Curse

Taranos · Nov 02, 2008, 11:20 AM // 11:20

OK, so i had a question about the sabway build, can the minion bomber be exchanged for an MM, and is this build a decent MM build for a hero:

[build;OABSUYDPIVqwRtkhHqqAABA]

Note: there's a difference in the real build, the space has got foul feast and infuse condition instead of res sig, the real build won't load says it's got too many pictures 52 out of a possible 50

upier · Nov 02, 2008, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Fot those that can't log into the game to check the template:
http://gw.gamependium.com/tools/builds/template/

Basically:
Way too much minions.
I'd keep Order, Fiends, BotM, SolS (IF you find your necro to be running short on energy).
9 (or 10) into a secondary line and bring some skills from that line - Protection is sweet (Aegis, PS, condition/hex removal, SoA if you invest 10) as is something like Earth for Wards.

There is no need to make a full-on MM.

Taranos · Nov 02, 2008, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Ok i'll give that a try

Xenomortis · Nov 02, 2008, 11:57 AM // 11:57

I've never run OoU on a hero, but I'm not sure a hero will be able to run it well or safely.
OoU is the best option for a human MM in my view and it doesn't require the endless minion targeting that a MB build needs.

In an OoU build, you only need Fiends and Vamp Horrors, anything else is a waste. Even then, V Horrors have a lower damage output and they're only good because they help cover the sac costs of OoU.
OoU is an energy intensive build, you'll be raising a lot of fiends and casting OoU and BotM whenever possible, that's a lot of energy - Soul Reaping on its own (powerful though it is) just can't keep up.

In short, get rid of Shambling Horror (it's a waste) and I'd be tempted to invest in some more energy management. If you're party is taking a lot of conditions I suppose Foul Feast and SoLS should cover it.

I'm not sure you'll have enough energy or time to use protection spells effectively, as you'll be wanting to cast OoU as much as possible and keeping your minion count up.

Super Igor · Nov 02, 2008, 12:44 PM // 12:44

I wouldnt run that over the minion bomber because theres no reason for that. You just lose stuff, you lose ds, prots, you lose a lot of damage and enrgy management for you necs, seriously, run a normal bomber.

Tyla · Nov 02, 2008, 12:56 PM // 12:56

@Upier: My link > yours

3 types of minions is unneccesary, you should have at most two minions, and on an OoU bar, they should be Vampiric and Fiends. Infuse Condition is a waste and will only sunder your damage output if say there's blind in the area; only use it when you're in areas with cripple, deep wound and daze. Considering you've got pretty powerful energy management (Soul Reaping should be enough alone, although I myself haven't touched an OoU properly so I can't speak for the energy management of those bars, and SoLS makes a nice self-heal aswell as energy management), I assume you could power a few prots i.e Prot Spirit, Aegis, and if you can't power them I suggest just taking Guardian and SoA.

I Jonas I · Nov 02, 2008, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Pretty good advice so far. My Minion bomber runs Dwayna's Sorrow and Cure hex, but those probably won't be as good on a more conventional MM. Might be worth a shot, anyway

Super Igor · Nov 02, 2008, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

Pretty good advice so far. My Minion bomber runs Dwayna's Sorrow and Cure hex, but those probably won't be as good on a more conventional MM. Might be worth a shot, anyway

Thats why bomber > conventional mm.

Taranos · Nov 02, 2008, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

I wouldnt run that over the minion bomber because theres no reason for that. You just lose stuff, you lose ds, prots, you lose a lot of damage and enrgy management for you necs, seriously, run a normal bomber.

Actually OoU deals lots of damage, V horrors attack at the rate of one attack every 3.17 seconds that's 1 or 2 hits each casting of OoU, let say 1 for this calculation, and fiends attack at the rate of 1.93 more or less, so 2-3 attacks per casting, let's say 2 attacks, you have 5 of each and cast OoU once, the extra damage is 17 (at 16 D magic) so that 15 attacks (10 from fiends and 5 from horrors) multiplied by 17 is 255, and that's only extra damage, there's the base damage as well.

In this calculation i'll make it 2 fiends do 3 attacks and 2 v horrors do 2 attacks, it's more likely than all doing minimum amount of attacks in a casting, that makes an additional 4 hits which brings the extra damage to 323, that plus base damage can easily kill a monster in 5 seconds, and if your teammates concentrate on other monsters, then you will be taking monsters doing very quickly indeed.

Quote:

3 types of minions is unneccesary, you should have at most two minions, and on an OoU bar, they should be Vampiric and Fiends. Infuse Condition is a waste and will only sunder your damage output if say there's blind in the area; only use it when you're in areas with cripple, deep wound and daze. Considering you've got pretty powerful energy management (Soul Reaping should be enough alone, although I myself haven't touched an OoU properly so I can't speak for the energy management of those bars, and SoLS makes a nice self-heal aswell as energy management), I assume you could power a few prots i.e Prot Spirit, Aegis, and if you can't power them I suggest just taking Guardian and SoA.

