Curse

A Leprechaun · Sep 24, 2008, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

Monk skills are way less powerful without divine favor. rit skills dont need it, they jusnt need some crazy energy managment. plus you can get heal and prot in one attribute.

"Oh noes my WoH only healz for 188 health, I wish I had the +32 health from DF, if only."
With the power of WoH you don't need Divine Favor.

~A Leprechaun~

avilia · Sep 24, 2008, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

99% of Sabway builds bring Aegis and Prot Spirit on the bomber so that's a mute point.

Personally I find the N/Rit far more versatile covering prot/condition removal/spammable heals/rez/armor bonus and offense all on the same bar at acceptable potency.Monks simply can't bring that much to the table and while they may be able to heal for more whats the point if it's overkill?

Hmmm, you have a point. N/Mo with HB heals more and faster, but N/Rt indeed seems more versatile and since my two most important prot spells are on my MM too, going N/Rt does seem like the way to go.

Quote:

"Oh noes my WoH only healz for 188 health, I wish I had the +32 health from DF, if only."
With the power of WoH you don't need Divine Favor.

Yes, but that's only if the target is below 50% health. Personally I would like to prevent partymembers from getting below 50%. WoH isn't my number one choice on heros.

-Lotus- · Sep 24, 2008, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Leprechaun

"Oh noes my WoH only healz for 188 health, I wish I had the +32 health from DF, if only."
With the power of WoH you don't need Divine Favor.

I was talking more about RoF. it's still the greatest monking skill in the game.

Teutonic Paladin · Sep 24, 2008, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

99% of Sabway builds bring Aegis and Prot Spirit on the bomber so that's a mute point.
Personally I find the N/Rit far more versatile covering prot/condition removal/spammable heals/rez/armor bonus and offense all on the same bar at acceptable potency.Monks simply can't bring that much to the table and while they may be able to heal for more whats the point if it's overkill?
I tend to find the AI handles the N/Rit bar better than it does monks and I also found monks tend to get targeted WAY more than my rit ever has although that's speculative comment after minimal testing.
N/Mo's are all good, I use them every now and then especially in hex heavy areas, but the trend and popularity of the N/Rit speaks for itself, all opinions aside.People have already worked out the numbers.

I don't think Aegis is a good idea on the Bomber, but that's more of a personal opinion than having to do with effectiveness. However, it never hurts to have an additional copy of Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond, and even if you did want to exclude yourself to one, you receive a free skill slot on the bomber. I highly doubt that secondary professions are taken into account by the targeting AI. Monk heals are more spammable and hex removal actually exists.

NRt prot is a joke, Xunlai's Weapon reduces the damage from one hit, and it must be microed continuously. Weapon of Shadow is nice, but it can only be maintained half the time, and has an enormous recharge. The problem is that people haven't worked the numbers. Take the following bar (Probably far from optimal, I just made it up):

12 Heal 11+1+1 SR 6 Prot
Healer's Boon, Orison, Patient Spirit, Protective Spirit, Shield of Absorption, Cure Hex/Remove Hex, Heal Party, Vengeance

Patient is a practically instant cast 153 point heal (vs Spirit Light 156 with chance to sacrifice 17%), Orison is a 90 point 1/2 cast heal(vs 96 MBaS), Shield of Absorption is (in my opinion) the best prot in HM and you have a far stronger party heal.

You lose +24 armor and an unstoppable guardian. You gain more healing, faster casting healing (completely avoid the cancel glitch), Hex Removal, and strong prots. This isn't even taking WoH into account which is probably far stronger than HB. RoF is a great skill in PvP, in PvE you're far more likely to catch a 17 damage sword swing. WoH and the incredible healing power it boasts are far superior to anything RoF will do for you in PvE. If your hero isn't below 50%, you give them a strong 105 point heal every three seconds, if they're below 50%, they get a 200 point heal. Player and heroes alike perform just as well no matter what their health is (provided it isn't 0) and there's no reason to keep them above 50% unless they're in danger of being spiked down.

The only reason to use an NRt is to abuse Splinter Weapon and rely on MM Prot. If you aren't running a physical based build, there's no reason to have Splinter Weapon and no reason to run an NRt. NMo has at least equal healing potential if not more, and better utility.

DarkSpirit · Sep 24, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

I don't think Aegis is a good idea on the Bomber, but that's more of a personal opinion than having to do with effectiveness. However, it never hurts to have an additional copy of Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond, and even if you did want to exclude yourself to one, you receive a free skill slot on the bomber. I highly doubt that secondary professions are taken into account by the targeting AI. Monk heals are more spammable and hex removal actually exists.

