Curse

FoxBat · Oct 30, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21

You came here for help? I think you must be lost, this is Guru.

Minions primary purpose is actually to serve as decoys, a very powerful defense when your guys aren't even being attacked. Their secondary purpose is of course tons of domage, but you can't really control where the damage goes. An Imbagon provides an insane level of defense all on his own (80%+ damage reduction) so that you don't need the minion defense just to survive, and while dealing less DPS than full sab setup, the damage is perfectly focused on high-priority targets that you call. This allows dangerous or healer mobs to be downed quickly, so then you just have an easy battle mopping up the remaining enemies.

ALF71BE · Oct 30, 2008, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Who cares?

Paras are imba. Worry when you play a profession that requires 0.00001% more skill.

Until then, just run whatever floats your boat. Go Sabway but put Dark Fury on the curses necro, you don't need a high blood magic investment anyways, and run some N/Mo with heavy hex removal and you're set. 82% less damage really makes a difference, dunno if you noted.

Daesu · Oct 30, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

Who cares?

Paras are imba. Worry when you play a profession that requires 0.00001% more skill.

Until then, just run whatever floats your boat. Go Sabway but put Dark Fury on the curses necro, you don't need a high blood magic investment anyways, and run some N/Mo with heavy hex removal and you're set. 82% less damage really makes a difference, dunno if you noted.

Just because we claim that a build has its weaknesses, doesn't mean we have no skill. Please name me a perfect build and I will show you its weaknesses.

Imbagons are not as invincible as everyone seem to think. And SY doesn't protect against all damage either. There exists areas in the game where certain damages can get through SY or prevents adrenaline gain or shouts. But of course most people dont know that and still think Imbagons can never ever fail.

ALF71BE · Oct 30, 2008, 04:36 AM // 04:36

No, the Paras aren't. The team is, though, and then seven allies can both focus on keeping the Paragon alive and deal damage to the enemies.

Besides life stealing, I can't think of any other very dangerous insta-gib damage that the Paras don't protect against. Everything else just can't be spammed enough to be threatening, and you have the N/Mo I mentioned to remove hexes from you (Divert Hexes).

And in the case of life stealing, the henchies are able to outheal it. Further more, since you're using Dark Fury you might as well bring a melee henchie, who will take the life stealing and leave you alone.

Racthoh · Oct 30, 2008, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Dark Fury is not required to maintain a near permanent uptime of "Save Yourselves!", especially after the buff. Dark Fury allows you to use your attack skills more frequently as energy is less of an issue. However it should be noted that unless you are fighting something that can heal itself/others, there is really no reason to use the attack skills at all. With the damage reduction of "Save Yourselves!" and "There's Nothing To Fear!" the henchmen AI is more than capable of keeping up with whatever damage you may suffer. Healer Henchmen from Factions are an exception since they use Blessed Light to removed Cracked Armor caused by Aggressive Refrain; stick with the Protection and Spirit henchmen for Cantha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

It also has more utility like enfeebling blood, body blocking minions and enchantment removal.

You have the choice of looking over an area to see if any of that is necessary. "Save Yourselves!" makes weakness rather unnecessary, minions are about the same but at least they can explode with Death Nova and hopefully hit something. Enchantment Removal isn't entirely necessary when you have access to Daze, swap to another target, or simply wait for it to expire. When I'm zoning to an area I'm going to optimize my bars for what I think will be the most difficult and frequent encounters. I have Morgahn posted with Hexbreaker Aria to basically say "put what you want here", because in a lot of situations it simply isn't necessary.

Discordway is going to be the better choice on the basis that Soul Reaping probably won't be changed ever again and the odds of PvE skills getting nerfed are just as slim. That and people who run triple necro teams do so with ease but I get people asking me why they keep dying with my setup.

Daesu · Oct 30, 2008, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

No, the Paras aren't. The team is, though, and then seven allies can both focus on keeping the Paragon alive and deal damage to the enemies.

Besides life stealing, I can't think of any other very dangerous insta-gib damage that the Paras don't protect against. Everything else just can't be spammed enough to be threatening, and you have the N/Mo I mentioned to remove hexes from you (Divert Hexes).

And in the case of life stealing, the henchies are able to outheal it. Further more, since you're using Dark Fury you might as well bring a melee henchie, who will take the life stealing and leave you alone.

Don't forget the Imbagon is the only human character in the team who can spam SY so when the Imbagon dies, the whole super SY protecting everyone else concept falls apart. Besides, SY doesn't protect the Imbagon himself.

Life stealing is one, degen is another. Besides SY can also be prevented through proper hexes or impacted by attack speed debuff, block, and so on.

