Curse

daze · Nov 10, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

This'll be funny.

Infuse Condition without Foul Feast is a waste. Even then, the only condition worth removing in PvE half the time is Daze, or in a physically structured team, Weakness and Blind.

Reversal of Fortune won't do much good on heroes.

A sixth Discord > Jagged Bones. You should be generating enough minions anyway.

Vial Miasma is a crap skill in PvE - armour-based damage, degeneration which is negligible... Another copy of Putrid Bile would be more effective, as it is AoE and armour-ignoring.

Blood Ritual? Can't you manage your own energy?

Dark Bond? Do something for your party, bring more prot instead.

You need more Weapon of Shadow and/or Weapon of Warding. Both are incredibly strong skills and not worth missing when it comes to Ritualist bars.

Recouperation isn't really worth it at all.

With all of those minions running around, Rejuvenation will die in like 5 seconds.

SoA > Shielding Hands, moreso in PvE.

If you want a condition removal, Foul Feast > Spotless Soul.

Also, I usually use a copy of Veratas' Gaze on my Necromancers and such for extra, easier minion support with Malign Intervention on some people.

Thanks for the advice, ill give a few things a try.
I guess ill start making [[foul feast] permanently attached to [[infuse condition]

Ill swap out [[reversal of fortune] for [[shield of absorption]

I dont need a 6th [[discord] and i always liked [[jagged bones], but maybe ill just give him [[discord] and then give my monk [[divert hexes]. If so ill probably revamp the whole prot build.

Ill kick [[vile miasma] for another [[putrid bile]

I do use [[blood ritual] sometimes for the occasion where my [[assassins promise] misses, or i have to change target priority while ap is on a different enemy. Usually i just keep it disabled, but i plan on keeping it just as a reserve.

I like [[dark bond] and ill probably keep it on the bar just because he has the points spec to blood magic for [[blood ritual]

I did notice [[rejuvenation] dying pretty fast, ill just swap it out for [[weapon of warding] although [[rejuvenation] was throwing some powerful heals while alive

I like having multiple spirits on the field and other than [[life] just to keep [[spirit light] and [[mend body and soul] working at better capacity, [[recuperation] seemed like the best choice.

I though i had [[malign intervention] in there somewhere, i do like that skill ill have to double check. but i could have sworn that i already use it.

Ill play with [[veratas gaze] and and see what i can turn out.. but i never did care for the verata skills just because they seemed buggy.

And i honestly dont see anything wrong with [[dwaynas sorrow] First of all, its AoE which means its hard for a hero to screw it up. Second of all the ratio of minions to players is 5:2 so the odds are better than it is casted on a minion. And lastly, its cheap and recharges fast so it doesnt hurt to not bring it.

upier · Nov 10, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

With all of those minions running around, Rejuvenation will die in like 5 seconds.

Btw - Reju works on party members only.
And even then - only on guys that aren't at max HP.

It will still die in sec though.
Crap is crap.

Super Igor · Nov 10, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Ok first off, blood ritual is for me. I keep it disabled, and on the occasion that i may be starting to get low on energy, i cast it on myself. Hardly makes the whole team build bad.

So what prof are you playing? If you are a dervish like you status says you have no need in additional energy management unless youve failed somewere somehow, derv will gain good energy from enchantments ending on it which is more than enough to cover the cost of attack skills, if you have problems with energy either check what skills youve used or how the attribute points are spread, the problem should be there. And what do you mean it doesnt make it bad? One bad skill there, one useless skill choice here and voila, your build is terrible. BR was just a mere example.

Quote:

And yes, when i get rid of the hex/condition remover, i do add [[foul feast] to work with [[infuse condition]. But again, that hardly makes the whole build bad.

Get this: when you dont run foul feast there is no need in infuse condition and you can replace it with some more useful skill like ectra prot, hex removal, whatever although infuse+foul feast is a very effective combo in keeping your party free of conditions and again, bad stuff adds up and does make a build bad.

Quote:

I see you changed your thread around to be worded differently. I think you mean can't and not can. But regardless, wouldnt it be safe to say that since my build has NO trouble with any bosses, multiple bosses, multiple mobs, or multiple monks; that it would be more effective than yours? because when it comes down to it, isnt that the bottom line? Survival and rate of kill?

i havent said that it has trouble with bosses or neither I have mentioned it having trouble with multiple mobs as sabway is really good at coping with overaggro. What I meant is that it is all around pressure build that pretty much ends up killing the entire mob at once as opposed to quicky spiking down a target which may be handy when facing a a healing boss, but thats generally the andvantage that discordway has over sabway so no need to be specific.

