Curse

-Lotus- · Oct 30, 2008, 07:02 PM // 19:02

you obviously do not even have a basic understanding of game mechanics. there is really nothing i can do to help you here.

Edit: on second thought. i have some time, maybe i can smash a little intelligence into your skull.

Quote:

Weapon of Warding:%50 block +4regen 4 sec recharge
okay that can be considered as a LIL bit of prot

its guardian with some healing. are you kidding?

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Vengeful Weapon: Now thats just faaaar away from protection
First of all I would be delighted if you can name how this skil can possibly prot you?
It cant, it only can heal you for 50 hp ONLY WHEN someone makes you lose health due to a DAMAGE
So despite this skill cant heal any significant ammount, it also depends on a condition
BTW maybe you arent aware but 50 damage to foes in pve, well lets just say that it is prety much nothing

typical PvE player... big chunk heals are not that useful. they require you to wait for an ally to take significant damage or waste energy. VW steals health on damage, very similar to RoF, which is undeniably the greatest prot in the game.
and you are calling this conditional? really? the condition is taking damage, you dont need the heal if nothing is hitting you.

Quote:

Resillent Weapon: This skill is also gives us a bit of protection BUT REALLY CONDITIONAL

you failed twice here. first you got the wrong skill, second you dont understand the skill you are talking about.
resillent weapon isnt that great. it provides long term healing and armor based on a condition so it comes at a low energy cost.

Weapon of Remedy (i suppose i could see how you got confused there, but if you knew the topic you would have looked at the right skill) is an elite version of VW. bigger lifesteal and condition removal. win.

Quote:

HB healer necro

HB is bad enough on monks. why would you do that to your necro?

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Mend Body And Soul:First of all we dont need cond removal due to foul feast and infuse cond on MM BUT ANYWAY
Unfortunely the cond removal of the skill depends on a very foolish conditional which is nearly NEVER met
We need a spirit in earshot
As the heroes tend to cast life before battle the spirit is more likely to be further away while we fight
So mend body&soul prolly never will remove condition

keep your heroes in earshot of thier spirits... its really not that hard. if you fail that much you could disable it and micro it yourself.
and at 5 energy how could you possible complain about this skill. take a look at orison and dismiss. this clearly out-classes both of them with a larger heal on an easy-to-meet condition.

Quote:

Spirit Light:You WILL sac your god damn %17 life

yea you will as I talked above

1. you probably won't sac anything (play better)
2. this is a HUGE heal for 5 energy
(it beats WoH without the conditional and is still pretty close with the extra heal. It also heals more than Gift or Heal other)

Quote:

BUT MY NEC:

has no form of protection whatsoever.

people play hybrid monks for a reason. when you can't dual spec monk attributes on a healer you go with resto as it provides both healing and protection, really not that complicated.

Moonlit Azure · Oct 30, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

I could care less about Necromancers, they can go cut themselves and cry in a corner.

And spirit light won't sacrifice if there's a spirit in the area.

I've been running a spirit spammer build, but the spirits mainly support for killing smaller enemies so I can keep a constant battery of ancestors rage and splinter weapon plus other support skills.

It works pretty well, but I need a change of pace.

Don't get off topic now.

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

Weapon of Warding:%50 block +4regen 4 sec recharge
okay that can be considered as a LIL bit of prot

Duh? It's an unstrippable Guardian. Oh, and it's 5 second recharge in terms of PvE.

Quote:

Resillent Weapon: This skill is also gives us a bit of protection BUT REALLY CONDITIONAL

But it's still prot. Your point is void.

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Now if we put: cure hex spotless mind(removes 2) on ss, convert hexes on MM, cure hex on my HB healer necro we will have 4 hex remove that 2 of them remove more than one hex and we prety much wont have any hex with the help of hench or the same build by another fellow friend

Hex removal is negligible at best in PvE, because you either need to heavily invest into it (Divert Hexes) or it does next to nothing for the most part. With conditions, you still have Foul Feast which is heavy condition control and takes away the need for condition removal. MBaS is useful for the secondary heal, too.