Dark Fury also has its weaknesses, namely the necro hero that is casting it is vulnerable to a 17% life sac every 5s. If you add OOP also into the mix that is a hp loss of 34% life sac every 5s, not even counting monster hits. If you do the math on a 600hp necro, that is a hp loss of 204 hp every 5s without taking even a single hit, which is definitely a drain on healing.

Melee henchies and heroes have pathing problems especially when encountering AoE attacks. The build is far from perfect. Again there is no perfect team build be it paraway or necroway.

-Lotus- · Oct 30, 2008, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

If it's good, then someone should be able to explain, don't just say "try it". I just don't see how it can be better than necroway.

uhm... everything is good about it? crazy damage, invincable, easy, utility, hat more do you want?

Quote:

Specifically, how do you get around blocking/enchants?? I mean, rhilon's refuge would be a HUGE pain to do without enchant removal.

switch targets.... duh...

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And there's no MM?? MM's have been so awesome to me, why would you not have one?

MMs are just a distraction and a base for MoP to do some damage. mininons dont do any noticeable damage on their own. when you have SY you dont need to waste a character keeping the enemy off your team.

Xeng Suey · Oct 30, 2008, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Well, I wouldn't use any other healer than an N/Rt or a Henchie, but I use Sab / Discord because I'm a lazy bastard who can't be bothered microing. ^_____________^

I agree with most of your post however, excluding the Searing Flames bit.

I'm glad u point it, because i forget to mention that i use searing flames, not only because of the damge, but also because of the dmg reduction that cames from "Theyr on fire". I would try to fit that shout or chant (or w/e it is) in one of the paras build. Besides...you could always bring other profession, like a rit whith splinter life kaolais chaneling strike or ancestors (in this case i think that rit heroe would have to microed) or ou can take a Domination mesmer whith visions of regret and interrupts....i dotn know, there is so many things you can do, and depending on the area that we could do a entire encyclo pedia about it

gl hf

ALF71BE · Oct 30, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Don't forget the Imbagon is the only human character in the team who can spam SY so when the Imbagon dies, the whole super SY protecting everyone else concept falls apart. Besides, SY doesn't protect the Imbagon himself.

Yes I know. Read again please. You have seven other, near invincible allies, that can and should both protect you and deal damage to the mobs.

so i herd you could link skills from ur heros to ur keyboard and then not die if you're being so annoyingly disturbed by the mobs.

Quote:

degen

Lol.

Quote:

Besides SY can also be prevented through proper hexes or impacted by attack speed debuff

If you have any experience with a martial class I think you should know by now that you need serious hex removal most of the time. Read my post again.

Quote:

block

TAB.

Quote:

Dark Fury also has its weaknesses, namely the necro hero that is casting it is vulnerable to a 17% life sac every 5s. If you add OOP also into the mix that is a hp loss of 34% life sac every 5s, not even counting monster hits. If you do the math on a 600hp necro, that is a hp loss of 204 hp every 5s without taking even a single hit, which is definitely a drain on healing.

Never said anything about OoP. And it won't be losing any substantial hp from hits as it won't get hit at all.

Quote:

Melee henchies and heroes have pathing problems especially when encountering AoE attacks. The build is far from perfect. Again there is no perfect team build be it paraway or necroway.

I said use the melee as cannon fodder.

And never mentioned anything about perfect builds. Just that you don't need one as long as you have 82% damage reduction (even more with TNtF!).

I think you should reconsider your actual builds if you're having problems in PvE with 82% less damage.

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Just because we claim that a build has its weaknesses, doesn't mean we have no skill. Please name me a perfect build and I will show you its weaknesses.

He isn't saying that people are skillless, he's saying that Paragons require little to no skill to be effective. Face it, you can roll your head on the keyboard and come out with good results.

Quote:

Imbagons are not as invincible as everyone seem to think. And SY doesn't protect against all damage either. There exists areas in the game where certain damages can get through SY or prevents adrenaline gain or shouts. But of course most people dont know that and still think Imbagons can never ever fail.

Well considering that there haven't been any complaints about Imbagons failing yet, that is possibly true. Just because it doesn't have many counters doesn't mean a few more skill slots can counter those very counters will mean anything; the huge defenses of the skill outweighs alot of skill slots and is worth it by far.

AtomicMew · Oct 30, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Discordway is going to be the better choice on the basis that Soul Reaping probably won't be changed ever again and the odds of PvE skills getting nerfed are just as slim. That and people who run triple necro teams do so with ease but I get people asking me why they keep dying with my setup.