NRt prot is a joke, Xunlai's Weapon reduces the damage from one hit, and it must be microed continuously. Weapon of Shadow is nice, but it can only be maintained half the time, and has an enormous recharge. The problem is that people haven't worked the numbers. Take the following bar (Probably far from optimal, I just made it up):

12 Heal 11+1+1 SR 6 Prot
Healer's Boon, Orison, Patient Spirit, Protective Spirit, Shield of Absorption, Cure Hex/Remove Hex, Heal Party, Vengeance

Patient is a practically instant cast 153 point heal (vs Spirit Light 156 with chance to sacrifice 17%), Orison is a 90 point 1/2 cast heal(vs 96 MBaS), Shield of Absorption is (in my opinion) the best prot in HM and you have a far stronger party heal.

You lose +24 armor and an unstoppable guardian. You gain more healing, faster casting healing (completely avoid the cancel glitch), Hex Removal, and strong prots. This isn't even taking WoH into account which is probably far stronger than HB. RoF is a great skill in PvP, in PvE you're far more likely to catch a 17 damage sword swing. WoH and the incredible healing power it boasts are far superior to anything RoF will do for you in PvE. If your hero isn't below 50%, you give them a strong 105 point heal every three seconds, if they're below 50%, they get a 200 point heal. Player and heroes alike perform just as well no matter what their health is (provided it isn't 0) and there's no reason to keep them above 50% unless they're in danger of being spiked down.

The only reason to use an NRt is to abuse Splinter Weapon and rely on MM Prot. If you aren't running a physical based build, there's no reason to have Splinter Weapon and no reason to run an NRt. NMo has at least equal healing potential if not more, and better utility.

It is not just the amount of hp healed, you have to look at the amount healed per unit of energy. You cant just add HB which you need to recast every 10s while pretending that it is totally free. Even with Soul Reaping it is still possible to get your N/Mo into low energy if your team is in trouble because monk spells are more expensive.

While comparing MBaS against Orison, you also ignored the fact that MBaS removes 1 condition per spirit besides just healing. In a team build with both Life and Recovery (e.g. Discordway), MBaS heals for 96 heath and removes 2 conditions at the same time. Spirit Light also does not need to sac health if a spirit is close by. Orison only heals for 60 health and needs HB to move it up to 90 heals, which takes up an elite spot and assumming no enchant stripping. Spirit Light heals for 156 health for the same energy cost of patient spirit's 102 heal and you dont need to wait for 2s for the heal to come. Heal Party is 15e for 66 heal, PwK is 10e for 70 heal and +24 armor.

Splinter is not a healing spell so it shouldn't even be in the comparison table and we already have PS/Aegis and other protection spells covered by another N/Mo. You need to give a fair comparison otherwise your argument is just not convincing.

Cathode_Reborn · Sep 24, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34

You honestly can't really compare them.

HB necs can heal for 440+ in about 2 secs. It has hex removal and can bring PS if needed.

The strength of N/Rt's are party-healing and Wep of Warding. Their direct healing is pretty lousy compared to a monk or an HB N/Mo.

Necs spec'ing into prot are completely different but still effective - I still use them alot in some areas.

eximiis · Sep 24, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Because i'm playing a Dervish, i prefer the N/Mo version because of the enchantment.

As for the party heals i bring a D/N order with mystic healing and Vow of piety.

I found lately that switching the N/Rt with the D/N and having 2 monk hench goes pretty well. I haven't see any difference in the healing. In my situattion, the D/N is almost better. Yes party healz are smaller but you get party healz every 5 seconds.

DarkSpirit · Sep 24, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Necs spec'ing into prot are completely different but still effective - I still use them alot in some areas.

You shouldn't bring Prots into the comparison because there is already another N/Mo that is specced to prot. If you spec another N/Mo to go hybrid, then you can't have as high a SR.

Also like I have already said, 2 reasons to use a N/Mo rather than a N/Rt are prots and hex removal.

If you are comparing heals and condition removal, then N/Rt is better for longer fight since their healing spells cost less. N/Mo heal spells maybe able to spike heal for alot with HB, but they are like the 100m sprinters who may not be the best marathon runners in a longer fight.

Tyla · Sep 24, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

You don't really need a high level in Soul Reaping for it to be effective.

Onto the topic. I might run it, but I really prefer the more offensive capabilities of the N/Rt. Splinter Weapon can be ran aswell as Weapon of Warding for blocks and PWK for partywide healing. If you were going wholly defensive, I would use a N/Mo with the following:

[protective spirit][aegis][shield of absorption][word of healing][dwayna's kiss][dwayna's sorrow][foul feast][reverse hex]

8+1+1 Soul Reaping, 11 Healing Prayers, 11 Protection Prayers.

I might swap out Heal Party for Dwayna's Kiss, but meh.