Oh, and can you stop randomly CAPITALISING some of YOUR WORDS?1!?!1 Because IT is very ANNOYING, and ENHANCING that is the FACT that none of THESE words ARE keywOrDs.

Destro Maniak · Oct 30, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Duh? It's an unstrippable Guardian. Oh, and it's 5 second recharge in terms of PvE.

But it's still prot. Your point is void.

Hex removal is negligible at best in PvE, because you either need to heavily invest into it (Divert Hexes) or it does next to nothing for the most part. With conditions, you still have Foul Feast which is heavy condition control and takes away the need for condition removal. MBaS is useful for the secondary heal, too.

Oh, and can you stop randomly CAPITALISING some of YOUR WORDS?1!?!1 Because IT is very ANNOYING, and ENHANCING that is the FACT that none of THESE words ARE keywOrDs.

oH yoU thinK thAt they ARE NoT???

BTW you miss the fact that how good ever you can prot you still need heal

ALSO that NRit doesnt prot
Maybe weapon of warding does a bit it generally ONLY has a signle skill that does a little of prot

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

oH yoU thinK thAt they ARE NoT???

BTW you miss the fact that how good ever you can prot you still need heal

ALSO that NRit doesnt prot
Maybe weapon of warding does a bit it generally ONLY has a signle skill that does a little of prot

Guardian is a pretty insane skill, and Weapon of Warding is essentially it's more powerful double. Even in PvE. The N/Rt prots, it's just not very efficient. Oh, and Xinraes' Weapon also counts as prot on an N/Rt, no matter how poorly you use it. Just because not all prots get through doesn't mean you need to devote an entire bar to it.

-Lotus- · Oct 30, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Destro, i edited my post at the top of the page. stop saying the N/Rt has no prot, you have clearly been proven wrong on every point.

upier · Oct 30, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

Ress Chant: 3 sec recharge with current health what more can one ask for?

A "monk" that doesn't rez?

joshuarodger · Oct 30, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Weapon of Warding is one of the best prot skills in the game. and it should go on every N/Rt bar, always. even if it gets used poorly by AI, there is zero downside to it. even N/Rt's have some form of prot and if they don't they should.

anyway, back to the OP. i don't think you should take any dedicated healer/prot hero in your party. maybe a paragon with some dmg reduction or some prot on your MM if you decide to go that way. i always take the henchie monks whenever i'm in HM. i believe you should get the most damage and damage buffing skills out of your heroes since you can customize that and most of the "damage dealing" henchmen have bad bars. IMO, the key to hard mode isn't staying alive longer, it's killing faster.

Jeydra · Oct 30, 2008, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

pure healing is bad because it's a waste. its a waste of energy and bar space. all healing skills push red bars up. taking more than two of them(to cover recharges) is just wasting space on your skillbar. also, trying to out-heal huge chunks of damage or tons of small packets is a huge waste of energy when you could be protting.

pure prot is terrible to, but not quite as bad.

A few things I'd ask you to explain.

Why is it that the following bars seem to fall exactly into the pure healing and pure prot categories you label as 'bad', and yet are quite common (or variants thereof), even among top teams and guilds?

HA HB Monk (and most HA teams that use Monks run 1x HB 1x RC):

Monk / Mesmer
Healer's Boon
Patient Spirit
Dwayna's Kiss
Channeling
Draw Conditions
Infuse Health
Spotless Mind
Heal Party

= no prot.

HA RC Monk

Monk / Mesmer
Restore Condition
Shield of Absorption
Guardian
Spirit Bond
Holy Veil
Aura of Stability
Reversal of Fortune
Channeling

= no heal.

GvG RC Monk

Monk / Elementalist
Restore Condition
Spirit Bond
Reversal of Fortune
Aura of Stability
Guardian
Holy Veil
Aegis
Glyph of Lesser Energy

= no heal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris1234565

hi there i am currently starting to do hm stuff and i want to make a good hero way. to start with i have a mm and sh ele which are quite good but i need a healer with that and this is why i am here

what do you think would be better to use

n/rt heal
or
hb monk

I'd say use the N/Rt. Heroes are bad at managing energy, so having Soul Reaping and a lot of energy is good. You can use the HB Monk as well, but if you do then make sure you have another Monk in your party doing heavy protting (preferably not a hero, since heroes are bad at prots, too).

