Curse

Washi · Apr 18, 2008, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targuil

Nice variant for condition heavy places:
N/Mo
Soul reaping 9+1
Death magic 12+1+(1-3)
Protection prayers 9
rest to whatever you want

[skill]Martyr[/skill][skill]infuse condition[/skill][skill]animate bone minions[/skill][skill]death nova[/skill][skill]blood of the master[/skill][skill]aegis[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]
Yeah, pretty much modified sab minion bomber.

[skill]Pure Was Li Ming[/skill] with 3 resto is usually enough. That skill is OP imo.

Super Igor · Apr 18, 2008, 12:22 PM // 12:22

The nerfs will be reverted on first day of may as far as I know, anywho, +1 for vengeance.

~Super Igor

~

Belonah15 · Apr 18, 2008, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Would a Paragon shout like Ballad of Restoration not be a better option for a MM?

BlueNovember · Apr 18, 2008, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

[Contemplation of Purity] removes enchantments from yourself, not from your minions. Death Nova is an enchantment that the MM casts on his minions if they are dying, not on himself (unless he is dying too).

...
My point was that Death Nova damage will not damage your party if you lose control of minions that have Death Nova on them.
CoPing off Verata's Aura is a good way to achieve this.

Shai-hulud · Apr 22, 2008, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

[skill]Pure Was Li Ming[/skill] with 3 resto is usually enough. That skill is OP imo.

Probably it depends on the team and on the area. Martyr can be superior to Pure Was, especially versus those mandragor in EotN. Another advantage could be profession advantage, with /Mo it is possible to carry different ress (ress chant or vengeance for instance), carry Aegis to help in an aegis chain, carry additional hex removal, protective spirit or other usefull supportive monk skillz. Personally I like the martyr MM as it gives great condition removal and the conditions are directly channeled through to your minions. I prefer this elite over something like Jagged Bones but well, that's just a preference

DarkSpirit · Apr 22, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueNovember

...
My point was that Death Nova damage will not damage your party if you lose control of minions that have Death Nova on them.
CoPing off Verata's Aura is a good way to achieve this.

Verata's Aura is so conditional in PvE, very few MMs would bring it as a generic PvE MM build unless for very specific areas maybe.

And my point was not so much that hostile minion damage would overwhelm your team, but that losing all that minions which Olias maintained, plus Olias himself and another guy, during a crucial time in the battle, due to DPS chaining can't be a good factor in the build, so the build itself has a COST if you equip DPS on the MM. I dont think equipping DPS on the MM is worth that trouble.

If your team is dying so often that you need such a res on your MM, something is wrong with your team build.

Super Igor · Apr 22, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Yeah, DPS puts MM in a very high risk. No matter how good you are in PvE shit happens, and sometimes you MM could rez someone who died in the middle of AoE spell or who has low health due to excessive DP and if that ressed character dies again, you MM dies too, your party would have no wall anymore and could take some minor pressure from those hostile minions aswell alongside the monsters.

You get the idea...

~Super Igor

~

Shai-hulud · Apr 22, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

I have to agree with the fact that DPS can't be good. Losing the minion wall usually is dangerous for the party, why take the risk, why not another ress like ress chant, it's nearly as good (okay it costs 10 more energy, 2 secs longer cast, 5 secs longer recharge but about the same health and energy) - you have to prof change though, although I don't see if that's a bad thing

Coloneh · Apr 22, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shai-hulud

I have to agree with the fact that DPS can't be good. Losing the minion wall usually is dangerous for the party, why take the risk,

what risk?

123456789

Antithesis · Apr 23, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shai-hulud

I have to agree with the fact that DPS can't be good. Losing the minion wall usually is dangerous for the party, why take the risk...

I don't put a rez on my MM hero but i don't see it as a problem if you do. The minions aren't particularly threatening when an MM dies.

Besides, MM's attract a fair bit of HM agro, so there's an equal or greater threat of a DPS caster dying from the rez & subsequent death of the MM. The result is the same - two dead party members and 10 minions on the loose.

DarkSpirit · Apr 23, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I don't put a rez on my MM hero but i don't see it as a problem if you do. The minions aren't particularly threatening when an MM dies.

