Curse

Chthon · Oct 22, 2008, 04:25 AM // 04:25

My heroes have been living life mostly with whatever random high-req golds I've picked up that are too nice a skin to merc, but too bad mod-wise for my characters. For the casters, that's mostly meant staves.

However, recently I've been giving some thought to tossing most of my casters' staves/wands and outfitting them with spears.

What's the consensus on caster spears for heroes? More specifically: Does it cause the AI to behave stupider than normal in some way? Do they auto-attack often enough to take advantage of EBSofHonor/orders/barbs/MoP? Do they need a focus to avoid running out of energy, or can they use a shield? Any other issues to be aware of?

Frozen Bacon · Oct 22, 2008, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Well, because a spear's attack range is shorter than a wand/staff's range, you will be putting your caster hero in more danger.

Also, if you bring along a hero carrying splinter weapon, he/she will waste it on the caster unless you micromanage.

Heroes in general are stupid enough already. Let's not confuse them anymore.

Zamochit · Oct 22, 2008, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Heroes cant weapon swap - so giving spears to most casters is gimping them tbh

They are generally better off with 40/40 sets

Luminarus · Oct 22, 2008, 07:38 AM // 07:38

It depends, personally coz I find heroes cant manage energy, running a 40/40 doesnt make much difference. I also find that weapons on heroes dont make much difference at anyrate.

Imo, its not worth spending the money on it. If you have the spears give em, if not dw bout it. Since they already have golds with crappy mods, then its not much difference. Also i didnt think spears had less range then wands, thought it was the same: shortbow range, but i could be wrong. At any rate 1/4 an aggro circle isnt going to put them in that much danger

zwei2stein · Oct 22, 2008, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Spears can differentiate party positioning (3 hero casters with spears will form "separate group" in front of henchmen with caster weapons). Which is nice whenever you face AOE.

They can also use upgrades not aviable to casters (condition lenghteners)

They also have better generic upgrades (not attribute linked) which makes then more suited for build switching.

Rothan Celt · Oct 22, 2008, 10:34 AM // 10:34

40/40 sets for heros imo depends on there max health. Random greens work fine but spears would not be good as they are a waste of weapon spells and spears have a shorter range than wands/staffs so no its not a gr8 idea.

The Meth · Oct 22, 2008, 01:09 PM // 13:09

If you have splinter weapon, giving caster heroes spears will make you cry.

If you don't have splinter weapon, get splinter weapon.

Perfected Shadow · Oct 22, 2008, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Spears can differentiate party positioning (3 hero casters with spears will form "separate group" in front of henchmen with caster weapons). Which is nice whenever you face AOE.

Aren't you better off flagging the heroes apart?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

However, recently I've been giving some thought to tossing most of my casters' staves/wands and outfitting them with spears.

Caster spears can go on monks (the only ones most likely set to avoid combat). I usually put +60 HP staves on the rest. I really don't want to have squishies moving farther out front than they have to.

BrettM · Oct 22, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

Caster spears can go on monks (the only ones most likely set to avoid combat). I usually put +60 HP staves on the rest. I really don't want to have squishies moving farther out front than they have to.

I do about the same. Heal or prot monks on avoid get spears and 20/20 offhands. Most other heroes get +30hp staves with +5e heads and either "Aptitude Not Attitude" or "Hale and Hearty" inscription, depending on the profession. I do use a 40/40 set on MM necro heroes. If nothing else, when a hero can't cast -- low energy, skills recharging, etc. -- he might as well at least do what damage he can, which will usually be more with a spellcasting weapon than a spear.

MercenaryKnight · Oct 22, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

The only reason, imo for casters to have spears is if you have a necro and intend to bring mark of pain. Because then you have an incentive to gain an extra 40+ damage by each caster who chucks a spear on a target.

Other than that, I believe you should just stick with caster weapons.

Chthon · Oct 23, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frozen Bacon

Also, if you bring along a hero carrying splinter weapon, he/she will waste it on the caster unless you micromanage.

I'm not sure I follow. Splinter isn't going to any less damage on a caster unless the caster delays so much that it wears off with hits unused or the splinter carrier is dumb enough to recast it on the caster while the old copy still has hits left, is it?

Racthoh · Oct 23, 2008, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Depends if you're fighting anything that the AI is programmed to use on someone with a wand/staff out.