But if you are going to compare builds I'd say that 6 hero d-way Ive suggested in this thread would beat yours any day.

Quote:

I just wonder why you were incapable of offering constructive criticism from the very beginning. In stead you open with flame throwing and insults. I find it funny that you ask for constructive criticism on your own threads but your first instinct is to call people bad/incompetent players in other threads. Hypocritical much?

Who said i was incapable? Im very capable, maybe thats why I allow myself to enjoy some flaming first!

But seriously I freak out when people pretend to be better than anyone for example flaming pvx boasting about being aweasomely creative and post stuff like you have, seriously, creativity for the sake of creativety is stupidity. Thats why I pretty much hate turbo, hard to forget when he said that a sabway from pvx performs worse than completely identical sabway on guru, identical, not even a slight difference, stupid.

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First off, im not flaming PvX wiki. I think it is a great site for new players who dont know better or dont care to put effort forth to create their own build to go to find a build that just "works". Im saying that there is nothing special for MOST of the PvX builds posted, and MOST of the builds can be improved upon.

PvX builds are fine, pvp section is perfect becaause pvp scrubs and observer trolls are very weary of meta, and thats how it should be otherwise the site will be flooded by cripshot touchers and die. PvE has too much theorycrafting to it but is still nice, those scrubs know whats efficient, I wouldnt say that those builds can be improved upon, no put it this way, you dont need to keep them 100% identical, you are free to add variants/tweak them for specific area but that would be a variant and not supposed to be on the main bar thats why they have a variants section.

Quote:

I was however making fun of the "OMG PvX builds are sooo LEET" people who think they have found the holy grail because they found a touch ranger. When i started playing, i was tweaking the PvX builds to suit my playstyle. And i still peek at Pvxwiki from time to time to get ideas and see what the hero builds look like. But its all still the same crap, every build has [resurrection signet] stapled to it and they are still just good generic builds. Hardly the cats pajamas.

Dont agree on rez sig, those scrubs hate rezzing in pve but see the bold bit in your quote, thats what you finally got right about pvx, generic. Everything is meant to be generic but you can add variants to it but as I said, variants stay variants and that doesnt make pvx bad hence its great to track meta and stay updated on the game.

Quote:

But none the less, thank you for the advice on the discord team build. I will look it over and the parts that are unbiased, i MAY take into consideration and try it out.

Go try it, really efficient, should work like a charm.

And tell me dude, what is so biased about my suggestions? Explain it to me in a factual manner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

I dont need a 6th [[discord] and i always liked [[jagged bones], but maybe ill just give him [[discord] and then give my monk [[divert hexes]. If so ill probably revamp the whole prot build.

Stop being stoopit and get rid of jagged, you have enough energy and minion bombing shouldnt be your primary concern. D-way =/= sabway, get it, only thing a full on bomber will do is energy which you have plenty already anything else is done by discord with bombing stuff.

Quote:

I do use [[blood ritual] sometimes for the occasion where my [[assassins promise] misses, or i have to change target priority while ap is on a different enemy. Usually i just keep it disabled, but i plan on keeping it just as a reserve.

Scrap it please it costs you too much, lots of better options.

Quote:

I like [[dark bond] and ill probably keep it on the bar just because he has the points spec to blood magic for [[blood ritual]

If you are such a br addict know that 3 blood magic points is enuff for it, and taking a horrible long cast long recharge anchant that does nothing to your party just becaause you have 3 points in blood magic is pretty bad.

Quote:

I did notice [[rejuvenation] dying pretty fast, ill just swap it out for [[weapon of warding] although [[rejuvenation] was throwing some powerful heals while alive

And replace second copy of death nova with life, ossum spirit.

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I though i had [[malign intervention] in there somewhere, i do like that skill ill have to double check. but i could have sworn that i already use it.
Ill play with [[veratas gaze] and and see what i can turn out.. but i never did care for the verata skills just because they seemed buggy.

It works but...dont bother, never found it effective way too buggy on heroes, also two skill slots to raise one minion, cmon dude there are better hexes, better options.

daze · Nov 10, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Both of these builds let me manage a discord team very well.
e storage 12+1+1... deadly arts 12 <<<
[deadly paradox @12][enduring [email protected]][mark of [email protected]][pain inverter][assassins [email protected]][you move like a dwarf][finish him][sadists [email protected]]
I use this for spaming hexes, it has good energy management and MOST of the time it needs no additional energy assistance. And most of all, its fun to use.

