Curse

DarkSpirit · Jul 16, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

Because I don't like Rac's build. It's very good but it is not flexible. I love to play with my builds, I tweak them for almost every area and Sabway is great for that.

I dont know why that is so. Every build can be tweaked.

I dont use Rac's build in its original form for my Imbagon. I use a N/Rt orders with Splinter instead of a D/N. I have also changed the paragon heroes skills.

Although it is possible to use a triple necro build like sabway or discordway (with tweaking) with an Imbagon, paragon heroes synergize better with it. If you use a triple necro build, then you have to decide if you want to bring an orders necro. If you dont bring an orders necro, then you are not getting as much out of your Imbagon. If you do bring an orders necro, it is almost only for your Imbagon and not for your heroes, which is alittle overkill.

Washi · Jul 16, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I dont know why that is so. Every build can be tweaked.

I know but I find Necros 10 times more flexible than paragons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I dont use Rac's build in its original form for my Imbagon. I use a N/Rt orders with Splinter instead of a D/N. I have also changed the paragon heroes skills.

Ok now how in hell does your necro have enough energy to spam 10e skills every 2-3 seconds not to mention healing skills (mob deaths are not enough for sure). Also if you use Protective was Kaolai as your party wide heal you are loosing 1sec of your orders which is a waste IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Although it is possible to use a triple necro build like sabway or discordway (with tweaking) with an Imbagon, paragon heroes synergize better with it. If you use a triple necro build, then you have to decide if you want to bring an orders necro. If you dont bring an orders necro, then you are not getting as much out of your Imbagon. If you do bring an orders necro, it is almost only for your Imbagon and not for your heroes, which is alittle overkill.

I was using paragons alot untill one day when I decided to H/H Slaver's in HM. Stone Summit trashed me no matter what. Then I switched to Sab's and breezed through the whole thing, I didn't even bring special skills for duncan I just stood there in a corner and killed him. That's my story, lol

DarkSpirit · Jul 16, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

I know but I find Necros 10 times more flexible than paragons.

I dont think that is true. Paragon heroes are also flexible and can take on many builds.

Quote:

Ok now how in hell does your necro have enough energy to spam 10e skills every 2-3 seconds not to mention healing skills (mob deaths are not enough for sure). Also if you use Protective was Kaolai as your party wide heal you are loosing 1sec of your orders which is a waste IMO.

Besides soul reaping, necros also have good energy management skills like [[Masochism], and [[Signet of Lost Soul]. Having enough energy is usually not an issue for a necro.

And why does an orders/channeling necro need to bring Protective was Kaolai? You already have healer henchies plus SY and TNTF.

Quote:

I was using paragons alot untill one day when I decided to H/H Slaver's in HM. Stone Summit trashed me no matter what. Then I switched to Sab's and breezed through the whole thing, I didn't even bring special skills for duncan I just stood there in a corner and killed him. That's my story, lol

If you have problems surviving as an Imbagon with Rac's build, then you probably don't know how to tweak it to match the area. Besides Splinter (only 1 skill), there are not many synergizing aspect between sab's build and an Imbagon compared to Rac's build.

Carboplatin · Jul 16, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Rac's build have too many weaknesses. which we can save for another thread. It is good for some maps, but not others, especially an area with lots of melee hate. Rac's build is durable, but the damaging aspect of it can be easily mitigated by enemy monks. relying on all physical won't work all the time.

I like to try different team builds for fun. I can't imagine vanquishing the entire game with just one build, that would be worst then going to work.

DarkSpirit · Jul 16, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Langdon

Rac's build have too many weaknesses. which we can save for another thread. It is good for some maps, but not others, especially an area with lots of melee hate. Rac's build is durable, but the damaging aspect of it can be easily mitigated by enemy monks. relying on all physical won't work all the time.

I like to try different team builds for fun. I can't imagine vanquishing the entire game with just one build, that would be worst then going to work.

Then you can tweak it by bringing different heroes or different henchies. I am still not convinced that a generic build like triple necro sabway is the best possible hero team choice for an Imbagon.

If you are thinking that way, then you are not thinking hard enough to optimize your own team build and you are just defaulting to what almost everyone uses (i.e. sabway) that's all. It has no OOP or DF. It has no paragon chants to help you maintain AR or shouts for your Imbagon. I have yet to hear any argument that supports the fact that sabway IS the best possible choice for an Imbagon other than the original Racway doesn't work well in some areas which you are suppose to tweak anyway.

Cathode_Reborn · Jul 16, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Langdon

hymm i would like to try out this discord build, but i play mostly a paragon.