-Lotus- · Oct 23, 2008, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

The only reason, imo for casters to have spears is if you have a necro and intend to bring mark of pain. Because then you have an incentive to gain an extra 40+ damage by each caster who chucks a spear on a target.

Other than that, I believe you should just stick with caster weapons.

spears are caster weapons. stick a +5e and a defensive or fortitude mod on that spear and you can usually out-perform traditional "caster weapons"

BrettM · Oct 23, 2008, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'm not sure I follow. Splinter isn't going to any less damage on a caster unless the caster delays so much that it wears off with hits unused or the splinter carrier is dumb enough to recast it on the caster while the old copy still has hits left, is it?

A caster hero should be spending most or all of his time casting, not chucking spears, so I would expect most of the hits will wasted. If they aren't, it's probably a sign that the build needs some work. Also, the damage done to the target foe is going to be pathetic, since the caster doesn't meet the req of the weapon and has no spear attack skills. You can get the same type of problem with a hero monk carrying Strength of Honor or Judge's Insight. When I carry a Totem Axe, the hero will cast it on me, and I'm certainly not going to run into the front line to take advantage of the buff.

Since the AI seems to identify you by weapon based on these observations, the best use of a caster spear is for a non-combatant monk hero, to keep him from attracting caster hate in PvE. I haven't seen any actual data on whether this really works, but it sounds like a nice theory, so I go with it. But, being non-combatant, casting Splinter Weapon on him would be a guaranteed waste.

I like carrying a spear, myself. I can call a target without accidentally moving toward it, unlike an axe or sword. When solo farming, I can chuck a spear at a foe fleeing Sliver Armor to make him come back in range. I'm surprised that caster-modded axes and swords aren't extinct by now, given the advantages of a spear.

Chthon · Oct 24, 2008, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Depends if you're fighting anything that the AI is programmed to use on someone with a wand/staff out.

Blah, I don't have that much storage space...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

A caster hero should be spending most or all of his time casting, not chucking spears, so I would expect most of the hits will wasted.

Splinter lasts 20 sec. Are they not going to toss a spear 4 times in 20 sec?

Quote:

Also, the damage done to the target foe is going to be pathetic, since the caster doesn't meet the req of the weapon and has no spear attack skills.

Doesn't matter. The point of the spear is to trigger buffs and hexes that require physical damage.

Quote:

Since the AI seems to identify you by weapon based on these observations, the best use of a caster spear is for a non-combatant monk hero, to keep him from attracting caster hate in PvE. I haven't seen any actual data on whether this really works, but it sounds like a nice theory, so I go with it. But, being non-combatant, casting Splinter Weapon on him would be a guaranteed waste.

Yes, it would seem that caster spears on hero monks is unwise.

BlackSparrow · Oct 24, 2008, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Spears can be useful on caster heroes. It has a faster attack rate than staff but a shorter range, which is the biggest drawback.

+5e inscription, condition/elemental prefix, and hp or enchant postfix.

upier · Oct 24, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

If you have splinter weapon, giving caster heroes spears will make you cry.

Btw - if you are running heroes - ANYTHING will make you cry.
Just today - Oli decided to throw Splinter on pretty much everyone (but he especially LOVED Alesia) despite me running a spear and having Steffy in our party (and we didn't have Splinter on us).
So this shouldn't be an issue.
The heroes will mess it up either way.

AtomicMew · Oct 30, 2008, 10:33 PM // 22:33

I've been using staves on my heroes. The HSR on all spells is nice, although I don't really need it. I think I might switch to spear/focus. The additional energy is about 7 IIRC. But if it means AI spreads anti-melee to them that might be better than anything ;o

Super Igor · Oct 31, 2008, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Mmm, I have + 60hp staves on my heroes, dk why, just cant bother with cool looking shield/spear, besdies they cant weapon swap and 40/40 is kinda useless, so to me, them having more health is best option.

But honestly I think +60hp spear/shield set is the best, just for armor's sake.

Tyla · Oct 31, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

If you want a spear, use the common defensive set used on players (+5E / +30HP, +10AL vs. *Type* / +30HP). If you want casting benefits, either use a 40/40 set or a 40/20/20 staff. I highly recommend a spear for the defensive set, too.