[deadly [email protected]][dancing [email protected]][entangling [email protected]][signet of toxic [email protected]][pain inverter][assassins [email protected]][you move like a dwarf][finish him]
This build causes a bit more pressure, and i like it as well. Both builds have an over 90 energy pool

The main reason i like these 2 builds is because i can spec deadly arts at 12 for the extra few seconds of time to kill and the extra energy return. [[deadly paradox] is fun to let me fast cast the sin skills but it sucks a lot of energy. so i use the occasional [[blood ritual]

I wouldnt expect you to understanding playing a build because its fun to play, but regardless you can hold the flames because it not a cookie cutter ele build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

And tell me dude, what is so biased about my suggestions? Explain it to me in a factual manner.

Ok the only example im going to give is [[dwaynas sorrow]. the reason you are so against it, is because you are regurgitating what has been said on guru for a long time now. Ignoring the fact that when the changed the AI for heroes, [[dwaynas sorrow] has become a lot more effective and really does a good job when you use lots of minions.\

Also, its hard to take any advice you give with any more than a grain of salt just because i am considering its source. Honestly your rude, pretentious, and flaming tendencies has put a bad taste in my mouth about anything you might have to say, regardless if what you say has any merit or not. But that's just human nature.

Super Igor · Nov 10, 2008, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

I dont need a 6th [[discord] and i always liked [[jagged bones], but maybe ill just give him [[discord] and then give my monk [[divert hexes]. If so ill probably revamp the whole prot build.

Stop being stoopit and get rid of jagged, you have enough energy and minion bombing shouldnt be your primary concern. D-way =/= sabway, get it, only thing a full on bomber will do is energy which you have plenty already anything else is done by discord with bombing stuff.

Quote:

I do use [[blood ritual] sometimes for the occasion where my [[assassins promise] misses, or i have to change target priority while ap is on a different enemy. Usually i just keep it disabled, but i plan on keeping it just as a reserve.

Scrap it please it costs you too much, lots of better options.

Quote:

I like [[dark bond] and ill probably keep it on the bar just because he has the points spec to blood magic for [[blood ritual]

If you are such a br addict know that 3 blood magic points is enuff for it, and taking a horrible long cast long recharge anchant that does nothing to your party just becaause you have 3 points in blood magic is pretty bad.

Quote:

I did notice [[rejuvenation] dying pretty fast, ill just swap it out for [[weapon of warding] although [[rejuvenation] was throwing some powerful heals while alive

And replace second copy of death nova with life, ossum spirit.

Quote:

I though i had [[malign intervention] in there somewhere, i do like that skill ill have to double check. but i could have sworn that i already use it.
Ill play with [[veratas gaze] and and see what i can turn out.. but i never did care for the verata skills just because they seemed buggy.

It works but...dont bother, never found it effective way too buggy on heroes, also two skill slots to raise one minion, cmon dude there are better hexes, better options.

Super Igor · Nov 10, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

[deadly [email protected]][dancing [email protected]][entangling [email protected]][signet of toxic [email protected]][pain inverter][assassins [email protected]][you move like a dwarf][finish him]
This build causes a bit more pressure, and i like it as well. Both builds have an over 90 energy pool

Cant believe that youve actually posted a decent build, this thing work tho I lolled at energy bit, I run it on sin, no energy problems thanks to AP and 4 pips of energy regen.

Although if you are running an ele consider trying something like this:
[assassin's [email protected]][glyph of sacrifice][meteor [email protected]][liquid [email protected]][glowing [email protected]][finish [email protected]][mark of [email protected]][fire [email protected]] add [pain inverter]/[mindbender] somewere
or
[assassin's [email protected]][rodgort's [email protected]][[email protected]][liquid [email protected]][glowing [email protected]][finish [email protected]][mark of [email protected]][fire [email protected]] add [mindbender]/[pain inverter] somewere
Two really fun bars, cuz spamming fire spells with no recharge is fun+conditions, hexes and energy management so solid you dont need br.

daze · Nov 10, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Stop being stoopit and get rid of jagged, you have enough energy and minion bombing shouldnt be your primary concern. D-way =/= sabway, get it, only thing a full on bomber will do is energy which you have plenty already anything else is done by discord with bombing stuff.

Scrap it please it costs you too much, lots of better options.

