Curse

AtomicMew · Feb 12, 2009, 05:31 AM // 05:31

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AP doesn't help discord damage, this "must use AP with Discordway" reasoning is hyped so much that it is getting ridiculous! It is turning into the "I bring all hexes and conditions on my own character" build argument into a single point of utter failure! You have all been using generic builds so much, you have forgotten what the other builds are good for.

Again, AP is NOT used because it is just a hex. Seriously, it's been stated here about 5 times already. It's used because it lets you spam overpowered PvE skills, which lets you have insanely high DPS. There is no other elite that can compare. I'm sorry, but that's simply a fact. If you can't even admit this, then it's pretty obvious you are simply looking to argue, since it's quite hard not to understand this.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2009, 05:38 AM // 05:38

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Originally Posted by traversc

Again, AP is NOT used because it is just a hex. Seriously, it's been stated here about 5 times already. It's used because it lets you spam overpowered PvE skills, which lets you have insanely high DPS.

I have already stated if you like to use AP fine. But spamming overpowered PvE skills will not grant +100 armor to your party. Which one is better?

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There is no other elite that can compare. I'm sorry, but that's simply a fact. If you can't even admit this, then it's pretty obvious you are simply looking to argue, since it's quite hard not to understand this.

I have to disagree. For a DSlash/SY warrior build, adrenaline is more important than energy. AP is not the answer to every build. Even though AP+PvE skills is a strong combo, AP builds have their weaknesses too.

For example, if you are fighting a tough boss that takes more than your 3 PvE skills to kill, your AP is not going to help you much. I prefer a build that offers better protection. You can also have problems with AP in high hex removal areas.

And daze always agrees with me in the end, don't you daze?

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Originally Posted by traversc

Again, AP is NOT used because it is just a hex. Seriously, it's been stated here about 5 times already. It's used because it lets you spam overpowered PvE skills, which lets you have insanely high DPS.

I know that AP is useful, of course. But my point is, it is not always the most powerful option to go with a discordway team. For example, my WS scythe assassin can probably deal a higher overall damage with my discordway than the old [assassin's promise][you move like a dwarf][ebon vanguard assassin support][finish him] combo, can with it.

That is the point I am trying to make all along. Use your head, rather than throw up a generic build in everyone's face and say use this AP+Discordway, it is the best possible build for EVERY situation!

daze · Feb 12, 2009, 06:18 AM // 06:18

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Originally Posted by Daesu

But spamming overpowered PvE skills will not grant +100 armor to your party. Which one is better?

I had to read this bit over and over. And im sad to say that i still dont understand what this sentence means. Is [save yourselves] not a PvE skill? Or was that sarcasm?

And the whole agreeing with you part is a moot point. I think we are both ion the same page, but reading it in different languages or something.

Ok here is my point that [[assassins promise] is more than

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Originally Posted by Daesu

Just a hex

1: Yes, it is a hex to prime for [discord]
2: It is a means to recharge your other caller skills
3: It returns enough energy to allow you to spam your primers indefinitely.
4: It is potentially the fastest spammable hex in the game.

Ok, now for adrenalin builds. Sure, you are obviously correct in your claim that [[assassins promise] is not the best choice. So then just bring [[asuran scan]. But adrenalin builds make up at most 1/10 of all possible player builds. So it would be a safe assumption that OVERALL [[Assassins promise] is the best utility to bring for a discord team. Simply because it is NOT just a hex to prime discord, and that it has many other benefits.

What if i were to say that [assassins promise][you move like a dwarf][ebon vanguard assassin support][finish him] + DISCORDWAY >> [dragon slash][asuran scan] + DISCORDWAY simply because when i let my warrior friend join me on 6 hero vanquishes with discordway, the enemies die before he can even run up to them and hit them once.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2009, 06:26 AM // 06:26

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Originally Posted by daze

I had to read this bit over and over. And im sad to say that i still dont understand what this sentence means. Is [save yourselves] not a PvE skill? Or was that sarcasm?

Are you pretending not to understand or do you really use AP to recharge your SY?

Do you really think that when I referred to the deadly AP+3 PvE skills combo, I meant SY as an example?

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Ok here is my point that [[assassins promise] is more than

1: Yes, it is a hex to prime for [discord]

You really shouldn't use AP to prime discord. AP should be cast just before the target dies. Otherwise, you risk losing your AP and mess up your build.

