Curse

DarkSpirit · Apr 17, 2008, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. And handful of bone minions with death nova should not be a huge threat to your team. Unless you're dumb enough to stop attacking the monsters and start killing the minions so that they all blow up on you at the same time, you can just let them swing away doing near-zero melee damage and they'll blow up piecemeal as they degen out. No problem.

And when they die with Death Nova beside you, guess who gets poisoned and damaged? You and your team. Furthermore having stupid henchies (which are set to default aggressive) attack the jagged horrors would cause more damage and bleeding. In other words, you are using your own minions against yourselves. Why is that even a good thing?

First because of that one team member's death, you have lost all your minions and your MM at the same time, second, they turned against you. Is it really worth going through all that just for that 1 particular res that you have to put on your MM?

Quote:

3. Coloneh is right on this one.

Coloneh is wrong, look at the definition of DPS:

"Resurrect target party member with your current Health and 15..83% maximum Energy. The next time that ally dies within 120 seconds, so do you. "

This means if the MM resurrected "weak guy" and "weak guy" dies within 2 minutes (i.e. 120s) which is an extremely long time within a battle by the way, then your MM dies immediately after him too.

Sab included DPS into the build to serve as minion factory FOR the MM, not for the MM himself to die. This is why her MM build never carried DPS or even any kind of res for that matter, but the other 2 necros do, for very obvious reasons.

Also check the wiki for yourself:

Quote:

Originally Posted by guildwiki

This is a great skill to use for creating a minion factory chain. One uses this on the sacrificer; when the sacrificer dies, the resurrector dies as well, providing more corpses to exploit, without causing another character to gather death penalty.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Pact_Signet

Coloneh · Apr 17, 2008, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spaced Invader

DPS is not worth the risk of losing your MM (incl. minions). Bring it on any other char/hero if you like. There's no reason not to take any of the other zillion rezzes on your MM - or none at all, actually.

If you're oh-so confident in your team's abilities the latter is just what you should do anyway.

DPS is the best rez skill in the game (well glyph of sacc + chant is better, but thats 2 slots) hands down. it is easily worth the "risk" (if thats what you want to call it) of losing your MM. there is no way you will be losing your MM. fights last 30 seconds in PvE, so you have maybe a 10 second window for that freshley rezzed character to die, which is nearly impossible unless you are rezzing a bip.

by this time in a fight mobs will already have a target, and as this character is rezzed at the same health as the cast he wont show up on the attack priority of the AI so they wont even get attacked.

Having no rez on any non-monk is just stupid unless you can double your efficiency by using that one slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Also check the wiki for yourself:

Wiki notes are notorious for being stupid, useless and just plain wrong.

Arkantos · Apr 17, 2008, 03:09 AM // 03:09

I'd say DPS on your MM is pretty dumb, especially in a h/h group. MM resses dead hero/henchie, that hero/henchie dies within 2 minutes (very possible with h/h), and now you have 2 dead people plus hostile minions, which can screw you over. No matter how good you are, it's very easy for a hero/henchie to die in PvE.

Even in a human group, I wouldn't bring DPS on a MM, just because of the fact that it can potentially harm your party quite a bit more then any other player with DPS.

The Meth · Apr 17, 2008, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The hero AI simply cannot handle a Minion Master build right. Instead you should give it a Minion Bomber build. That's something it can not only do right, but much better than a human.

Honestly, I have never been able to get my hero to use any kind of minion bomber build even half as decent as a normal player would. Olias will cast BotM just fine during battle when he isn't busy making new minions. On the other hand, he stumbles horrible when using death nova, trying to cast it but 90% of the time the minion dies before he finishes. On top of that, he wants to stay 50 feet behind my party casting death nova on minions when he should be casting BotM. IMO the only thing heroes actually use better then a person is Signet of Lost Souls.

Personally I use these as my general all around MM build:

[skill]Jagged Bones[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill][skill]Blood Of the Master[/skill][skill]Foul Feast[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]"Stand Your Ground!"[/skill][skill]"Fall Back!"[/skill]

[skill]Jagged Bones[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Animate Vampiric Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Shambling Horror[/skill][skill]Blood Of the Master[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]"Stand Your Ground!"[/skill][skill]"Fall Back!"[/skill]

Attributes are DM 12 + 3 + 1, SR 10 + 1, Command 8
Shouts are always disabled. Stand Your Ground! is a kind of skill you use when s**t hits the fan and your backline starts taking some serious damage and needs some help. Fall back has the obvious use of being able to get from place to place faster while healing minions, but is also VERY nice when you have a h/h group and you have to flag them out of certain AoE spells fast.