12-12
SY!
TNTF!
Swift Javelin
YMLAD!
Aggressive Refrain
Focused Anger
FGJ!
Signet of Aggression

11-9-8-8
Discord
Foul Feast
SolS
enfeebling blood
Suffering
rip enchantment
recovery
weapon of Warding
Mend Body and Soul

11-11-8
Discord
Putrid Bile
SoLS
Life
Spirit Light
Soothing Memories
Weapon of Warding
Protective Was Kaolai

12-9-9
Discord
Rotting Flesh
Putrid Bile
Animate Shambling
Animate Bone Fiends
Death Nova
Aegis
Prot Spirit

With option of putting hex removal on the minion bomber. Looks solid?

Super Igor · Oct 31, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

You know, something tells me that discordway might be a better choice than racway. =/

I mean, you have the same on-target damage, can take down healers and all sorts of stuff really fast, thus having an exploding minion wall and much more direct heal, you also dont worry about blocking, blind and nasty shout preventing hexes/wells as much.

And dark fury can be easily fitted on one of your discorders as someone allready mentioned doesnt need high investement.

Racway just looks nice, makes you run something different and enjoy the synergy, also is less boring.

Daesu · Oct 31, 2008, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

Yes I know. Read again please. You have seven other, near invincible allies, that can and should both protect you and deal damage to the mobs.

Yeah near invincible allies with OOP and DF sacrificing 200+hp every 5s.

How is that good again?

And I dont even need DF to keep up my SY.

Quote:

TAB.

Doesn't work for the multiple Aegis Charrs outside doomlore.

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I think you should reconsider your actual builds if you're having problems in PvE with 82% less damage.

Ever heard of armor ignoring damages?

If you are trying to argue with me that Racway (aka Paraway) is totally invincible and can NEVER EVER fail, you need to try much harder than that. Rac himself admitted problems with the build in certain areas without major changes, so are you trying to say that you run his own build better than the author himself?

Tyla · Oct 31, 2008, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Doesn't work for the multiple Aegis Charrs outside doomlore.

Take heavy disruption or Mirror of Disenchantment.

Quote:

Ever heard of armor ignoring damages?

If you are trying to argue with me that Racway (aka Paraway) is totally invincible and can NEVER EVER fail, you need to try much harder than that.

Unless your teammates who are incharge of healing are godawful, you shouldn't be dying. The only area I would agree with you are areas with heavy Twisting Jaws.

Daesu · Oct 31, 2008, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Take heavy disruption or Mirror of Disenchantment.

Yes, that was one of the major tweaks that Rac suggested before too for that area.

Quote:

Unless your teammates who are incharge of healing are godawful, you shouldn't be dying. The only area I would agree with you are areas with heavy Twisting Jaws.

You know, I am going to go with the pretty safe assumption that Rac knows Racway better than you guys considering that he created it in the first place.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=97

ALF71BE · Oct 31, 2008, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

snip

Do me a favor and stop posting until you read all of one post points.

I'm not even going to quote myself because it will be good for you to read.

Daesu · Oct 31, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

Do me a favor and stop posting until you read all of one post points.

I'm not even going to quote myself because it will be good for you to read.

I did but what I read from you about the build contradicted what I read from Rac's thread. There are real problems (i.e. dying) in certain areas in the game. I think I have read almost every single post on his thread, have you?

I respect Rac not just because he is experienced, but he is also very honest on the pros and cons of his own build.

ALF71BE · Oct 31, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

WTF are you talking about, I didn't said anything about Racway!

Daesu · Oct 31, 2008, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

WTF are you talking about, I didn't said anything about Racway!

Doesn't matter. Imbagons are not invicible, whether you use Racway or necroway and I trust Rac did make a good attempt on coming up with one of the best H/H builds for an imbagon. Even so, he admitted there are problems and he is one of the best paragon players in the game.

Imbagons are great, but not invincible.

AtomicMew · Oct 31, 2008, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

12-12
SY!
TNTF!
Swift Javelin

EBSoH
Aggressive Refrain
Focused Anger
FGJ!

11-9-8-8
Discord
Foul Feast
enfeebling blood
Suffering
rip enchantment
recovery
weapon of Warding
Mend Body and Soul

11-11-8
Discord
Putrid Bile
SoLS
Life
Spirit Light
Soothing Memories
Weapon of Warding
Protective Was Kaolai

12-9-9
Discord
Rotting Flesh
Putrid Bile
Animate Shambling
Animate Bone Fiends
Death Nova
Aegis
Prot Spirit

With option of putting hex removal on the minion bomber. Looks solid?
(edited)

Any comment?