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So it would be a safe assumption that OVERALL [[Assassins promise] is the best utility to bring for a discord team. Simply because it is NOT just a hex to prime discord, and that it has many other benefits.

Like I have said, I have nothing against AP builds since I use them on some of my characters too. But I can still use my version of discordway just as well enough even without AP.

AtomicMew · Feb 12, 2009, 06:31 AM // 06:31

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Originally Posted by Daesu

I know that AP is useful, of course. But my point is, it is not always the most powerful option to go with a discordway team. For example, my WS scythe assassin can probably deal a higher overall damage with my discordway than the old [assassin's promise][you move like a dwarf][ebon vanguard assassin support][finish him] combo, can with it.

No it can't. That is the point. Shouts are and insta-260 damage (80+80+DW) at any range. EVAS alone literally replaces a sin's entire bar.

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That is the point I am trying to make all along. Use your head, rather than throw up a generic build in everyone's face and say use this AP+Discordway, it is the best possible build for EVERY situation!

I never, ever said AP+discordway is "the best possible build for every situation." AP caller IS better for MOST professions, for reasons already stated. Exception of course includes the warrior, since he has no e-management.

But if you play a warrior, you're probably better off doing some HB/MoP/Splinter nuking and blowing up entire mobs in seconds.

daze · Feb 12, 2009, 06:34 AM // 06:34

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Originally Posted by Daesu

Are you pretending not to understand or do you really use AP to recharge your SY?

Neither

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Originally Posted by Daesu

Do you really think that when I referred to the AP+3 PvE skills combo, I meant to use SY as an example?

Nope

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Originally Posted by Daesu

You shouldn't use AP to prime discord. AP should be cast just before the target dies. Otherwise, you risk losing your AP and mess up your build.

Works fine for me, I use [assassins promise][you move like a dwarf] to prime, then [pain inverter] to cover and [enduring toxin] to cover that and [finish him] to wipe up. And i almost never miss the 13 second window for the promise.

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Originally Posted by Daesu

Like I have said, I have nothing against AP builds since I use them on some of my characters too. But I can still use my version of discordway just as well enough even without AP.

Fair enough, but what you originally said was [assassins promise] doesn't make discordway any more efficient.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2009, 06:39 AM // 06:39

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Originally Posted by traversc

No it can't. That is the point. Shouts are and insta-260 damage (80+80+DW) at any range. EVAS alone literally replaces a sin's entire bar.

That is to a SINGLE target. EVAS doesn't last long against a strong opponent. With just Splinter Weapon, and MoP a scythe assassin can already deal more overall damage in the same amount of time.

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AP caller IS better for MOST professions, for reasons already stated. Exception of course includes the warrior, since he has no e-management.

Even that statement is debatable. Should all Imbagons start using AP then? Should all ER/Infuse Ele start using AP then? Every good build has something to offer and they dont all necessarily have to be built around AP.

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But if you play a warrior, you're probably better off doing some HB/MoP/Splinter nuking and blowing up entire mobs in seconds.

And nobody says you cant include Splinter/MoP in a discordway build either.

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Works fine for me, I use [assassins promise][you move like a dwarf] to prime, then [pain inverter] to cover and [enduring toxin] to cover that. And i almost never miss the 13 second window for the promise.

If you are bringing another pve skill then you have to replace EVAS or FH.

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Fair enough, but what you originaly said was [assassins promise] doesn't make discordway any more efficient.

AP does not increase the damage from discord. Also there can be other non-AP builds that are more efficient, depending on the situation.

daze · Feb 12, 2009, 06:54 AM // 06:54

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Originally Posted by Daesu

Even that statement is debatable. Should all Imbagons start using AP then? Should all ER/Infuse Ele start using AP then? Every good build has something to offer and they dont all necessarily have to be built around AP.

Well if you are using Discordway then you probably aren't adjusting your heroes to synergies with your build. And if you aren't trying to synergies with your heroes, then you are out of place. An ER infuse ele doesn't belong in a discordway team because of all the N/Rt heals being thrown around. Kinda like the Sesame Street song "One of These Things is Not Like The Other" And like a warrior trying make is bar to push a bunch of yellow numbers on a discord team. Not useful.