If you are such a br addict know that 3 blood magic points is enuff for it, and taking a horrible long cast long recharge anchant that does nothing to your party just becaause you have 3 points in blood magic is pretty bad.

And replace second copy of death nova with life, ossum spirit.

It works but...dont bother, never found it effective way too buggy on heroes, also two skill slots to raise one minion, cmon dude there are better hexes, better options.

Did you woops? double post.. ANd i do use [[life] check my build again and you will see.
But my son woke up from his nap so ill have to continue this discussion tonight at work.

Thanks Tyla for the advice.

and Igor, delete your double post

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Cant believe that youve actually posted a decent build,
[assassin's [email protected]][glyph of sacrifice][meteor [email protected]][liquid [email protected]][glowing [email protected]][finish [email protected]][mark of [email protected]][fire [email protected]] add [pain inverter]/[mindbender] somewere
or
[assassin's [email protected]][rodgort's [email protected]][[email protected]][liquid [email protected]][glowing [email protected]][finish [email protected]][mark of [email protected]][fire [email protected]] add [mindbender]/[pain inverter] somewere
Two really fun bars, cuz spamming fire spells with no recharge is fun+conditions, hexes and energy management so solid you dont need br.

I started using AP fire nuker builds then i decided to use something different because i wanted 12 spec deadly arts.

[fire attunement][glyph of sacrifice][meteor shower][liquid flame][pain inverter][assassins promise][you move like a dwarf][finish him] that is what i always used to use.

upier · Nov 11, 2008, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

builds

Did you even consider looking into [energy Blast]?
Because I'd seriously look away from spamming Daggers. You have insanely sweet stuff as an ele - and DP+Daggers is a huge waste in comparison.

Super Igor · Nov 11, 2008, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Agreed with upier, cuz, yeah the dagger spam build wont be bad...on a sin.

daze · Nov 11, 2008, 10:45 AM // 10:45

I do like [[energy [email protected]] but that wasnt my goal in that build.. The ONLY reason i put in [[dancing [email protected]] is because it is deadly arts (which lets me spec it at 12) and a lead attack (which opens up for [[entangling [email protected]] then [[signet of toxic [email protected]])

I like the poison condition and the KD with the followup spike of armor ignoring damage(like my own personal discord spike), but mostly because its different and not just a generic build. Bottom line is I wanted to spec [[assassins [email protected]] at 12 so i needed to build skills around it.

I know that [[dancing daggers] is kinda weak lead attack because it is earth damage and not armor ignoring, but i don't see any better ranged lead attacks in the deadly arts line.

[iron palm][entangling asp][signet of toxic shock] would be great if i wasnt squishy. the mid range effect of [dancing daggers] is close enough for me.

Super Igor · Nov 11, 2008, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Honestly I wouldnt bother with dancing daggers on anything but a sin in pve.

If you want to be original on an ele try something like:

[build prof=e/a box][earth [email protected]][assassin's [email protected]][shadow [email protected]][by ural's hammer!][you move like a dwarf!][[email protected]][crystal [email protected]][teinai's [email protected]][/build]
-Not the most effective of builds but at least you do more damage and have a better energy management, also quite original.

upier · Nov 11, 2008, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

I do like [[energy [email protected]] but that wasnt my goal in that build.. The ONLY reason i put in [[dancing [email protected]] is because it is deadly arts (which lets me spec it at 12) and a lead attack (which opens up for [[entangling [email protected]] then [[signet of toxic [email protected]])

I like the poison condition and the KD with the followup spike of armor ignoring damage(like my own personal discord spike), but mostly because its different and not just a generic build. Bottom line is I wanted to spec [[assassins [email protected]] at 12 so i needed to build skills around it.

I know that [[dancing daggers] is kinda weak lead attack because it is earth damage and not armor ignoring, but i don't see any better ranged lead attacks in the deadly arts line.

I was toying around with the same thing on my mesmer.
I found that if I want a second KD - EVAS is superb since it's full range.
(Except that my mesmer ran something like - [Dark Prison] (Or maybe it was [Death's Charge] to save some energy ...) [Sneak Attack] [entangling asp] [signet of shadows] [signet of toxic shock][Assassin's promise] [Finish him!] [You move like a Dwarf!]. It was just insanely fun - jumping all over the place - KDing things!

Plus the Discord guys have enough room and energy for that PS spam - which you'll need.

