Curse

Masao · Nov 06, 2008, 07:13 PM // 19:13

I use Discordway. Main is a monk. However, both Discord builds as posted on PvX are horrible.

Triple minion master and MM + 2 N/Rts are just bad builds.

I'll post my build later on when I get back to my place. I go Mo/A with Castigation Signet for e-management and Scourge Healing for spiking monks and rits. I have one dedicated bomber MM, a dedicated Resto, and the last is a split between a bomber and Curses spammer.

Rotting Flesh is a terribad skill. Weaken Armor and Enfeebling Blood are sexy.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 06, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Discord as long as you can provide the condition and hex. Such as running /assassin for an ap nuker works no matter what char you run.

It just can't be beaten by sabway in quickly spiking down enemies. Sabway was made to live out the while aoe spells like SS chip away at a whole group. Discord effectively spikes an enemy down to death within like 5 seconds. And is ready to spike down again every time just about.

When I run a 6man variant I give each char 1 curse necro, 1 minion bomber, 1 restoration healer.

I still need to tweak out my curse build and figure out something decent to give them. Usually slap enfeebling blood on one, weaken armor on the other. Then suffering and shadow of fear for an attempt at aoe hex.

I only run them as 1 of each because I get too lazy to change builds when it comes to splitting like Golem mission or other missions in nf where you effectively need to split into 2 4man teams.

Xenomortis · Nov 06, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Rotting flesh works extremely well for the large majority of PvE.

I disagree, especially for this build. It's 3 second casting time is three seconds you're not casting other things or your heroes can't cast discord or perform their secondary roles. If mass conditions are your goal, Enfeebling Blood and Weaken armor do much better and provide a more useful condition.
I give one of of heroes weaken armor and another enfeebling blood (they might be on the same one, I can't remember). I usually give one of them defile flesh as well, it prevents my target being saved by a powerful monk.
Suffering provides a nice AoE hex with a quick recharge.

Disease is pretty poor in PvE - it's degen which is generally crap and even though it can spread, it doesn't change the fact degen is crap.
And it backfires on you when fighting humans.

AtomicMew · Nov 06, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao

I use Discordway. Main is a monk. However, both Discord builds as posted on PvX are horrible.

Triple minion master and MM + 2 N/Rts are just bad builds.

I'll post my build later on when I get back to my place. I go Mo/A with Castigation Signet for e-management and Scourge Healing for spiking monks and rits. I have one dedicated bomber MM, a dedicated Resto, and the last is a split between a bomber and Curses spammer.

Rotting Flesh is a terribad skill. Weaken Armor and Enfeebling Blood are sexy.

You're wrong, rotting flesh is huge AoE with no downside in a large majority of PvE as well as auto-satisfying the condition requirement for the entire duration. Weaken armor does absolutely nothing in a discord team.

Your a monk using castigation signet and scourge healing and you're calling something terribad? lol!

AtomicMew · Nov 06, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I disagree, especially for this build. It's 3 second casting time is three seconds you're not casting other things or your heroes can't cast discord or perform their secondary roles. If mass conditions are your goal, Enfeebling Blood and Weaken armor do much better and provide a more useful condition.
I give one of of heroes weaken armor and another enfeebling blood (they might be on the same one, I can't remember). I usually give one of them defile flesh as well, it prevents my target being saved by a powerful monk.
Suffering provides a nice AoE hex with a quick recharge.

Disease is pretty poor in PvE - it's degen which is generally crap and even though it can spread, it doesn't change the fact degen is crap.
And it backfires on you when fighting humans.

So you shouldn't take minions either because they're 3 second cast time? Bad argument is bad. I take enfeebling blood too, but weaken armor is a condition that does absolutely nothing for discordway.

And so what if it is degen? Do the math... it's easily 500+ in large mobs.

Masao · Nov 06, 2008, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Merc makes a few good points but I'll point out a few things he didn't say yet, or that I don't agree 100% with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Discord as long as you can provide the condition and hex. Such as running /assassin for an ap nuker works no matter what char you run.

Don't forget to run e-management. As a monk the only effective e-management you can use is Castigation Signet. Most other classes have some form of e-management that's mainstream so it shouldn't be a problem for anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

It just can't be beaten by sabway in quickly spiking down enemies. Sabway was made to live out the while aoe spells like SS chip away at a whole group. Discord effectively spikes an enemy down to death within like 5 seconds. And is ready to spike down again every time just about.

Sabway is more about the Jagged bomber finishing off groups, the SS is just dessert.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

When I run a 6man variant I give each char 1 curse necro, 1 minion bomber, 1 restoration healer.