The problem is not so much that your minions are threatening but also the risk of losing all your minions at a time when you need them most.

Quote:

Besides, MM's attract a fair bit of HM agro, so there's an equal or greater threat of a DPS caster dying from the rez & subsequent death of the MM. The result is the same - two dead party members and 10 minions on the loose.

And good MM builds usually offer a certain amount of protection for the MM. Sab's MM seem to have Protective Spirit which he can also use on other team members who need it besides himself. Zingeri's MM has Aura of the Lich and my MM usually gets bonded.

Using DPS would increase the risk of the MM dying, not just from direct damage, but now, also from DPS chaining. One sign of a good team build would be to protect the MM, rather than putting him in greater risk. A MM is a useful team member to have around in most PvE places for both damage and damage mitigation.

Antithesis · Apr 23, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

The problem is not so much that your minions are threatening but also the risk of losing all your minions at a time when you need them most.

True but if an MM dies it's most likely because the meatshield has already been breached or it hasn't yet been built.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And good MM builds usually offer a certain amount of protection for the MM. Sab's MM seem to have Protective Spirit which he can also use on other team members who need it besides himself.
--snip--
A MM is a useful team member to have around in most PvE places for both damage and damage mitigation.

100% agree that MM's make great team members, but mine is out and out offense 90% of the time. I carry neither Protective Spirit nor Aegis and have very few problems Vanquishing. Most of the time an MM is under threat it's from a physical source. When i do need additional protection, i put [[Protective was Kaolai] onto the MM or [[weapon of warding] onto the restorer or slot [[shadowsong] in to mitigate that threat in place of Aegis. The build still has a strong anti-spike defense skill and i can, if desired, drop DPS onto the MM without adversely affecting the team build. If spells are the greater threat then why the hell aren't we running your Vengeful Rezmer instead?

You no longer need Protective Spirit if a spell misfires.

The point is that a team build is far more important than a single skillbar. While running Sab's or Rac's most us of will use DPS or Signet of Return on 2 out of 3 Heroes. It really doesn't matter where you slot it in as long as your build is defensive enough to protect a party member under fire.

DarkSpirit · Apr 23, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

True but if an MM dies it's most likely because the meatshield has already been breached or it hasn't yet been built.

Even if ALL your minions die, as long as the MM is the last one to remain alive and the monsters do not exploit corpses, then theoretically your MM can make use of friendly corpses for 7 fresh minions. If you use bone minions, you have double that, but capped at 10. Jagged Bones give your minions a second life so in effect, your MM has double the number of minions that he actually has.

A good MM with enough minions, can often turn the tide of battle to your favor even after most of your party members have died. MMs have the unique ability to turn a losing battle into a win IF they can stay alive long enough and produce enough minions. For a standard damage team member, he is still 1 guy(and weakened with DP) vs afew in a losing battle, after a res. You shouldn't be sacrificing your MM + 7 to 10 minions for that 1 guy if you are using H/H.

Quote:

100% agree that MM's make great team members, but mine is out and out offense 90% of the time. I carry neither Protective Spirit nor Aegis and have very few problems Vanquishing.

Then I would think about improving him.

Quote:

Most of the time an MM is under threat it's from a physical source. When i do need additional protection, i put [[Protective was Kaolai] onto the MM or [[weapon of warding] onto the restorer or slot [[shadowsong] in to mitigate that threat in place of Aegis.

These are already some ways that you are doing that helped to protect your MM.

Quote:

The build still has a strong anti-spike defense skill and i can, if desired, drop DPS onto the MM without adversely affecting the team build. If spells are the greater threat then why the hell aren't we running your Vengeful Rezmer instead?

You no longer need Protective Spirit if a spell misfires.

I think one variation of Sab's build has Aegis on the MM besides just Protective Spirit.

Quote:

The point is that a team build is far more important than a single skillbar. While running Sab's or Rac's most us of will use DPS or Signet of Return on 2 out of 3 Heroes. It really doesn't matter where you slot it in as long as your build is defensive enough to protect a party member under fire.

True, and that is why I bond my MM. But using DPS, would overcome whatever protective skills you use on him when that someone dies again within 2 mins, which is a very long time in any battle.