Sometimes I run an AotL MM instead, but I find its too annoying to have to constantly refresh their AotL spell, and if you don't they can suicide when they use it themselves.

Order of Undeath is nice but I find in hard areas the sac usually ends up limiting your ability to use BotM and you end up having less and less minions which takes away any bonus damage you got from using OoU in the first place.

I have tested out giving olias some other things like icy Veins, or even mark of pain/barbs at a decent curse spec in place of the command stuff, he can handle that fairly well but you have to call targets.

As to the debate about a res on a MM, I never bring one. The reason being that I play with henchies, and they already have 2 res sigs. If I take more then 2 deaths in an area I figure its time to go back to the drawing board with my build.

Coloneh · Apr 17, 2008, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

I'd say DPS on your MM is pretty dumb, especially in a h/h group. MM resses dead hero/henchie, that hero/henchie dies within 2 minutes (very possible with h/h), and now you have 2 dead people plus hostile minions, which can screw you over. No matter how good you are, it's very easy for a hero/henchie to die in PvE.

Even in a human group, I wouldn't bring DPS on a MM, just because of the fact that it can potentially harm your party quite a bit more then any other player with DPS.

what kind of heroes are you taking that suicide on rez and why are you taking the terrible henchies. bring decent hero builds and grab things like ranger henchies that dont blow up.

Arkantos · Apr 17, 2008, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

what kind of heroes are you taking that suicide on rez and why are you taking the terrible henchies. bring decent hero builds and grab things like ranger henchies that dont blow up.

I take the kind of heroes everyone else takes, the ones with horrible AI. What ones do you take?

I find it funny that you're telling me to bring decent hero bars, since this really has nothing to do with bars. It has to do with bad AI and how they can easily die. If I was bad and brought monk heroes, I'd have something to micro when a henchie is dying. But sadly PS on a necro isn't enough to keep AI alive. Ranger henchies have a whole 70AL, and have bad positioning, like most other henchies, so I have no clue what you're talking about.

If you PvE without a single party member dying, I'm very sad that I'm not as good as you. But in the Guild Wars I play, the AI is crap, and h/h tend to occasionally die, even as pathetically easy PvE is.

And before you attempt to troll/flame me, I'm not saying PvE is too hard. I'm saying the AI sucks, that is all.

DarkSpirit · Apr 17, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

DPS is the best rez skill in the game (well glyph of sacc + chant is better, but thats 2 slots) hands down. it is easily worth the "risk" (if thats what you want to call it) of losing your MM. there is no way you will be losing your MM. fights last 30 seconds in PvE, so you have maybe a 10 second window for that freshley rezzed character to die, which is nearly impossible unless you are rezzing a bip.

by this time in a fight mobs will already have a target, and as this character is rezzed at the same health as the cast he wont show up on the attack priority of the AI so they wont even get attacked.

What makes you think the MM hero always have full health before ressing someone? For all we know he probably just sac his health to heal his minions, got hit afew times then decide to res someone, which would be the case most of the time.

The guy then comes back from the dead with only 32% energy from the 3 points to restoration and about half health, with DP, then die again. And this time he pulls your MM into death with him and all your minions turn against you.

Quote:

Having no rez on any non-monk is just stupid unless you can double your efficiency by using that one slot.

Having the minions which your MM just sacrificed so much energy, time, and health to maintain, to ALL turn against you is even more dumb. That is like slapping yourself on the face over and over.

When I can always let the other heroes in my party carry DPS instead of the MM.

Quote:

Wiki notes are notorious for being stupid, useless and just plain wrong.

In this case, the wiki is obviously right and you are wrong.

Chthon · Apr 17, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

1. Let me repeat for the third time: Death Pact Signet can be replaced by whatever rez you prefer if you're not confident in your team's ability to use it without consequences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

First because of that one team member's death, you have lost all your minions and your MM at the same time, second, they turned against you. Is it really worth going through all that just for that 1 particular res that you have to put on your MM?

2. Let me repeat for the second time: The low-level minions from a minion bomber should not be a problem for your team unless you're dumb enough to attack them and spike yourself with death nova. (You can just call a monster target, so don't blame the henchies either.) They simply aren't that dangerous without their master manually exploding them.