I tried it and liked it a little. For conditions, you can just add Barbed or Blazing Spear to your bar and stick with a typical "SY" build. Hexes were the annoying part - Parasitic Bond seemed like a good spammable hex to slap on one of the necs, then I found out hero AI is weird with it...They spend time trying to cast it on as many enemies as they can

It's been a while but I think target-spamming helped a little. The biggest benefit of being a Nec or Mes is you get easier access to hexes/conditions so it saves skillspace and attributes on the heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

I was using paragons alot untill one day when I decided to H/H Slaver's in HM. Stone Summit trashed me no matter what.

Well there is a crapload of anti-phys there. It's also one of the few areas in the game that actually has Soothing Images, and in HM those Stone summit can easily keep it on you the entire time. Also, if you really H/H'd Duncan in HM without consets/etc, I'd really like to see a screenshot. That place is insane in HM...

rick1027 · Jul 16, 2008, 11:50 PM // 23:50

i have found out i like the discord better then sabway when i tested both same areas discord blew up stuff quicker then the sabway build. i did use modified builds not the originals and most of the modifications were the same for both teams

Marverick · Jul 17, 2008, 01:35 AM // 01:35

For Sabway, you really need to be a profession that can deal out a respectable amount of single-target damage. Minions and curses don't do any controllable damage and won't be able to take down priority targets.

Carboplatin · Jul 17, 2008, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Then you can tweak it by bringing different heroes or different henchies.

That is exactly what i am doing. Bingo. Trying different heros and henchies cause playing with all paragons all the time can be boring believe it or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I am still not convinced that a generic build like triple necro sabway is the best possible hero team choice for an Imbagon

Never said there was a best possible build. I was merely interested in experimenting with builds. Trying out different builds can be fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If you are thinking that way, then you are not thinking hard enough to optimize your own team build and you are just defaulting to what almost everyone uses (i.e. sabway) that's all. It has no OOP or DF. It has no paragon chants to help you maintain AR or shouts for your Imbagon. I have yet to hear any argument that supports the fact that sabway IS the best possible choice for an Imbagon other than the original Racway doesn't work well in some areas which you are suppose to tweak anyway.

Does a paragon have to play a imbagon? Can i have a little variety?
Where did I say there IS a best possible choice for an imbagon team? An Imbagon can maintain AR alone without help, so i don't need the other paras around. Is the Paragon class that limited that it can only play Imbagon or be part of a Rac'way team?

To be honest, 99% of the game can be done without the use of TnTF or SY.
Ever wonder why we have so many heros? It adds variety. Which is what I am seeking. This is a thread where we are discussing Discord teams right?

Thx for the people that did offer some insight into Paragon + Discord Nec's

p.s. I never said I was an Imbagon. I said I played a paragon.

Paragon != Imbagon.

edit - cause I fail at spelling

cyber88 · Jul 17, 2008, 04:12 AM // 04:12

LOL. Yea. No 1 team build is perfect or the best. It juz depends on wat is ur preference and/or ur profession.

on 1 point, i hav to disagree with Marverick. I play a Mo/any signet smiter & the GW community general concensus is tat smite line doesn't deal respectable dmg even when spec to 16. when i run sabway, i find the spread out dmg the minions dish out is ok to me. timing wise, yes, it is slightly slower den dmg-focus prof (e.g. eles, wars, dervs) but i find no difficulty in taking out priority targets.

juz my $0.02 worth

Teutonic Paladin · Jul 17, 2008, 04:23 AM // 04:23

I play DSlash SY. When I vanquish with H/H I take sabway, I feel that it is the most effective 3 hero in the game with it's massive defense and incredibly damage from a microed SS. If I'm with a friend however, we run six Discord Heroes and I run an Promise + YMLAD build. We've blown our way through many zones with no deaths and no effort on either player's part. It's rediculous.

Washi · Jul 17, 2008, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If you have problems surviving as an Imbagon with Rac's build, then you probably don't know how to tweak it to match the area. Besides Splinter (only 1 skill), there are not many synergizing aspect between sab's build and an Imbagon compared to Rac's build.

Maybe I'm just that bad but I really don't think so. As I said earlier I like tweaking builds, I have legendary vanquisher on my ranger and soon I'll finish it on my para. And I dare you to clear Slaver's HM with racway, it just didn't work for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Well there is a crapload of anti-phys there. It's also one of the few areas in the game that actually has Soothing Images, and in HM those Stone summit can easily keep it on you the entire time. Also, if you really H/H'd Duncan in HM without consets/etc, I'd really like to see a screenshot. That place is insane in HM...

I'm not really taking screenshots of anything unless I see something weird/funny, so sorry I don't have a proof and I don't really need to prove anything. I thought it wasnt a big deal with an imbalanced stuff like imbagon and sabway. I have to say that [skill]holy spear[/skill] is a skill that rapes stone summit since most of the groups have a MM, many people underestimate that skill. You can spam it every second shot and still maintain SY.