The MM is a critical member of most PvE team builds because they can make so much difference to the team. Take Rac's build for example, I had lots of problems using it against the Charrs in HM Dalada Highlands without making huge build changes and changing my strategy when all I needed was to simply replace a Paragon hero with a MM hero and all was smooth sailing. Not only do the minions soak up huge damage in HM, they also dished out huge damage themselves through the use of Barbs, Splinter Weapon, and Weaken Armor if you use Sab's team build and Gfte if you use a paragon and granting huge energy back for TNTF.

That is how effective MMs are in most PvE areas.

Antithesis · Apr 23, 2008, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Then I would think about improving him.

Say what?!? You're barking up the wrong tree with that comment - as I said I have very few problems Vanq'ing with a build that needs neither Aegis nor Prot Spirit.

My MM is offensive (standard bomber with Ancestor's Rage / Splinter Weapon) precisely because i don't need Aegis / Protective Spirit. Other characters pick up the slack if and when additional Prot is needed.

If i'm running a caster toon I spec my healer into Communing, so AR/SW needs to be included somewhere else, I don't like it on the SS so it goes onto the MM.
If i run a physical toon, i'll spec the healer into Channeling and take AR/SW from the MM and replace with them with something else depending on what i need for that zone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

True, and that is why I bond my MM.

If you need to bond your MM, maybe you need to review your own build. Or maybe you should share the bonder to help others improve their builds. You did that with the Rezmer which i summarily dismissed only to end up loving the little sucker with a change or two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

These are already some ways that you are doing that helped to protect your MM.

duh...no shit Sherlock. Precisely why i don't need Aegis / Protective Spirit / Guardian when running a caster. If i'm running a physical chances are i'm also running [[save yourselves] which is more than enough prot, so again, Aegis / Protective Spirit is left out of the build. You like them, take them, but don't try to convince me they're needed or tell me I need to improve my MM when it functions perfectly well without them.

And why are you lecturing me on the mechanics and values of the MM? I've been playing this game for 3 years and you're telling me nothing I don't already know. You also know i don't take DPS on the MM, so what's your point?

Some people like DPS on the MM, neither you or I do. But our opinions should not preclude others who do like it from using it. One can, if desired, slot DPS onto a MM. You can argue against it till you're blue in the face but that's just how some people like to roll. Offer solutions, offer alternatives, but don't dismiss it because you don't like it.

DarkSpirit · Apr 23, 2008, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Say what?!? You're barking up the wrong tree with that comment - as I said I have very few problems Vanq'ing with a build that needs neither Aegis nor Prot Spirit.

My MM is offensive (standard bomber with Ancestor's Rage / Splinter Weapon) precisely because i don't need Aegis / Protective Spirit. Other characters pick up the slack if and when additional Prot is needed.

If i'm running a caster toon I spec my healer into Communing, so AR/SW needs to be included somewhere else, I don't like it on the SS so it goes onto the MM.
If i run a physical toon, i'll spec the healer into Channeling and take AR/SW from the MM and replace with them with something else depending on what i need for that zone.

Relax! Nobody is saying you need Aegis and Protective Spirit on your MM.

The MM is an important team member so he should be well protected, not left to sacrifice himself (and all his loyal undead servants), to res some other single hero with DP.

Quote:

Some people like DPS on the MM, neither you or I do. But our opinions should not preclude others who do like it from using it. One can, if desired, slot DPS onto a MM. You can argue against it till you're blue in the face but that's just how some people like to roll. Offer solutions, offer alternatives, but don't dismiss it because you don't like it.

My opinions are my own as much as yours is your own. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions in this forum. I am not obliged to have to agree with anyone and neither are you. There are people who agree with me and there people who dont, on the MM DPS issue.

It is not my goal or desire to change people. I merely state my opinions and my reasonings behind them. Nobody is going to change your character builds in the game except yourselves anyway right?

In other words, I can dismiss any build that I dont think is right as much as people who have dismissed yours and mine. Some people have dismissed sabway as crappy too if you check her thread.

Solution? My solution is to just remove DPS from the MM and I thought I have made that point very clear already. If I have to throw in a res on my MM, I would rather use Vengeance than DPS, but I am sure, as always, many people will dismiss that suggestion as a bad one too. But at least I speak my mind.

