Curse

Saraneth · Oct 27, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

N/rt
HB is a terrible, terrible build. anything pure healing is bad.

If you have a designated prot on the team, then you're going to want the most healing availiable. HB's good for exactly that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Eye

I use necro/rit or hb monk with leech signet/power drain.

Since you seem to be concerned with nrg on the HB monk, it might be a good idea to go ahead and setup a n/mo as the HB healer. They maintain it effectively even at the 10 sec duration of 0 Divine. You'll also have more bar space without the interupts.

Super Igor · Oct 27, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraneth

If you have a designated prot on the team, then you're going to want the most healing availiable. HB's good for exactly that.

Unielding Aura (PvE) > HB

Quote:

Since you seem to be concerned with nrg on the HB monk, it might be a good idea to go ahead and setup a n/mo as the HB healer. They maintain it effectively even at the 10 sec duration of 0 Divine. You'll also have more bar space without the interupts.

Its kinda good but, why not give your nec WoH, much bettahr imo.

-Lotus- · Oct 28, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraneth

If you have a designated prot on the team, then you're going to want the most healing availiable. HB's good for exactly that.

no. you're wrong.

pure healing is bad because it's a waste. its a waste of energy and bar space. all healing skills push red bars up. taking more than two of them(to cover recharges) is just wasting space on your skillbar. also, trying to out-heal huge chunks of damage or tons of small packets is a huge waste of energy when you could be protting.

pure prot is terrible to, but not quite as bad.

hybrids are always the best option. you dont lose enough power from healing or prot to worry at all about dropping one or two attributes to dual-spec, the skills will still function as intended.
when the pressure is on you want both of your monks to cover all bases. not one monk trying to push bars up and one stopping them from going down, they will just be over-healing, wasting energy and missing targets.

Racthoh · Oct 28, 2008, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Any issues that anyone has about PvXwiki don't belong in this thread. Keep it on topic.

Saraneth · Oct 28, 2008, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

no. you're wrong.

pure healing is bad because it's a waste. its a waste of energy and bar space. all healing skills push red bars up. taking more than two of them(to cover recharges) is just wasting space on your skillbar. also, trying to out-heal huge chunks of damage or tons of small packets is a huge waste of energy when you could be protting.

I set n/mo's to run the protection and healing. If you're having nrg issues, then your dmg is the problem. Also, I'm not trying to "outheal hugechunks of dmg or tons of small packets;" the prot hero alrdy manages that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

pure prot is terrible to, but not quite as bad.

hybrids are always the best option. you dont lose enough power from healing or prot to worry at all about dropping one or two attributes to dual-spec, the skills will still function as intended.
when the pressure is on you want both of your monks to cover all bases. not one monk trying to push bars up and one stopping them from going down, they will just be over-healing, wasting energy and missing targets.

The n/mo itself is a hybrid, but in terms of builds, there's no need to run hybrid bars in every situation.. The nrg argument doesn't hold true in this case either due to SR.. Over-healing does occur from time to time; however, I think you'll find those extra digits more useful in HM and Elite Missions.

-Lotus- · Oct 28, 2008, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraneth

I set n/mo's to run the protection and healing. If you're having nrg issues, then your dmg is the problem. Also, I'm not trying to "outheal hugechunks of dmg or tons of small packets;" the prot hero alrdy manages that.
...
The n/mo itself is a hybrid, but in terms of builds, there's no need to run hybrid bars in every situation.. The nrg argument doesn't hold true in this case either due to SR.. Over-healing does occur from time to time; however, I think you'll find those extra digits more useful in HM and Elite Missions.

I didnt say you were running out of energy. i said you were wasting energy. you may not be running out now, but you will need to conserve more and in extended high-pressure situations you are going to be out of energy before the hybrid monk using his energy to the maximum effect.

a 2-hybrid backline is better than a dedicated prot/heal backline. this isn't some sort of debate, this has been the case since the game's release. do some research for yourself. if you dont feel like improving you can continue to use shitty builds, just dont suggest them to new players.

Xeng Suey · Oct 28, 2008, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Off-Topic: This is funny...so many people doing HM andhaving success on it, yet no1 is able to create a all human party. Ho yeah i forgot, many people are retarded in this game and cant play, right? but...but...omg! contradiction! Many people is having success in HM vanquishing. How is that possible anyway? Pl0x

On-Topic: Imo, N/Rt are better then usual hero monks. I agree that healer and prot henchman are better then heale and prot heroes. However, a WoH hybrid and a SoD heroe whiht P-dain and Leech Sig usually do the job w/o much work. But i repeat: N/Rt are far more eficient given the e-management power, imo.