DarkSpirit · Jul 17, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Langdon

To be honest, 99% of the game can be done without the use of TnTF or SY.
Ever wonder why we have so many heros? It adds variety. Which is what I am seeking.

If you are using a sub optimal build just for fun then the discussion is moot in a strategy forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

Maybe I'm just that bad but I really don't think so. As I said earlier I like tweaking builds, I have legendary vanquisher on my ranger and soon I'll finish it on my para. And I dare you to clear Slaver's HM with racway, it just didn't work for me.

Then come up with your own balanced build for Slaver's HM rather than using one that almost everyone defaults to and doesn't synergize with your paragon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

I play DSlash SY. When I vanquish with H/H I take sabway, I feel that it is the most effective 3 hero in the game with it's massive defense and incredibly damage from a microed SS. If I'm with a friend however, we run six Discord Heroes and I run an Promise + YMLAD build. We've blown our way through many zones with no deaths and no effort on either player's part. It's rediculous.

That is another advantage of Discord, it can be easily extended to a 6 heroes team.

Carboplatin · Jul 17, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If you are using a sub optimal build just for fun then the discussion is moot in a strategy forum.

you are once again implying there is a "best" build. If I don't use TNTF and SY imbagon then its not optimal? You sir, need to open up.

DarkSpirit · Jul 17, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Langdon

you are once again implying there is a "best" build. If I don't use TNTF and SY imbagon then its not optimal? You sir, need to open up.

I am not saying you should always play an Imbagon.

Since this is a discussion thread about sabway and discordway, I was hoping that you would provide a better reason to use sabway with a paragon than just: "Trying out different builds can be fun."

-Lotus- · Jul 17, 2008, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Langdon

you are once again implying there is a "best" build. If I don't use TNTF and SY imbagon then its not optimal? You sir, need to open up.

you need to face reality. an imbagon makes your party invincible in almost every area of the game.

AcousticMeanie · Jul 17, 2008, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

you need to face reality. an imbagon makes your party invincible in almost every area of the game.

That's true...Imbagon does make you basically immune to everything, including this little thing called fun!

Let the man play his para the way he wants to, it's not like it effects you.

Now lets get back to the topic Sab vs. Discord.

Let's face it Monking h/h gets old so I've been trying to come up with support builds that I find fun.

Anyone come up with a good way to run Discord on a Monk aside from [Assassin's Promise] + [You Move like a Dwarf]?

I've been running [Assassin's Promise] + [Pain Inverter] + [Caltrops] with misc other skills filling in depending on the area such as

[Summon Naga Shaman] for KD support feeding off [Enfeebling Blood] on one necro

[Signet of Twilight] for enchant removal

[Aegis] for endless chaining

[Bane Signet], [Castigation Signet], [Signet of Rage] for minor direct damage

DarkSpirit · Jul 17, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcousticMeanie

That's true...Imbagon does make you basically immune to everything, including this little thing called fun!

Let the man play his para the way he wants to, it's not like it effects you.

Fun is subjective, what is fun for one may not be fun for another. Everyone always has the freedom to play whatever they want in the game. It is not like any of us can control his playing style. If he wishes, he can ignore all suggestions and use the worst build in his games and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it.

But that is not what this discussion is about, unless you dont mind that ALL of us start posting crappy builds, from now on, with just the reason that: "it is fun for us".

Carboplatin · Jul 17, 2008, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

you need to face reality. an imbagon makes your party invincible in almost every area of the game.

so I guess you must be one of those people that use a game genie and put in god mode just since to you seem to love invincibility.

Is the will to experiment not a good enought of a reason? Almost everything we know starts with experimentation, some good, some bad, but all in the sake of experimenting and making discoveries.

Can other classes try Discord way or Sabway?? of course. Will some classes be better then others? sure.

Since this so called discussion of Sabway vs. Discordway prohibits the dicussion of other classes using the build that is supposed to be discussed in this thread, why don't you post this in the Necro forum, since you seem to think its a 4 Necro or nothing build.

Washi · Jul 17, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Then come up with your own balanced build for Slaver's HM rather than using one that almost everyone defaults to and doesn't synergize with your paragon.

wow... this is some retarded statement. What is sabway in your opinion? For me it's SS necro, MB, and N/Rt healer. That's it, no fixed builds, it's a concept. You can change most of the skills on the bars, it encourages creative thinking cause there is so much you can do. And you say like it's ursan.

You are so glued to this "synergy" you talk about but you fail to understand that Racway is worse than sabway in most difficult areas. I will not agree that it's as flexible, far from it. I played many hours using both concepts, adjusting and testing and from my experience Necros are superior in most cases, that's it. I would really like to see someone breezing through slaver's or shards with racway, seriously that would make me thinking. Untill then I can't agree with you.