Oh and by the way try to fit Protective Spirit onto one of your heroes, since a player-controlled Protective Spirit is a godsend in PvE.

Mr Emu · Oct 30, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

RC heals for a shit-ton and good monks outside TA run WoH hybrid

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

The reason HB is used in HA is because you've got alot of degeneration pressure that which bypasses you. That, and with even two prots, having two other teams in halls means alot might pass through your protection, for example; the altar. Oh, and there's also the N/A gimmick that plagues HA which bypasses all protection, so the only way round it is to heal, heal and heal.

DarkNecrid · Oct 30, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

A "monk" that doesn't rez?

just wanted to say I love you because this was the best smart ass response I've seen in a long time and it's true.

Super Igor · Oct 31, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Imo, a monk should only rez with vengeance.

But seriously the main problem with rez chant is that you are forcing your poor monky to go half range into the unlknown to rez something...that usually means dead monky.

joshuarodger · Oct 31, 2008, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

snip

HA and GvG teams need to keep up with the meta, but Tyla already got into that. for general PvE play, all of one or all of the other is not good. not only that, but you might want to check the skill descriptions on your "all prot" bars. just because it's in the prot prayers line doesn't mean there's no healing involved. RC is one of the best conditional heals in the game. RoF, depending on spec, can negate ~70 dmg then heal for ~70, essentially a 140 point heal, with a quick recharge and low cost, if timed correctly. spirit bond heals for a ton also, even though it doesn't negate damage.

this is why it's more acceptable to go all prot as opposed to all healing. you can't negate damage if you're not specced into prot at all. there are very few times when HB is worth taking. when most of the "damage" is from heavy degen and not a lot of big spike damage, it can be ok. still it's probably worth it to use DH or RC in those cases, which means you may as well bring SoA and RoF because it's not very often that you'll find an entire area where you can't get some sort of use out of them.

-Lotus- · Oct 31, 2008, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

blah

those builds suck. I don't care if people are using them in HA/GvG, check out the winning teams... hybrids

Super Igor · Oct 31, 2008, 11:03 AM // 11:03

hate rc in pve

Destro Maniak · Oct 31, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Guardian is a pretty insane skill, and Weapon of Warding is essentially it's more powerful double. Even in PvE. The N/Rt prots, it's just not very efficient. Oh, and Xinraes' Weapon also counts as prot on an N/Rt, no matter how poorly you use it. Just because not all prots get through doesn't mean you need to devote an entire bar to it.

JuST plEAse tell me

okok

Just please tell me how on earth that damn xinraes weapon protect its only %5 damage from 1 source once, and the heal effect will happen after you are hit

Which mean:
considering you have 500 hp, lets say you are hit, you will take 25 damage and be healed for 70 hp
it is 45 hp gain
Lets say you are hit by 180 damage (!) and lets say my necro healed you with heal other
You also gain 45 hp AGAIN!!!

But lets say someone hit you 25damage on xinrae you will gain 45 hp on heal other you wil gain 180 hp

to gain ANY DAMN benefit from xinrae you need at least 200 damage to be applied on you

now you will say: omg omg you donno about mechanics and stuff
I prey much know them
you are gonna say lets say you have 26/500 hp and someone apply you 1000 damage xinrae still will heal you for 25 hp and youll get 51 hp total and you wont die
Umm, sorry dude but you are more like to be hit by another 52 damage in less than a frame and the monitor wont even shot the exact time of being hit

I DONT SAY THAT %5 DAMAGE IS NOT USEFULL
Its usefull, more usefull than any other rit skill (after weapon of warding, it also is protection, although I still dont think that only weapon of wardig can be a reason)

But the point is healing 25 hp is not the best thing to happen

upier · Oct 31, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

JuST plEAse tell me

okok

Just please tell me how on earth that damn xinraes weapon protect its only %5 damage from 1 source once, and the heal effect will happen after you are hit

Which mean:
considering you have 500 hp, lets say you are hit, you will take 25 damage and be healed for 70 hp
it is 45 hp gain
Lets say you are hit by 180 damage (!) and lets say my necro healed you with heal other
You also gain 45 hp AGAIN!!!