Antithesis · Apr 23, 2008, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

It is not my goal or desire to change people. I merely state my opinions and my reasonings behind them.
--snip--
But at least I speak my mind.

Which is precisely why i normally respect your opinion, you're able to make a good argument about your choices. The "Then I think you should improve him" comment was out of left-field, maybe you misread what i wrote.

Anyway, it's all gits and shiggles. No-one takes forums too seriously.

Fire The Nutter · Apr 24, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

LOL @ This entire thread, pure hilarity start to finish.

Antithesis, DarkSpirit - I have no way of knowing but id almost peg you guys as brothers, warring one point, united and agreeing the next.

You both know SO much about the game compared to lots of other people (myself included in that) and are both actually striving for the same thing, the best way to do things, possibly whilst still having fun.

As other people have said in this thread, many people (me included again) read the forums looking for that extra edge as we dont have the in-depth knowledge of skills and builds (and team builds) that you both clearly have and basically are looking for that cookie cutter build to demolish the whole game. Thankfully from both your posts in just the last few weeks ive learnt a whole lot and now actually give some thought to my own builds rather than just copying someone else.

At the end of the day, its hard to convince people about new ideas, we all know it whether its GW or real life (someone told me about it once, i just hope that doesnt have subscription fees either!) without real iron clad evidence and GW being GW there are an almost infinite number of skill and character options to make up a team that its entirely possible that your DPS is the cornerstone of the team whilst in my team it would result in team wipes 9/10 times.

I recently have suffered at the hands of DPS (not on my MM but thats really beside the point) a few times, and then promptly went away and thought "is something wrong here" and tried to fix the team but if I hadnt of died cos of DPS (yes i know its not actually DPS with the problem) then id never even bother worrying about DPS (barring the strangest skill update ever covering just 2 weeks).

To summarise:

There is NOT and never will be a BEST build for anyone ever. Period.

I think that should be my sig line

And Antithesis: I wish no-one took them seriously but sometimes it makes for fun reading LOL

Antithesis · Apr 25, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire The Nutter

LOL @ This entire thread, pure hilarity start to finish.

Antithesis, DarkSpirit - I have no way of knowing but id almost peg you guys as brothers, warring one point, united and agreeing the next.

You both know SO much about the game compared to lots of other people (myself included in that) and are both actually striving for the same thing, the best way to do things, possibly whilst still having fun.

I like the "possibly" qualifier

You gotta have fun on the forum too - it's fine to tear into each other as long as the debate is on-topic and contributes to the thread

Quite honestly i'm no better player nor am i any more knowledgeable than the next guy. I come here to learn, to test builds, suggest skills and offer balanced feedback so that others can form their own opinion rather than accepting a build verbatim. It's far better to question a build and be proven wrong than run a crappy build and think you're right.

The guys who are good at the game are folks like Racthoh who post innovative builds that are heavily tested. They pop in from time to time to submit a 10 word post that makes pefect sense, instead of drolling on an on like an old woman...like i do in my walls of text

street peddler · Apr 25, 2008, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belonah15

Would a Paragon shout like Ballad of Restoration not be a better option for a MM?

only shout thats worth it is [skill]"Fall Back!"[/skill] and i dunno if it was changed to not effect minions.

angmar_nite · Apr 25, 2008, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire The Nutter

There is NOT and never will be a BEST build for anyone ever. Period.

I think that should be my sig line

And Antithesis: I wish no-one took them seriously but sometimes it makes for fun reading LOL

Best build.

Imbagon.

Ursan.

Ok??
But my mm never brings a hard rez, waste of soul reaping. I find for vanquishing a few sigs is enough cause you respawn anyways, and if you die that often there's rethinking to be done. However my preferred hard rez is sig of return -no energy, and the paragon can still shout while using it so he's not entirely useless. My ele occassionally brings a hard rez if i dont feel like bring PS to go along with aegis, but monks should also not run hard rez's. Waste of a skill.

However, if i realy MUST bring a hardrez for my necro, it would be ressurection chant, simply cause he also does protection, where as i leave rit sklls to my n/rt or my own ele.

edit: And antithesis is right. ractoth is god. the rest of us are but grains of sand to him, or in the case of SMS, grasshoppers. Ensigns pretty pro too.