Same. Unless you mean 6 heroes. In that case I use a Jagged bomber, a Discord bomber, a Discord Resto healer, a Discord Resto protter or Prot Prayers protter, a Discord Curse spammer, and a Discord Channeling spammer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I still need to tweak out my curse build and figure out something decent to give them. Usually slap enfeebling blood on one, weaken armor on the other. Then suffering and shadow of fear for an attempt at aoe hex.

Just run one with both. Add on Mark of Pain or Barbs. MoP isn't quite as good in Discord as it is in Sabway because it won't be on a mob long enough. Still, usually I have 20-30 minions out (depending on if I'm running solo Discord with henches or dual Discord with another person and their heroes), so I can usually get in some nice AoE out of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I only run them as 1 of each because I get too lazy to change builds when it comes to splitting like Golem mission or other missions in nf where you effectively need to split into 2 4man teams.

No need to split in G.O.L.E.M. Just clear the area after the bridge, flag all your H/H to the choke point and then activate the quest. 8v4 is easier to win than 4v2+4v2.

Xenomortis · Nov 06, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You're wrong, rotting flesh is huge AoE with no downside in a large majority of PvE as well as auto-satisfying the condition requirement for the entire duration. Weaken armor does absolutely nothing in a discord team.

You're calling 8DPS "huge"?
And I have 4 henchies who disagree about weaken armour being useless.

Masao · Nov 06, 2008, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You're wrong, rotting flesh is huge AoE with no downside in a large majority of PvE as well as auto-satisfying the condition requirement for the entire duration. Weaken armor does absolutely nothing in a discord team.

Your a monk using castigation signet and scourge healing and you're calling something terribad? lol!

FYI, AP + EVAS + FH! + YMLaD! = first four skills in a player's Discord bar.

Players who think Rotting Flesh is good (heaven forbid they think its needed too!?) are ridiculously bad players.

If you're Discording then odds are you're so busy spamming your first 4 skills you won't even get a chance to use your last 4, and running back-up heals or Aegis or some janky bullshit like that is a waste.

Castigation keeps my energy in above 30-40 at all times and Scourge Healing will help you spike a healer instantly with three Discord heroes. Scourge is also a cover hex for AP in all areas with hex removal.

Oh yeah, also, we're talking about Discord builds and you're calling me a bad player for using skills that support Discord spikes when half my bar isn't dedicated to healing in the first place?

Lastly, Weaken Armor does nothing? Minions and Aidan say hi.

upier · Nov 06, 2008, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

So you shouldn't take minions either because they're 3 second cast time? Bad argument is bad. I take enfeebling blood too, but weaken armor is a condition that does absolutely nothing for discordway.

And so what if it is degen? Do the math... it's easily 500+ in large mobs.

Yeah - bad argument is bad.
But bad skill is also bad.

RF is a 3 sec spammable skill.
Your guys are already not spamming Discord as much as they could be because you are already running those 3 sec minions. No need to make them cast it even less.

And if your disease does 500+ damage - you seriously need to learn how to kill faster.

Xenomortis · Nov 06, 2008, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Minions are typically raised after the carnage is over, ready for the next fight.
They also have the useful ability to draw most of the damage away from us and manage to trigger Mark of Pain repeatedly which I'm casting all over the place whenever I can.
Rotting Flesh has one useful function and it's a function better filled by other skills.

Daisuko · Nov 06, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Meh, I don't like either. I hero/henched legendary vanquisher and legendary guardian using...
R/Mo (me)
Rt/Me (Xandra)
Mo/P (Dunkoro)
N/Me (Olias)
and then henchmen. I don't feel either way are really that great, but if I looked at both builds I'd definetly say that discordway is better. I may run Discordway on my necro, but he himself would just use Necrosis instead.

Xenomortis · Nov 06, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daisuko

Meh, I don't like either. I hero/henched legendary vanquisher and legendary guardian using...
R/Mo (me)
Rt/Me (Xandra)
Mo/P (Dunkoro)
N/Me (Olias)
and then henchmen. I don't feel either way are really that great, but if I looked at both builds I'd definetly say that discordway is better. I may run Discordway on my necro, but he himself would just use Necrosis instead.

I wouldn't recommend even bring Necrosis.
My elite is Assassin's Promise along with You Move Like a Dwarf, Finish Him and Ebon Assassin Support.

Masao · Nov 06, 2008, 08:04 PM // 20:04

One thing I forgot to mention in my previous posts.

Blood of the Master is a horribly crappy skill to run in either Sabway or Discordway.

WTB Feast for the Dead.