)

And my PRIMARY suggestion (not the madness above

) doesn't change anything in terms of running 12 in DA.
What I'd run is something like [Energy Blast] + [blinding Flash] even at low levels (or you could dump one level worth of points from ES into Air) and grab [signet of shadows].
And that still leaves you with one slot open that you can waste on anything you like.

daze · Nov 11, 2008, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I was toying around with the same thing on my mesmer.
I found that if I want a second KD - EVAS is superb since it's full range.
(Except that my mesmer ran something like - [Dark Prison] (Or maybe it was [Death's Charge] to save some energy ...) [Sneak Attack] [entangling asp] [signet of shadows] [signet of toxic shock][Assassin's promise] [Finish him!] [You move like a Dwarf!]. It was just insanely fun - jumping all over the place - KDing things!

Plus the Discord guys have enough room and energy for that PS spam - which you'll need.

)

And my PRIMARY suggestion (not the madness above

) doesn't change anything in terms of running 12 in DA.
What I'd run is something like [Energy Blast] + [blinding Flash] even at low levels (or you could dump one level worth of points from ES into Air) and grab [signet of shadows].
And that still leaves you with one slot open that you can waste on anything you like.

Very nice, that build made me smile. I may even ignore the fact that i will be a frontline squishy, just because that build looks so fun.
[Sneak Attack][entangling asp][signet of shadows][signet of toxic shock][Assassin's promise][Finish him!][You move like a Dwarf!]

ill get over it though because the first AP build i ever ran was:
[fire attunement][glyph of sacrifice][meteor shower][deaths charge][bed of coals][flame djinns haste][assassins promise][finish him]

AtomicMew · Nov 11, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Discord definitely does work on paragons.

I run [assassin's promise][you move like a dwarf][finish him][there's nothing to fear][anthem of flame][anthem of weariness][go for the eyes][signet of return]
@12Deadly, 14 leadership, 4 command
Having near permanent TNTF and a party heal every 10 seconds helps tremendously. Energy is fine.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 11, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Earth ele with churning earth, especially in hm, eruption and such could provide decent effects of knockdown and blind spreading. Combine that with glyph of lesser energy and assassin's promise and whatever else you want and you should be continually casting everything you could possibly need in damage and utility.

distilledwill · Nov 12, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

I run Discordway on my Ranger using this build:

[BHA][Distracting Shot][Sloth Hunter's Shot][Apply Poison][Epidemic]["Finish Him!"]["I am the Strongest!"][Sunspear Rebirth Signet]

as you can see I dont run a hex, but I do run a reliable condition (apply), Ive put slightly more in the way of hexes on the heroes to compensate. I take 1 Bone Minion creator rather than 2 Shambling dudes and Ive removed Dwayna's from the MM as I think its a waste of an investment.

Ive never had any problems with Discordway, its got me through almost all of my tyrian and elonian vanquishing. I do have the first skills of each of my heros hotkeyed to 1 2 and 3 on my numpad so that I can spike should I need to. Imagine sloths, 3 discords and "finish him!" all hitting at once, its nice.

However, for the most part I dont micro the skills and the enemies go down fast enough.

Chthon · Nov 12, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao

And just because a skill gets buffed doesn't mean it should be used on heroes for every class of character.

Indeed. As I've said before (to much flaming), monk and ritualist (and maybe dervish) are about the only classes for which there's not another option that's simply better than discordway. The only real virtue of discordway is that it's "good enough," and pretty darned foolproof because the heroes do all the work for you. Since being foolproof was the real draw of sabway in the first place, it's not terribly surprising that discordway is replacing it.

Daesu · Nov 12, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Indeed. As I've said before (to much flaming), monk and ritualist (and maybe dervish) are about the only classes for which there's not another option that's simply better than discordway.

I dont see why that should be the case, you dont need to be a certain profession to run discordway. My Dervish runs a triple necro build that is not sabway nor discordway and still does very well in HM.

The problem with sabway is that it is outdated and can be easily re-configured to a better build. Sabway was good 6 months ago, but its skill choices are sub-optimal to other skill choices now. Sabway is still "good enough" to be used though.

kai4321 · Nov 12, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

As many of you have posted the build used when using Discordway, does anyone want to share knowledge of what build they use for a warrior using discordway?

AtomicMew · Nov 12, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai4321

As many of you have posted the build used when using Discordway, does anyone want to share knowledge of what build they use for a warrior using discordway?

W/A assassin's promise spammer is, if not the best, then still the fastest option for any profession.

However, a good option for PvE as always a SY! spammer (aka God Mode Warrior). Check out the thread in the Warrior forum.