DarkSpirit · Sep 24, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

You don't really need a high level in Soul Reaping for it to be effective.

Even so, there are not many good prot spells that heroes use well, so I haven't found a need to include both a protector N/Mo + a hybrid N/Mo in the same team build. And I prefer to max my healing attribute anyway but 2 hybrids may still work well especially in a 6-heroes team.

Cathode_Reborn · Sep 24, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You shouldn't bring Prots into the comparison because there is already another N/Mo that is specced to prot. If you spec another N/Mo to go hybrid, then you can't have as high a SR.

Replace the N/Rt with a dedciated prot N/Mo, allowing the hybrid N/Mo to free up skillspace, attribute points, and his 2ndary prof....*gasp*

Yes I know it's shocking. I can't imagine how boring it'd be to copy/paste builds and never bother to tweak them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Even so, there are not many good prot spells that heroes use well....

They use the money skills just fine: PS, SB, Aegis, etc.

DarkSpirit · Sep 24, 2008, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Replace the N/Rt with a dedciated prot N/Mo, allowing the hybrid N/Mo to free up skillspace, attribute points, and his 2ndary prof....*gasp*

Yes I know it's shocking. I can't imagine how boring it'd be to copy/paste builds and never bother to tweak them.

If that is your intention, then you dont need a hybrid in the first place.

Cathode_Reborn · Sep 24, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

If that is your intention, then you dont need a hybrid in the first place.

Exacly, which is why I suggested dropping all the monk skills from the N/Mo MM. You leave it all to the 2nd N/Mo who can dedicate itself to prots without having split attributes along with having it's elite open.

A Leprechaun · Sep 25, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Just a quick question, if I have a N/Mo healer set on avoid combat will he/she still use SoLs well if not at all?

~A Leprechuan~

Mr Pink57 · Sep 25, 2008, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Leprechaun

Just a quick question, if I have a N/Mo healer set on avoid combat will he/she still use SoLs well if not at all?

~A Leprechuan~

Won't use it.

pink

Arafinwe · Sep 25, 2008, 08:08 AM // 08:08

n/mo in avoid mode won't use signet of lost souls, but none of my heroes really spam that skill. I needed room so none of my heroes carry the signet anymore.

the n/mo is more mobile ans less depend of ashes and spirits, the n/mo hasn't got any long casting times. while the n/rt is casting his/her spirit u might die. when the n/rt holds the ashes he/she loses alot of energy, the n/mo has a steady energy pool with no sudden changes. also the n/mo can change his skills before any area, need more protection? no problem just change some skills and attributes, need something agianst knockdown, hexes, sin pressure or condition, agian this is no problem. monk are with a good reason the primairy healers of the game

however if u use an n/mo the other 2 heroes almost need to be n/rt. the monk can deal better with damage on one guy then party-wide damage. so if u give your SS and MM the ashes protective was ... they can deal with area effects, traps, and aoe damage.

I have vanquished an few area's with n/rt before changing to n/mo, work alot better for me less deaths during vanquishing. or I just don't like rt's and blamed them for the deaths

btw
"99% of Sabway builds bring Aegis and Prot Spirit on the bomber so that's a mute point." the bomber is to busy with her/his minions to fully exploit the use of ps and aegis

Moloch Vein · Sep 25, 2008, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Cathode is right.

And N/Rt has no hex removal.

fireflyry · Sep 25, 2008, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

Monk heals are more spammable and hex removal actually exists.

Remove Hex pretty much shoots that argument down.

Typical Sabway has a N/Mo bomber and an SS/Curses Necro with a free secondary.

2 x Remove Hex is all I've ever needed and that's really the "win" for the whole argument.

N/Mo will out-heal a N/Rit any day of the week.Arguing that is futile.N/Rit brings more to the bar and does it all well.If N/Mo was better it would have become the norm 6 months ago...it has'nt.

Exactly.

Cathode_Reborn · Sep 25, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

If N/Mo was better it would have become the norm 6 months ago...it has'nt.

Exactly.

The majority of PvE'ers never use what's most effective - they always run what everyone else is. From my personal experience, most people were runnin pure junk before the builds were posted. The majority hasn't got any better since then. The average H/H'er really isn't that different from a typical pug. It's not a surprise that Guru's hero section is dull and repetitive.

fireflyry · Sep 25, 2008, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

It's not a surprise that Guru's hero section is dull and repetitive.

I disagree.

It's dull and repetitive due to the game being stagnant.N/Rit just has more to offer and does the job better.

We can argue all day about it, break out our calculators and discuss it to death.It doesn't change the majority rule, trend or popularity.That will always have more sway and relevance than one persons personal opinion, like it or not.

If you say the majority is using N/Rit due to ignorance that's your call.I'm more than happy to agree to disagree.