But lets say someone hit you 25damage on xinrae you will gain 45 hp on heal other you wil gain 180 hp

to gain ANY DAMN benefit from xinrae you need at least 200 damage to be applied on you

now you will say: omg omg you donno about mechanics and stuff
I prey much know them
you are gonna say lets say you have 26/500 hp and someone apply you 1000 damage xinrae still will heal you for 25 hp and youll get 51 hp total and you wont die
Umm, sorry dude but you are more like to be hit by another 52 damage in less than a frame and the monitor wont even shot the exact time of being hit

I DONT SAY THAT %5 DAMAGE IS NOT USEFULL
Its usefull, more usefull than any other rit skill (after weapon of warding, it also is protection, although I still dont think that only weapon of wardig can be a reason)

But the point is healing 25 hp is not the best thing to happen

You said it best:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

omg omg you donno about mechanics and stuff

Tyla · Oct 31, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

Just please tell me how on earth that damn xinraes weapon protect its only %5 damage from 1 source once, and the heal effect will happen after you are hit

You just said it was prot in your own post.

By the way, with your logic, RoF isn't prot.

Quote:

Which mean:
considering you have 500 hp, lets say you are hit, you will take 25 damage and be healed for 70 hp
it is 45 hp gain
Lets say you are hit by 180 damage (!) and lets say my necro healed you with heal other
You also gain 45 hp AGAIN!!!

I actually have 580 health discounting weapon mods. Oh, and keep in mind Xinraes' is: cheaper (Yes, Necros have near infinite energy, but it all counts), doesn't rely on an enchantment and casts quicker. Oh, and it deals a bit of damage.

Quote:

But lets say someone hit you 25damage on xinrae you will gain 45 hp on heal other you wil gain 180 hp

to gain ANY DAMN benefit from xinrae you need at least 200 damage to be applied on you

And?

For healing to be effective, you need to be hurt. For prot to be effective, you need to use it before you get hurt, but it's generally stronger.

Quote:

now you will say: omg omg you donno about mechanics and stuff

Actually, that was Lotus.

Quote:

I prey much know them
you are gonna say lets say you have 26/500 hp and someone apply you 1000 damage xinrae still will heal you for 25 hp and youll get 51 hp total and you wont die
Umm, sorry dude but you are more like to be hit by another 52 damage in less than a frame and the monitor wont even shot the exact time of being hit

Xinraes' will leave the little timing spot open for a PSpirit and some spot heals, whereas Heal Other will do... f*** all in contribution to keeping that person alive.

Quote:

I DONT SAY THAT %5 DAMAGE IS NOT USEFULL
Its usefull, more usefull than any other rit skill (after weapon of warding, it also is protection, although I still dont think that only weapon of wardig can be a reason)

But the point is healing 25 hp is not the best thing to happen

The healing is just a bonus. You really think the usage of RoF is to heal as a priority? That's just a bonus, and at the same time it's what makes it a powerful skill alongside its spammability. And when I say spammability, I'm not saying "spam that shit!", I'm saying that it's ready for use 90% of the time.

-Lotus- · Oct 31, 2008, 04:20 PM // 16:20

small heals/prot while a target is being attacked is always a better option than waiting until they are taking heavy damage and slapping on a power heal.

like I said earlier:

Quote:

typical PvE player... big chunk heals are not that useful. they require you to wait for an ally to take significant damage or waste energy. VW steals health on damage, very similar to RoF, which is undeniably the greatest prot in the game.
and you are calling this conditional? really? the condition is taking damage, you dont need the heal if nothing is hitting you.