging, there is no change to AI behavior from what it is now.

Quote:

The hero could also get into a situation where the skill is recharged while they're still activating a different skill, should they cancel their current action in that case?

What do they do now when you click on another skill while they are still activating a different skill? The same behavior should apply, since the skill you selected has completed recharging or is not recharging, it will be as if the hero just "notices" the check mark once the selected skill has completed recharging.

The goal for my suggestion is not to solve ALL possible issues with the AI, but at least for the issue of slow recharging spells, which maybe the most serious. Otherwise, what would happen if you accidentally click on a used res sig?

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Tigercat X

And what if they changed it so the checkmark disseapers when the hero starts casting the skill instead of when they finish casting like it is now

The problem with that solution is, if it is a FAST recharging and crucial skill that gets interrupted, you want the hero to try again immediately. For example, you command the hero to cast [[Guardian] on you since you are under attack and in trouble, but it was interrupted. Then you would want the hero to automatically try again as soon as possible, since you dont have the time to notice the interrupt and micro manage your hero again, when you are already running for your life.

In other words, if you click on a crucial skill on the hero bar, you can be sure that the hero would attempt to cast it SUCCESSFULLY, as soon as possible, as long as he has the energy to do so.

Draikin · Jul 22, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

The goal for my suggestion is not to solve ALL possible issues with the AI, but at least for the issue of slow recharging spells, which maybe the most serious. Otherwise, what would happen if you accidentally click on a used res sig?

The difference is that when you click that res sig, you'll instantly notice your mistake and cancel it. Interrupts on the other hand is not something you have under your control. While I definitely see your point, your solution would make it more difficult to predict when your hero is going to use a recharging skill, since they might have used up their energy in the meanwhile. In the same way, you'd also have no control over which skill your hero might end up canceling when the checked skill is recharged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

The problem with that solution is, if it is a FAST recharging and crucial skill that gets interrupted, you want the hero to try again immediately. For example, you command the hero to cast Guardian on you since you are under attack and in trouble, but it was interrupted. Then you would want the hero to automatically try again as soon as possible, since you dont have the time to notice the interrupt and micro manage your hero again, when you are already running for your life.

Well the thing when you click a skill and it's interrupted, the situation changes as well. For example when you needed Guardian 4 seconds ago to protect against that incoming assassin spike, you now need RoF and WoH to get you back to >50% health. At least in Hero Battles, I always ended up removing the check mark to "reset" the hero or to micro a different skill.

I guess the ideal solution would be to give the players the choice and include it in the options menu, but that's probably too much to ask for.

DarkSpirit · Jul 22, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

The difference is that when you click that res sig, you'll instantly notice your mistake and cancel it. Interrupts on the other hand is not something you have under your control. While I definitely see your point, your solution would make it more difficult to predict when your hero is going to use a recharging skill, since they might have used up their energy in the meanwhile. In the same way, you'd also have no control over which skill your hero might end up canceling when the checked skill is recharged.

Because of the dynamics of this game, you can never ever predict when a spell would be cast. The spell maybe interrupted, or the hero maybe knocked-down, or blackout, or die, etc. in the middle of casting.

Even your solution of clearing the check mark upon a failed attempt doesn't make it easier to predict when the spell would really be cast, would it? And maybe you have to click on it more than once to have it cast successfully. While in my case, you only need to command once and if it gets interrupted, the hero would cast it immediately when he is able to.

Sure, they may use up energy on other skills and not have enough to cast it immediately upon recharge but do you really check the amount of energy the hero has before casting a crucial skill during battle? No you dont need to, the hero would wait till he has enough energy before he cast. Even right now, you should come up with a good hero build for energy management so that responsibility is still yours.

Quote:

Well the thing when you click a skill and it's interrupted, the situation changes as well. For example when you needed Guardian 4 seconds ago to protect against that incoming assassin spike, you now need RoF and WoH to get you back to >50% health. At least in Hero Battles, I always ended up removing the check mark to "reset" the hero or to micro a different skill.

I guess the ideal solution would be to give the players the choice and include it in the options menu, but that's probably too much to ask for.

First of all Guardian recharges in 2s. Do you think your need would change within that 2s? Probably not.

And if you dont need the skill anymore, after it has been interrupted, then you can simply clear it or click on another skill. The fact that the skill was interrupted by the enemy is usually not an indication that you, the hero owner, has changed his mind about casting that skill. It just means that the enemy has stopped that skill temporarily, so your initial intention of casting the skill still stands until you tell him otherwise.

Whenever I micro manage to click on a hero skill bar manually, it means it is a crucial skill that I need it to be cast ASAP. The fact that it gets interrupted doesn't necessarily imply, "oh by the way if you get interrupted, I dont want this skill to be cast anymore, even though it only takes 1s to recharge."