1) It fuels energy through SR for your other heroes and provides a net gain in energy for the caster.
2) It pops another Jagged.
3) Instant AoE if the minion was Nova'd.
4) Minions healed for slightly less than BotM. You aren't using it for healing anyway, and God forbid you actually want to heal your minions, which is counter-intuitive for a bomber to be doing.
5) No health sacrifice like BotM.
6) Low energy cost, fairly good recast time.

furpigs · Nov 06, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

I've used Sabs for a long time. I switched to Discord within the last couple of months. Discord puts out more spike damage, but Sabway seems to keep the minions around all the time a little better. Discord for me... until they nerf it.
I play a Necro for my main with SS and some spreadable hexes and conditions with some PVE skills too. Works pretty much everywhere.

AtomicMew · Nov 07, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao

FYI, AP + EVAS + FH! + YMLaD! = first four skills in a player's Discord bar.

Except it's not, because I run a paragon who can't use AP etc as well and I'd much much rather run an imbagon.

Quote:

Players who think Rotting Flesh is good (heaven forbid they think its needed too!?) are ridiculously bad players.

The only "ridculously bad player" here is... I mean: scourge healing and castigation signet....

And lol@ using cracked armor to do more damage in discordway. ~90% of your damage is armor ignoring, buddy. Heck, even sabway doesn't use cracked armor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

RF is a 3 sec spammable skill.
Your guys are already not spamming Discord as much as they could be because you are already running those 3 sec minions. No need to make them cast it even less.

Rotting flesh potentially saves time since it does away with needing to recast a condition. It has the hugest effective AoE and lasts, like, forever. 3 seconds isn't that big a deal, honestly.

Quote:

And if your disease does 500+ damage - you seriously need to learn how to kill faster.

Math: lets say you're fighting a mob of 6 and you kill on average every 6 seconds (INCREDIBLY generous in more difficult areas). That's 112 second-monsters of disease. At 4 pips lasting a maximum of 26 seconds (IIRC), that's 896. Realistically, it takes time to spread due to spacing. Say 3 seconds or so. 112-3*6 gives 752. Whatever. It doesn't matter. It's still triple digit damage, easily.

Masao · Nov 07, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Except it's not, because I run a paragon who can't use AP etc as well and I'd much much rather run an imbagon.

P/A.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

The only "ridculously bad player" here is... I mean: scourge healing and castigation signet....

There are no other skills that need to be run by a Mo/A in Discordway.

If you're too stupid to understand this I don't know what to say to you.

Castigation Signet = the sole form of e-management that monks have to allow them to keep spamming the four skills that are standard in Discordway. I can spam all 4 skills on every mob with Castigation Signet.

Scourge Healing takes care of all mobs with multiple healers in them. Nothing could be more valuable than a skill which will near instantly spike a healer to death if you're only running 3 Discord heroes and they continue to top up their HP.

A Discordway monk is NOT a monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

And lol@ using cracked armor to do more damage in discordway. ~90% of your damage is armor ignoring, buddy. Heck, even sabway doesn't use cracked armor.

We're talking about Discordway, not Sabway. Weakness increases minion damage. I constantly have over 15 minions out blocking and frontlining. Cracked Armor = more damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Rotting flesh potentially saves time since it does away with needing to recast a condition. It has the hugest effective AoE and lasts, like, forever. 3 seconds isn't that big a deal, honestly.

First off there is no need for Rotting Flesh because of YMLaD! and FH!, and second Rotting Flesh damage output is too slow.

Third, it's common knowledge that Heroes will and do spam skills with low recast times, and will spam this skill over Discord.

Learn the mechanics of the game please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Math: lets say you're fighting a mob of 6 and you kill on average every 6 seconds (INCREDIBLY generous in more difficult areas). That's 112 second-monsters of disease. At 4 pips lasting a maximum of 26 seconds (IIRC), that's 896. Realistically, it takes time to spread due to spacing. Say 3 seconds or so. 112-3*6 gives 752. Whatever. It doesn't matter. It's still triple digit damage, easily.

I kill mobs under 4 seconds apiece. Quite often I can kill within 2 seconds if energy is topped up with Castigation Signet, which it usually is. If you aren't killing that fast then you're clearly not using a good build.

AtomicMew · Nov 07, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao

P/A.

Energy + imbagon is better.

Quote:

There are no other skills that need to be run by a Mo/A in Discordway.

How about skills that aren't shit.

Quote:

If you're too stupid to understand this I don't know what to say to you.

Why play a class whose strengths bring nothing to the table? Or do you admit your build is subpar? (You should)

Quote:

Castigation Signet = the sole form of e-management that monks have to allow them to keep spamming the four skills that are standard in Discordway. I can spam all 4 skills on every mob with Castigation Signet.