3. You fundamentally misunderstand the deal with DPS. It doesn't matter how big the penalty is, because it's never going to happen. It could be "resurrect target party member with your life and some energy and if that party member dies within 120 sec your whole party dies and gets a 7-day ban and you computer starts on fire" and it would still be just fine because they're not going to die again within the time limit. Your party should have adequate passive defenses and adequate monks. The first death should have been a serious "oops" moment. And it shouldn't happen again.

4. Say what you like and think what you like. I've never had my minion bomber hero die to DPS while H+Hing, and I've rarely had the other heroes who carry DPS die either . It's entirely possible to play in a way that DPS won't come back to bite you. Which brings me back to where I started: If you can't or won't adopt this style, you don't have to -- just change the rez, play your own way, and quit posting garbage here.

DarkSpirit · Apr 17, 2008, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. Let me repeat for the third time: Death Pact Signet can be replaced by whatever rez you prefer if you're not confident in your team's ability to use it without consequences.

Somebody still insists that DPS on the MM is the right res to bring, but we shouldn't be feeding the trolls.

Quote:

2. Let me repeat for the second time: The low-level minions from a minion bomber should not be a problem for your team unless you're dumb enough to attack them and spike yourself with death nova. (You can just call a monster target, so don't blame the henchies either.) They simply aren't that dangerous without their master manually exploding them.

The damage from the minions themselves is not as big a problem as the bleeding and aoe Poison from Jagged Horrors and Death Nova. As long as the minions die while being enchanted with death nova, they would explode and Death Nova damage/poison will be spreaded. And even if you can heal through both your minions and monsters hammering you at the same time, why even bother to go through that? When I can just choose not to carry DPS on my MM and save myself all that trouble?

Why did your MM even bother to sac his health and spent all that energy to maintain his army when you would have to fight them in the end?

Quote:

3. You fundamentally misunderstand the deal with DPS. It doesn't matter how big the penalty is, because it's never going to happen. It could be "resurrect target party member with your life and some energy and if that party member dies within 120 sec your whole party dies and gets a 7-day ban and you computer starts on fire" and it would still be just fine because they're not going to die again within the time limit. Your party should have adequate passive defenses and adequate monks. The first death should have been a serious "oops" moment. And it shouldn't happen again.

Then you are asumming that no one in the party would have more than 1 death in ALL battles and the highest DP anyone in your party would ever get is 15% AT ALL TIMES, in HM, even without using consummables. I dont believe that would always hold true for even a minute.

Quote:

4. Say what you like and think what you like. I've never had my minion bomber hero die to DPS while H+Hing, and I've rarely had the other heroes who carry DPS die either . It's entirely possible to play in a way that DPS won't come back to bite you. Which brings me back to where I started: If you can't or won't adopt this style, you don't have to -- just change the rez, play your own way, and quit posting garbage here.

I have seen heroes die through DPS, it is just that when they die through DPS they dont get further death penalty, so you may not notice it if you dont pay attention during the battle.

And putting DPS on a MM is still silly, when I can just put it on another hero and avoid all these issues in the first place.

Stuart444 · Apr 17, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

*looks at all posts since he was last year* umm ^^; thanks for all the suggestions people, apperciate it

Olias certainly helped though in my last mission as a MM, much more than before when his DM was at 12 >_>

Anime Divine · Apr 17, 2008, 08:29 AM // 08:29

ive been toying with mm builds
so anyone know order of the vampire works on minions?
well i can say it works sometimes as me being a war

also added putrid explosion. ever since i discovered angorodon monsters pwn my face tottally causing almost near wipes

Antithesis · Apr 17, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anime Divine

so anyone know order of the vampire works on minions?

No it doesn't work on Minions. Order of Undeath does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anime Divine

also added putrid explosion. ever since i discovered angorodon monsters pwn my face tottally causing almost near wipes

Putrid Explosion is a waste even in high-corpse areas. A Minion Bomber would otherwise use that corpse and blow up a couple of his own bombs to maintain at most 10 Minions, which would set off Death Nova and grant energy from Soul Reaping to all Necs in the party.

BlueNovember · Apr 17, 2008, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And when they die with Death Nova beside you, guess who gets poisoned and damaged? You and your team.

Actually, it wouldn't. It was fixed along with a whole load of damage enchants (balth aura, ...a-rage?) after someone made a big bug thread listing the fun you could have with [Verata's Aura] and [skill]Contemplation of Purity[/skill].

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

stupid henchies (which are set to default aggressive) attack the jagged horrors would cause more damage and bleeding.