You have a VERY fair point there, if i remove shambling horror and IC and FF then i can replace them with prot spells, and something else to remove conditions, extinguish maybe, would that be better?

ac1inferno · Nov 02, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

[build prof=N/Mo death=12+1+3 sou=9+1 pro=9][Jagged Bones][Animate Shambling Horror][Animate Bone Fiend][Putrid Bile][Death Nova][Protective Spirit][Aegis][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

or

[build prof=N/Mo death=12+1+3 sou=9+1 hea=9][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Putrid Bile][Infuse Condition][Foul Feast][Dwayna's Sorrow][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

The Jagged Bomber turns a constant stream of dying minions into energy for all three Necros.

The minions double as defensive wall, drawing damage away from party members. Shambling + Fiends can tank and do more damage, while Bone Minions are better to bomb with Death Nova. Play with both and decide which summons you prefer.

Xenomortis · Nov 02, 2008, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Have fun casting Death Nova and Jagged Bones on as many minions as possible. It's great for a hero, but tedious and difficult for a human.
OoU brings a bit more interest to a MM.

Taranos · Nov 02, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

[build prof=N/Mo death=12+1+3 sou=9+1 pro=9][Jagged Bones][Animate Shambling Horror][Animate Bone Fiend][Putrid Bile][Death Nova][Protective Spirit][Aegis][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

or

[build prof=N/Mo death=12+1+3 sou=9+1 hea=9][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Putrid Bile][Infuse Condition][Foul Feast][Dwayna's Sorrow][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sab
The Jagged Bomber turns a constant stream of dying minions into energy for all three Necros.

The minions double as defensive wall, drawing damage away from party members. Shambling + Fiends can tank and do more damage, while Bone Minions are better to bomb with Death Nova. Play with both and decide which summons you prefer.

I read that, but minions will also die, as well as monsters, and that should be enough, because soul reaping has the limit of 3 energy "gains" per 15 seconds.

upier · Nov 02, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

@Upier: My link > yours

Pull down your pants and we'll settle this like men!

Thanks for the link though! It took me ages to actually find a converter

Kinda shows how much I hang around PvX ...

Daesu · Nov 05, 2008, 06:18 AM // 06:18

What the heroes lack is they tend not to cast splinter weapon on minions and pets. Cast splinter on fiends/evas, with barbs and MoP and watch them level everything before you.

Super Igor · Nov 05, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

What the heroes lack is they tend not to cast splinter weapon on minions and pets. Cast splinter on fiends/evas, with barbs and MoP and watch them level everything before you.

Lack?! Omg you arent srs, thats the whole point and is a good thing that they cast splinter on minions who trigger it because the are physicals blowing up stuff with barbs and mop, this means no matter what prim you are sabway can be ran without any changes to it.

Taranos · Nov 05, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

What the heroes lack is they tend not to cast splinter weapon on minions and pets. Cast splinter on fiends/evas, with barbs and MoP and watch them level everything before you.

Quote:

Lack?! Omg you arent srs, thats the whole point and is a good thing that they cast splinter on minions who trigger it because the are physicals blowing up stuff with barbs and mop, this means no matter what prim you are sabway can be ran without any changes to it.

Heroes always seem to work differently from char to char, on my assassin, for example, gwen is USELESS as an interrupt, while norgu is a genius at intrrupting (didn't let monk bosses cast a single spell), but it's the other way around on my war

MercenaryKnight · Nov 05, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

All hero ai is created equally. Get over the myth. A.net would in no way change ai for each hero.

I prefer plain old bone minions, you get 2 minions, one spell to use on quick recharge. Plus you get enough utility spots for protection spells like aegis and prot spirit.

I also ditch blood of the master because I usually have 2 copies of minions.

Daesu · Nov 06, 2008, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Lack?! Omg you arent srs, thats the whole point and is a good thing that they cast splinter on minions who trigger it

I said heroes dont cast splinter on minions, they only cast it on party members regardless of their professions.

TheOrangeFalcon · Nov 06, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

For heroes, definitely go with a Jagged minion bomber. They're just good at that type of thing.

For humans, use OoU. They can't target minions in a bomber build the same way a hero can. Also, Take only fiends and vamps as stated above. You really only need to make about 2 vamps, if at all. I usually just kinda forget to re-make them too =p Not like your fiends will get in 50 hits and kill you while its up.

Masao · Nov 08, 2008, 06:29 AM // 06:29

I never run an Animate besides Bone Minions.

Reasons, you ask?

1) 2 for 1 off a corpse.
2) Heroes will cast it at 9 minions resulting in instant death of the lowest HP minion for free energy and AoE.
3) Lower HP minions = more deaths to fuel SR and AoE.
4) Fast recharge/cast time.

Also, I find it appalling more people don't use Feast for the Dead.

1) Instant AoE from Feasting a Nova'd minion.
2) 1/4 cast time, medium recharge, very low energy cost that results in a net gain with SR.
3) Heals for less than Blood of the Master, which is a good thing because a bomber shouldn't be healing minions in the first place.
4) No health sacrifice from the caster like BotM.
5) BotM is just bad to run on a bomber, period.