No it's NOT the sole form of e-management lol.

Quote:

Scourge Healing takes care of all mobs with multiple healers in them. Nothing could be more valuable than a skill which will near instantly spike a healer to death if you're only running 3 Discord heroes and they continue to top up their HP.

I don't think you understand how scourge healing works. There is no "spike" involved.

Quote:

A Discordway monk is NOT a monk.

You're right, it's subpar.

Quote:

We're talking about Discordway, not Sabway. Weakness increases minion damage. I constantly have over 15 minions out blocking and frontlining. Cracked Armor = more damage.

Wanding = more damage. You're getting like ~10 more single target damage from minions with cracked armor. If you really need more damage from your minions, take barbs.

Quote:

Third, it's common knowledge that Heroes will and do spam skills with low recast times, and will spam this skill over Discord.

Learn the mechanics of the game please.

Rofl you are such a riot. Heroes do not spam conditions on monsters with the condition already on them. Learn the mechanics of the game please.

Quote:

I kill mobs under 4 seconds apiece. Quite often I can kill within 2 seconds if energy is topped up with Castigation Signet, which it usually is. If you aren't killing that fast then you're clearly not using a good build.

LOL... that's so pathetic... stop making up stuff. You can't even cast AP + EVAS in 2 seconds. Discord takes 1.75 seconds. And lets forget about the fact that heroes have 7 other skills.

Masao · Nov 07, 2008, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Energy + imbagon is better.

With minions holding near all aggro the +100 armor won't matter much. Most of the damage you take during a Discord VQ is from hexes or conditions, the rest is easily taken care of by an N/Rt + one hench monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

How about skills that aren't shit.

Name some that are better for e-management and keeping healers down? Oh, you can't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Why play a class whose strengths bring nothing to the table? Or do you admit your build is subpar? (You should)

How is my build subpar for H/H VQing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

No it's NOT the sole form of e-management lol.

Name another consistent spammable form of nearly unconditional e-management from the Monk class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I don't think you understand how scourge healing works. There is no "spike" involved.

It allows a Discord spike to go through by making all heals used by the target from being even of minor effect. Two heal/prot mobs? Switch targets after Scourging the one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You're right, it's subpar.

Again, constant spam of PvE skills can't possibly be subpar when I'm able to VQ areas without a single death, and in 75% of the time Sabway users do it.

Oh yeah, in case you forgot I'm H/Hing all of this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Wanding = more damage. You're getting like ~10 more single target damage from minions with cracked armor. If you really need more damage from your minions, take barbs.

Alright... 10 damage... 20 to 30 minions. Do the math please.

And I already take Barbs/MoP as stated before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Rofl you are such a riot. Heroes do not spam conditions on monsters with the condition already on them. Learn the mechanics of the game please.

You're assuming mobs always stick in tight little groups so that every one is hit. Newsflash, that is rarely the case.

Also, condition removal from range = an extra wasted cast of Rotting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

LOL... that's so pathetic... stop making up stuff. You can't even cast AP + EVAS in 2 seconds. Discord takes 1.75 seconds. And lets forget about the fact that heroes have 7 other skills.

It's sort of clear you don't know how the cookie cutter AP build works.

EVAS doesn't get cast on every mob, and isn't necessary for the spike. AP + YMLaD + 3x Discord + FH! = instant death, at least with R10 Norn.

Also, 45 minute Dalada VQ just a few days ago with H/H.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 07, 2008, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Assassin's Promise is the energy management. I run a paragon with 2 pips of energy and whenever I don't need to run save yourselves. I run an ap nuker build. Assassin's promise, ymlad, vanguard sin, pain inverter. As long as you don't try to spam every single skill on recharge you'll never run out of energy.

It only gets easier with a caster class that has 4 pips of regen.

Also, I do run barbs and I pretty much make copies of each build for me and my partner. I know that it isn't required to split, but a lot of the time we have to do pve areas alone with hero/hench. So instead of making a separate build dedicated specifically to running the 3 hero variant, I make it so both of our team builds can be put together and synergize. Or go into a low hm mission with only 4-6 player cap without ever having to change builds.

1 minion bomber each, 1 curse each (to help provide requirements to an aoe for quickly changing targets), and 1 restore healer each. Both minion bombers have aegis, protective spirit and shield of absorption. Pure healers, then the curses with enfeebling blood, shadow of fear, suffering and weaken armor. Also my partner's curse has some healing spec for dwayna's sorrow for minions.

You don't need dedicated protection character. When you have 2 copies of prot spirit, aegis and shield of absorption. As well as dual minion bombers.

AtomicMew · Nov 07, 2008, 02:35 AM // 02:35

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