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Originally Posted by Daesu

AP does not increase the damage from discord. Also there can be other non-AP builds that are more efficient, depending on the situation.

you dont need to increase the damage of discord. thats just silly. Between [discord][putrid bile] and [death nova] then your [you move like a dwarf][finish him] you have all the yellow numbers you need. The only thing that becomes useful is either utility or support. Which [assassins promise] provides a ton of. Its utility is its very spammable hexing capacity, and its support is its skill recharging capacity along with its e-management.

AtomicMew · Feb 12, 2009, 06:56 AM // 06:56

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Originally Posted by Daesu

That is to a SINGLE target. EVAS doesn't last long against a strong opponent. With just Splinter Weapon, and MoP a scythe assassin can already deal more overall damage in the same amount of time.

Oops, your target just died. Now you have to wait 20 seconds for MoP to recharge. MoP is a terrible hex for a discord hero to bring. EVAS lasts long enough to do its thing. I usually have 3-4 out at a time. If EVAS is being targetted and dies, GOOD less damage to your team. Better than your hero being targeted and dying.

Should all Imbagons start using AP then?
Depends on area; paragons aren't terrible with AP because they have decent e-management options.
Should all ER/Infuse Ele start using AP then?
Yes; you're better off playing some other build if you do ER-Infuse.

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Every good build has something to offer and they dont all necessarily have to be built around AP.

Agreed, but as already stated, AP is the best case in MOST situations.

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AP does not increase the damage from discord.

Don't mince words. AP DOES increase the damage from discordWAY significantly. Whether or not it increases damage from discord {E} is irrelevant since it's a team build, and I think you know that.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2009, 07:02 AM // 07:02

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Originally Posted by daze

Well if you are using Discordway then you probably aren't adjusting your heroes to synergies with your build. And if you aren't trying to synergies with your heroes, then you are out of place. An ER infuse ele doesn't belong in a discordway team because of all the N/Rt heals being thrown around.

And that is the point, you don't need any explicit synergy. An ER infuse ele is useful simply for keeping the team alive, that in itself is good enough for me. Similarly for the Imbagon.

If you dont like it, add asuran scan so you can sleep better at night.

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you dont need to increase the damage of discord. thats just silly. Between [discord][putrid bile] and [death nova] then your [you move like a dwarf][finish him] you have all the yellow numbers you need. The only thing that becomes useful is either utility or support. Which [assassins promise] provides a ton of.

You can already provide a ton of utility or support without AP. Like I have already said, AP is useful, but it is not always the BEST choice for all situations even when using it with discordway.

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Originally Posted by traversc

Oops, your target just died. Now you have to wait 20 seconds for MoP to recharge.

Scythe assassins (i.e. A/D) dont bring MoP on their skill bars. Discord necro heroes can bring MoP.

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MoP is a terrible hex for a discord hero to bring. EVAS lasts long enough to do its thing. I usually have 3-4 out at a time. If EVAS is being targetted and dies, GOOD less damage to your team. Better than your hero being targeted and dying.

MoP is good enough for most hero uses, considering the damage it deals. And please stop even comparing your EVAS effectiveness to a well played human assassin. There is just no comparison. Your 3 to 4 EVAS running randomly is not as effective as a single buffed up scythe assassin when played well. Positioning is key, but unfortunately your EVAS dont know that and tend to draw even more aggro.

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Should all Imbagons start using AP then?
Depends on area; paragons aren't terrible with AP because they have decent e-management options.

Imbagons rely on adrenaline to fuel SY. Can your AP provide that same +100 armor to all other party members?

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Should all ER/Infuse Ele start using AP then?
Yes; you're better off playing some other build if you do ER-Infuse.

ER/Infuse can dish out more healing than even WoH. Can your AP build match that same level of healing and protection?

daze · Feb 12, 2009, 07:15 AM // 07:15

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Originally Posted by Daesu

And that is the point, you don't need any explicit synergy.

Well this is where your opinion differs with mine and the majority of GW players. Because IMHO Synergy is the key. Synergy should be first priority, and if a player is running a build that has nothing to do with contributing to the mettle of the team backbone, that player gets a swift KICK. ER ele is totally unnecessary especially on a discord team because 3/4 of your heroes have Rt restore skills and Mo prot/heal skills filling most of their bars.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2009, 07:19 AM // 07:19

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Originally Posted by daze

Well this is where your opinion differs with mine and the majority of GW players. Because IMHO Synergy is the key. Synergy should be first priority, and if a player is running a build that has nothing to do with contributing to the mettle of the team backbone, that player gets a swift KICK. ER ele is totally unnecessary especially on a discord team because 3/4 of your heroes have Rt restore skills and Mo prot/heal skills filling most of their bars.