-Lotus- · Oct 28, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeng Suey

Off-Topic: This is funny...so many people doing HM andhaving success on it, yet no1 is able to create a all human party. Ho yeah i forgot, many people are retarded in this game and cant play, right? but...but...omg! contradiction! Many people is having success in HM vanquishing. How is that possible anyway? Pl0x

The vast majority of people fail hard core. the good players don't really find each other. it's alot less effort to use heroes than to find the right amound of players will ing to play well and run the right builds (face it, no one loves playing something like orders, but the build adds so much to the team)

Super Igor · Oct 28, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeng Suey

Off-Topic: This is funny...so many people doing HM andhaving success on it, yet no1 is able to create a all human party. Ho yeah i forgot, many people are retarded in this game and cant play, right? but...but...omg! contradiction! Many people is having success in HM vanquishing. How is that possible anyway? Pl0x

Well, creating an all human...pug...is just not worth it, thats all. Much better and faster to simply get a bunch of heroes with good builds go, and pown evrything as opposed to spending hours to form a pug or letting your friends know in-advance. Furthest I ever go is a pair of friends but not more, besides, heroes are much easier to organize and are much better listeners. :P

Quote:

On-Topic: Imo, N/Rt are better then usual hero monks. I agree that healer and prot henchman are better then heale and prot heroes. However, a WoH hybrid and a SoD heroe whiht P-dain and Leech Sig usually do the job w/o much work. But i repeat: N/Rt are far more eficient given the e-management power, imo.

l2micro pl0x? But I agree, N/Rt-Mo are better cuz you can leave them on autopilot and they wont run out of energies.

Saraneth · Oct 28, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

I didnt say you were running out of energy. i said you were wasting energy. you may not be running out now, but you will need to conserve more and in extended high-pressure situations you are going to be out of energy before the hybrid monk using his energy to the maximum effect.

a 2-hybrid backline is better than a dedicated prot/heal backline. this isn't some sort of debate, this has been the case since the game's release. do some research for yourself. if you dont feel like improving you can continue to use shitty builds, just dont suggest them to new players.

I'm not running the bars; the heroes are. This means that the waste of nrg you keep refering to falls under the direction of the hero AI, and not my own. As necs, they have unlimited nrg (in respect to SR), so it's theirs to "waste."

I haven't mentioned anything negative in regard to hybrid backlines. If you're admant about straying from "pure" builds, then it's fine for you to hold with popular opinion. Nevertheless, it will be the OP, and not you who decides the build(s) he or she may run.

-Lotus- · Oct 29, 2008, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraneth

I haven't mentioned anything negative in regard to hybrid backlines. If you're admant about straying from "pure" builds, then it's fine for you to hold with popular opinion. Nevertheless, it will be the OP, and not you who decides the build(s) he or she may run.

forgive me, i feel the need to recommend the better option. like i said, keep using your "pure" builds if you have fun with them, fine by me. just stay out of my PUGs, and dont suggest the builds to new players who i may party with one day. bad advice doesn't help anyone.

Destro Maniak · Oct 29, 2008, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

N/rt

HB is a terrible, terrible build. anything pure healing is bad.

sorry but isnt N/Rt pute healing?

mend body soul->only heals 96 hp AND REMOVE NO CONDIION as the hero is so fool as it wil cast life on the run and not in battle
spirit->140 hp heal AND %17 SAC as there wont be any spirit as stated above
protective was bla bla->party heal of 60 hp, heal party with HB is 100 every sec
life->very bad as stated above
weapon of wardin->YAYAYAYAYA what a prot spell %50 block... Nothin else

but MY HB NECRO:
hb
Heal Other-225 hp heal every sec
Jameis Gaze/Patient Spirit- Jamei Hwne there is another dupe of the hb build if not patient sprit
-Dwaynas Sorrow
Heal Party
Healing Ribbon
Res Chant

seriously can someone defend N/Rit

upier · Oct 29, 2008, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

but MY HB NECRO:
hb
Heal Other-225 hp heal every sec
Jameis Gaze/Patient Spirit- Jamei Hwne there is another dupe of the hb build if not patient sprit
-Dwaynas Sorrow
Heal Party
Healing Ribbon
Res Chant

seriously can someone defend N/Rit

No PS, no Aegis, no hex and no condition removal?
Rez Chant?
You aren't doing the monking necro any favors.

The problem of HB is that you want to use as many healing spells to get the most out of the elite. The issue with healing skills is that, by choosing good skills - 3 will suffice.
So when running HB you need to decide - do you make the most out of your elite and and make a build that equals having half the slots empty OR do you bring healing options that are actually good enough without HB while at the same time bringing some sweet stuff that isn't affected by your elite (thus making your elite choice a bit pointless).
And for me then decision ended being easy - I just dumped HB.

But back to the question:
1. if running 3 heroes only.
Since the OP seems to be fond of casters - the two guys (ele and necro) can waste half their skillbar on nice protection/defense goodies. The necro will work superbly with 9-10 in protection with Aegis (you don't want to leave home without it), SoA (if you don't go with SoA - there is no need to raise Prot to 10, keep it at 9), hex/condition removal, PS.
A MM doesn't need more then a few slots - raise minions, keep them alive and you're set. Everything else can be a selection of skills from the above list.
The ele can do the same - meaning invest into Prot - OR you can stick to what the guy knows and bring some Earth wards or Water goodies (Freeze, Blurred).
Now for the third slot - I'd go with another offensive hero - who would also dump some points into improved defense.
And then take monky hench.
2. if running with another person and 6 heroes (or running around in 4-man areas).
In which case you can't rely on the monky heroes now can you.
So when I run full hero parties - I use a hybrid monk (while my guildy - who I normally party with - loves his Sabway resto necro - whom I also like having in my 8-man parties with me because of Life and PwK so it works out nicely).