Jagged cause bleeding when they attack, not when they are attacked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

[death pact signet resses] with only 32% energy

Indeed it does. The only other res skill that I can think of with higher energy upon res is restore-life with high healing. 32% is a lot to be res'd with.
--

Personally I'd happily take death-pact (seriously, DPS = Damage per second ¬_¬) on an MM. I want my SS to keep casting and my n/rt to keep healing. I'd say you'd be far worse off if they died.

Remember that when an MM dies its minions don't suddenly gang-bang your party. They need to lose their current target (for w/e reason) before they can chose to attack your party. Even then, they're still considering the enemy in their choice.
--

Edit: On a separate note, I don't even carry [skill]Blood of the Master[/skill]. Generally new corpses become available to replace dying minions anyway. If they don't, I'd argue that you're going too slowly. :P

Alex the Great · Apr 17, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul Saver

Also work towards capping [Animate Flesh Golem] cause its the best for an mm. hope this helps.

[jagged bones]
[Order of Undeath]

both beat flesh golem's, but people like fleshie's cause they think they actually do some dps.

jagged is the best for a hero, because they maintain it really well, and undeath is really good becuase it allows you to bring vampric horrors to counteract the sacrafice.

Spaced Invader · Apr 17, 2008, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

DPS is the best rez skill in the game (well glyph of sacc + chant is better, but thats 2 slots) hands down. it is easily worth the "risk" (if thats what you want to call it) of losing your MM. there is no way you will be losing your MM. fights last 30 seconds in PvE, so you have maybe a 10 second window for that freshley rezzed character to die, which is nearly impossible unless you are rezzing a bip.

If for you, no fight in PvE lasts longer than 30 seconds (I'd really like to see you in action vanquishing Joko's Domain, Eastern Frontier etc. in Hardmode), than congratulations to you.
For the average player -- who comes to Guru and thinks that every word here is pure wisdom -- that simply does not hold true, though.

Since the rez is done by the AI, judgement is so poor that "rezkills" are not unusual at all. A stupid hench getting ripped apart by 5 Maelstorms, the poor AI rezzing him with Death Pact Signet just where he died, so that he will die again instantly.
If it's not the MM who rezzed him, I don't really care. It's 4 more minions with 4 more Death Novas. And it means not losing my current minions, so it means even more Death Novas (because you can't keep casting DN on rogue minions).
And -- in case you run Sabway and unless you run a high damage build on your own char -- the Minion Bomber is pretty much the main damage source in your group (the Hero SS is just too poor in its judgement to qualify for that title).

Quote:

Having no rez on any non-monk is just stupid unless you can double your efficiency by using that one slot.

Oh, why? Don't your fights never last longer than 30 seconds? Isn't it impossible to die twice during a fight?
So, shouldn't 3(+2=5) Hardrezzes in a H/H already be enough if PvE is that easy for you?
Why squeeze another rez on the MM if PvE is such a joke to you? You really shouldn't need it.

As a matter of fact, even a scrub like me rather easily vanquished every area without any rez at all on my MM. Never needed it.

Quote:

Wiki notes are notorious for being stupid, useless and just plain wrong.

And yet they are far more reasonable than your arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. Let me repeat for the third time: Death Pact Signet can be replaced by whatever rez you prefer if you're not confident in your team's ability to use it without consequences.

You can repeat yourself for the fourth or 28th time for all I care. It won't stop us from discussing the Death Pact Signet On A MM issue.

Quote:

2. Let me repeat for the second time: The low-level minions from a minion bomber should not be a problem for your team unless you're dumb enough to attack them and spike yourself with death nova. (You can just call a monster target, so don't blame the henchies either.) They simply aren't that dangerous without their master manually exploding them.

Oh yea, so true. Except for this:
a) Henchies often don't react instantly on your calls
b) AoE attacks are usually brought and used in PvE (Cynn's fireworks, the SS Hero, your own build... everything that is considered a damage dealer in PvE usually deals AoE damage) and attacking a foe will almost automatically result in also attacking the minions
c) That aside, it's not that much about the danger of getting killed by the own minions. But the risk of losing one of your main damage sources, since your MM can't keep putting Death Novas on rogue minions (in case he gets rezzed instantly).
Of course it's also partly about using control over your meat shields, which are part of the groups defense.

In a nutshell: The MM usually the cruicial component of any H/H group, and putting him at unnecessary risk (via Death Pact) is just... well, unnecessary.