X Tigercat X · Jul 22, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

The problem with that solution is, if it is a FAST recharging and crucial skill that gets interrupted, you want the hero to try again immediately. For example, you command the hero to cast [[Guardian] on you since you are under attack and in trouble, but it was interrupted. Then you would want the hero to automatically try again as soon as possible, since you dont have the time to notice the interrupt and micro manage your hero again, when you are already running for your life.

if my monk hero had guardian interupted i want my hero to cast woh or cast another prot or something to keep me alive not wait 4 seconds for it to recharge cause 4 seconds is pretty crucial in hb. in most cases when i get a skill interupted i want my hero to use the best next option to lessen the damage not wait around for it to recharge. and draiken do heros kite and stuff when waiting for an interupted skill to recharge.

edit: guardian has 4 second recharge since the nerf sometime in spring you need to keep up with the updates

DarkSpirit · Jul 22, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Tigercat X

if my monk hero had guardian interupted i want my hero to cast woh or cast another prot or something to keep me alive not wait 4 seconds for it to recharge cause 4 seconds is pretty crucial in hb. in most cases when i get a skill interupted i want my hero to use the best next option to lessen the damage not wait around for it to recharge. and draiken do heros kite and stuff when waiting for an interupted skill to recharge.

Why would he wait 4s when the recharge is only 2s? If I am kiting from melee, and I command my hero to cast Guardian ASAP, it means want Guardian ASAP. The fact that the first cast gets interrupts doesn't mean the melee pressure suddenly goes away from me.

Edit: Ok, the skill info needs to be updated. But the fact is still the same. Would the melee monsters suddenly leave me alone if my monk's Guardian is interrupted? No! So why would an interrupted Guardian necessarily always imply that I wont ever need it 4s later.

I should be the one commanding my heroes's behavior, not my enemies. If I have changed my mind, I would clear the check mark myself, this way I can be sure that if I issue a command to my hero, the command would indeed be executed sooner or later. Not wait for it to be executed and then later wondering why it wasn't, if I was too busy to notice the interrupt on the hero.

X Tigercat X · Jul 22, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Why would he wait 4s when the recharge is only 2s? If I am kiting from melee, and I command my hero to cast Guardian ASAP, it means want Guardian ASAP. The fact that the first cast gets interrupts doesn't mean the melee pressure suddenly goes away from me.

Edit: Ok, the skill info needs to be updated. But the fact is still the same. Would the melee monsters suddenly leave me alone if my monk's Guardian is interrupted? No! So why would an interrupted Guardian necessarily always imply that I wont ever need it 4s later.

I should be the one commanding my heroes's behavior, not my enemies. If I have changed my mind, I would clear the check mark myself, this way I can be sure that if I issue a command to my hero, the command would indeed be executed sooner or later. Not wait for it to be executed and then later wondering why it wasn't, if I was too busy to notice the interrupt on the hero.

ok so you have 1 disputable example of why to keep it the way it is but srsly IN MOST CASES you dont want them waiting on the skill and personnally i dont want my hero waiting for it to recharge no matter wat the skill or recharge. Anet shld make the check mark go away when it starts casting and if the skill gets interupted their shld be like a different color check mark or something to let you know the skill was interupted so u can micro the next best option. So if you want to wait for the skill to recharge you can go ahead and click it again and if you want the hero to use another skill because your too busy capping it willl do that instead of waiting for you to uncheck its checkmark. Dark ive never had this work in my favor and their are onnly a few instances it will but for the most part it is bad for HBers who micro alot and rewards them lucky noobs running 3 rps

DarkSpirit · Jul 22, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Tigercat X

ok so you have 1 disputable example of why to keep it the way it is but srsly IN MOST CASES you dont want them waiting on the skill and personnally i dont want my hero waiting for it to recharge no matter wat the skill or recharge.

But they are not going to be waiting on the skill to recharge. Like I suggested, they should ignore the check mark when the skill is recharging, this means if the selected skill is recharging, they can use other skills first. When the skill has stopped recharging is when they should start to observe the check mark.

The check mark should only be cleared if the skill was successfully cast as per ordered, or if the user cancels it. And not suddenly disappear when interrupted.

Quote:

Anet shld make the check mark go away when it starts casting and if the skill gets interupted their shld be like a different color check mark or something to let you know the skill was interupted so u can micro the next best option. Dark ive never had this work in my favor and their are onnly a few instances it will but for the most part it is bad for HBers who micro alot and rewards them lucky noobs running 3 rps

It is easier to just make it clear so the user knows that if the check mark was cleared on its own, it was successfully cast for sure. Otherwise, it becomes a maybe successfully cast or maybe not scenario, especially when the user micros it.

If you have skills that depend on a sequence of skills to be cast, it can be troublesome when you are unsure what happened during battle when you have so many other things to do and micro. I dont know, that is just my POV.

X Tigercat X · Jul 22, 2008, 11:31 PM // 23:31

but thats kind of pointless just micro it again if u still want it but i dont have time to uncheck to micro another skill. and yr way probably needs some more difficult coding to respond to different scernarios and has more flaws.

DarkSpirit · Jul 23, 2008, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Tigercat X

but thats kind of pointless just micro it again if u still want it but i dont have time to uncheck to micro another skill. and yr way probably needs some more difficult coding to respond to different scernarios and has more flaws.

If you dont have time to uncheck by micro-ing another skill, what makes you think I have the time to check the skill and micro it again?

Plus, I dont think the coding is that difficult. At least this way, I maintain proper control over my hero AI rather than not being sure if the skill I requested was actually used or not.