Basically - if you just rely on a single (or two when doing 8 man parties) hero(es) to do all the damage negation - you are still likely to fail.
Heroes are dumb either way.
There is nothing stopping you from having additional party members with damage mitigation options on them. Everyone job is easier that way - and if the damage options on those bars are also good - you aren't losing out on anything. Except wasted skill-slots. Which no-one cries over.

Destro Maniak · Oct 29, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

please compare it with THE N/RIT
WHICH ALSO LACKS ANY kind of protection

So you say hb build cant heal/prot BUT N/RIT CAN?
N/rit also CANT

also we really dont have skills that protect us so much too
THE VERY ONLY SKILLS:
Protective Spirit
Spirit Bond
SoA
Shielding Hands
Bond
Life Sheat

any else?
but wait :O
what you can use on MM?
you can take Protective spirit on it+spirit bond+soa
which are the only reasonable protecting spells

and about hex removal:
I just put:
spotless mind+cure hex+remove hex on SS which is able to remove hexes really efficently

so healing boon still is better than N/rit imo

Super Igor · Oct 29, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

The same argument has been brought in the "add 7 heroes to PvE" thread.

The answer is the same: even PvE soloers interact with other people, sometimes helping or just by chatting. Single RPG's won't offer that. And we have quite a lot of liberty in just exiting the PvE environment and do some RA/AB whenever we want. And at least I do that a lot.

Thats the point kids, you still interact with other people, troll, chat, spam etc.

Tyla · Oct 29, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

please compare it with THE N/RIT
WHICH ALSO LACKS ANY kind of protection

So you say hb build cant heal/prot BUT N/RIT CAN?
N/rit also CANT

EVer heARD Of WEApon oF WARDING?!?!

Sup random capitalisation.

Oh, and Xinraes' Weapon, although heroes use it badly, is still prot.

furanshisuko · Oct 29, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

i would bring sabs build
but if you only got 2 necros then
1n/mo mm
1n/rt healer
1me/n hexer-ss

Super Igor · Oct 29, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Oh, and Xinraes' Weapon, although heroes use it badly.

No, they use it well enough for a hero, I mean, they spam their head off with it, and thats good.

-Lotus- · Oct 29, 2008, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

please compare it with THE N/RIT
WHICH ALSO LACKS ANY kind of protection

So you say hb build cant heal/prot BUT N/RIT CAN?
N/rit also CANT

WoW, VW, XW, and RW are all prot
mend body and soul is a condition removal.
the only one that just heals is spirit light...

Destro Maniak · Oct 30, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

WoW, VW, XW, and RW are all prot
mend body and soul is a condition removal.
the only one that just heals is spirit light...

now thats just RIDICULOUS!!

Weapon of Warding:%50 block +4regen 4 sec recharge
okay that can be considered as a LIL bit of prot
Vengeful Weapon: Now thats just faaaar away from protection
I just tried to find another spell that started with VW but unfortunely that was right, you ment vengeful weapon
First of all I would be delighted if you can name how this skil can possibly prot you?
It cant, it only can heal you for 50 hp ONLY WHEN someone makes you lose health due to a DAMAGE
So despite this skill cant heal any significant ammount, it also depends on a condition
BTW maybe you arent aware but 50 damage to foes in pve, well lets just say that it is prety much nothing
Resillent Weapon: This skill is also gives us a bit of protection BUT REALLY CONDITIONAL
Now if we put: cure hex spotless mind(removes 2) on ss, convert hexes on MM, cure hex on my HB healer necro we will have 4 hex remove that 2 of them remove more than one hex and we prety much wont have any hex with the help of hench or the same build by another fellow friend
WE NEVER WOULD HAVE any conditions AT ALL because I wanna remind you of [infuse condition]+[foul feast] on mm will simply remove every condition in blink of an eye

Mend Body And Soul:First of all we dont need cond removal due to foul feast and infuse cond on MM BUT ANYWAY
Unfortunely the cond removal of the skill depends on a very foolish conditional which is nearly NEVER met
We need a spirit in earshot
As the heroes tend to cast life before battle the spirit is more likely to be further away while we fight
So mend body&soul prolly never will remove condition

Spirit Light:You WILL sac your god damn %17 life

yea you will as I talked above

BUT MY NEC:
HB+Heal Other+Jameis gaze
3/8 sec cast 3 sec recharge spellS, 2 of them
They heal for 226 hp no condition no NOTHIN

Heal other 100 hp heal every 3 second its awesome isnt it

Dwaynas gaze:40hp heal everytime a minion dies

Ress Chant: 3 sec recharge with current health what more can one ask for?