Even more because you regard all PvE as such an easy trial where deaths hardly ever occur:

Quote:

3. You fundamentally misunderstand the deal with DPS. It doesn't matter how big the penalty is, because it's never going to happen. It could be "resurrect target party member with your life and some energy and if that party member dies within 120 sec your whole party dies and gets a 7-day ban and you computer starts on fire" and it would still be just fine because they're not going to die again within the time limit. Your party should have adequate passive defenses and adequate monks. The first death should have been a serious "oops" moment. And it shouldn't happen again.

If PvE seriously is such a breeze for you (congratulations to you, too), and deaths are just "oops moments" that shouldn't happen again... hell, why not just use the Rez Signets on your Henchies. They get recharged every once in a while anyway.
Throw in a rez on your own bar, two Death Pact Signets on the other two heroes and you should have more than enough to counter your occasional "oops moments".
(Like I said, it actually does work great even without any rez on the MM.)

Quote:

4. Say what you like and think what you like. I've never had my minion bomber hero die to DPS while H+Hing, and I've rarely had the other heroes who carry DPS die either . It's entirely possible to play in a way that DPS won't come back to bite you. Which brings me back to where I started: If you can't or won't adopt this style, you don't have to -- just change the rez, play your own way, and quit posting garbage here.

Just because you survived jumping from a bridge, doesn't make jumping from bridges a smart move.
Just because you can easily bring a hero with Frenzy + Healing Signet and still vanquish every map and clear every dungeon in hardmode -- with the right playstyle -- doesn't make it a smart move either.
(Oh yea, and Death Pact Signet on a MM occurs to me as similary bright.)

And remember, sadly the thousands of casual players who come here as lurkers for advice, take most of the stuff they read on Guru as written in stone.
So if others point our certain weaknesses in your arguments (no matter if there's some small sidenote in your text, which you're going to repeat 10 times like a robot) don't be so defensive.
We just want to protect less experienced GW players from your... garbage.

Super Igor · Apr 17, 2008, 11:40 AM // 11:40

DPS on an MM if well, a fail.

Its not even worth discussing here you see, DPS puts you MM to high and extremely unnecesary risk, which is, If the one rezzed person dies again, even by bad luck you MM dies! An you MM is the main source of defence, thing that porevents mo bs getting to your backline, yes, you can be a total peace of noobliness and say something like "Who needs hiding behind a minion wall, minions are just for little green triangles which make you fell good" but no, hiding behind a minion all is a large part of being succesful in HM PvE and if you minion wall is gone you will have a very hard time and you spirits wont hep much at all, generally a rez on an MM is redundant as sometimes the hero might consider ressing someone before raising a minion from that someones corpse very irretating.

Here, really, dont use DPS on an MM, dont make the poor guy suffer. Hey dont give him rez at all.

~Super Igor

~

Spaced Invader · Apr 17, 2008, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueNovember

Personally I'd happily take death-pact (seriously, DPS = Damage per second ¬_¬) on an MM. I want my SS to keep casting and my n/rt to keep healing. I'd say you'd be far worse off if they died.

I'd rather have my MM creating new corpses out of the just-died teammates, and keep on applying Death Novas on my minions -- maintaining my flesh wall at the same time, and not having to start over with zero minions (for bombing purposes) again -- instead of giving my SS the time to apply a hex or two more.
And the N/Rt is usually backed up by two Hench monks, not to mention that rezzing only takes him out for 3 seconds. Besides: Once someone dies, usually all heroes will start using Death Pact anyway.

Sabway is using 2 DPS on the SS and N/Rt-healer (and no DPS/rez on the bomber) for a reason.
No matter whether you are a fan of wiki-builds or consider them as "stupid bs per se".

Targuil · Apr 17, 2008, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Nice variant for condition heavy places:
N/Mo
Soul reaping 9+1
Death magic 12+1+(1-3)
Protection prayers 9
rest to whatever you want

[skill]Martyr[/skill][skill]infuse condition[/skill][skill]animate bone minions[/skill][skill]death nova[/skill][skill]blood of the master[/skill][skill]aegis[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]
Yeah, pretty much modified sab minion bomber.

Super Igor · Apr 17, 2008, 01:22 PM // 13:22

why martir > foul feast? you can do the exact same thing with foul feast without wastin an elite slot.

~Super Igor

~

MagmaRed · Apr 17, 2008, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

why martir > foul feast? you can do the exact same thing with foul feast without wastin an elite slot.

~Super Igor

~

Although I agree the elite is wasted in that build, Martyr removes conditions from the entire team with one use, while Foul Feast only removes them from 1 player. [Contagion]+[Foul Feast]+[Infuse Condition] would work nicely.