Restore skills just makes red bars go up. They are no substitute for protection, not to mention the fact that ER Infuse beats it face down even in terms of healing.

Keeping your team members alive already counts as fulfilling an important role within the team synergy.

daze · Feb 12, 2009, 08:17 AM // 08:17

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Originally Posted by Daesu

Restore skills just makes red bars go up. They are no substitute for protection, not to mention the fact that ER Infuse beats it face down even in terms of healing.

Keeping your team members alive already counts as fulfilling an important role within the team synergy.

Well, i didnt see how my last post was delete-worthy. But regardless let me rephrase.
I am not talking about exclusive red-bar-goes-up restoration. If you didnt notice the bold part in my post above, It also talks about having a couple N/Mo heroes with a prot bar set up. So I am not saying that N/Rt is a substitute for protection.

And the fact that a single E/Mo ER Prot ele is better than a single N/Mo Prot monk has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Like i said in my post that vanished, N/Rt (Heal) + N/Rt (Heal) + N/Mo (Prot) + N/Mo (Prot) = Enough heal and prot for the whole team. While an ER Ele has its uses, in a discord team is not one of them.

If i was going to bring any other defensive player to a discord team, it would be an Imbagon with [save yourselves] and without [assassins promise]. Because more prot would be useless while extra 100 armor wouldnt.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2009, 09:08 AM // 09:08

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Originally Posted by daze

And the fact that a single E/Mo ER Prot ele is better than a single N/Mo Prot monk has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Like i said in my post that vanished, N/Rt (Heal) + N/Rt (Heal) + N/Mo (Prot) + N/Mo (Prot) = Enough heal and prot for the whole team. While an ER Ele has its uses, in a discord team is not one of them.

And what makes you think that you would need that many healers and protectors with a ER/Infuse ele in the team? You seem to forget that discordway doesn't have ONE single fixed build, it is a whole variety of builds that can be tweaked in whatever shape of form as long as it has discord.

You have yet to prove to me why discordway would fail if an ER/Infuse ele joins the team, other than the fact that your PERSONAL preference would not allow it. Any healer/prot character can still use discordway or sabway without penalty.

This leads to my earlier point that a good discordway does not impose a specific build on the character.

daze · Feb 12, 2009, 09:34 AM // 09:34

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Originally Posted by Daesu

And what makes you think that you would need that many healers and protectors with a ER/Infuse ele in the team? You seem to forget that discordway doesn't have ONE single fixed build, it is a whole variety of builds that can be tweaked in whatever shape of form as long as it has discord.

You seem to forget that although there is no set discordway team build, there is a norm or a standard template in which 99.9% of all discord users go by. And the understood formula for a 6 hero discord team is 1: N/Rt heal... 2: N/Rt heal... 3: N/Mo Prot... 4:N/Mo prot/heal... 5: N Minion master... 6: N Curser. That seems to be the standard format for 99% of discord builds out there, with slight variations. But sure, as you so aptly point out, there is an exception to every rule. And if you want to swap out a hero and take on that role yourself, then knock yourself out. Whatever blows your skirt up. This is the earliest thread on discord that i could find.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10315920

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Originally Posted by Daesu

You have yet to prove to me why discordway would fail if an ER/Infuse ele joins the team, other than the fact that your PERSONAL preference would not allow it. Any healer/prot character can still use discordway or sabway without penalty.

You have yet to quote me accurately. I never said anything about a team failing because it had too much prot. I mentioned that in the average discordway team, an ER ele is unnecessary. I have enough words in my mouth without you putting more in it.

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Originally Posted by Daesu

This leads to my earlier point that a good discordway does not impose a specific build on the character.

Ok this is true. However, some builds are more efficient than others in specific areas and some builds are more efficient in most areas. AP being a build that is more efficient in MOST areas.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

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Originally Posted by daze

You seem to forget that although there is no set discordway team build, there is a norm or a standard template in which 99.9% of all discord users go by. And the understood formula for a 6 hero discord team is 1: N/Rt heal... 2: N/Rt heal... 3: N/Mo Prot... 4:N/Mo prot/heal... 5: N Minion master... 6: N Curser. That seems to be the standard format for 99% of discord builds out there

What makes you think I am talking about a 6 heroes discordway? And despite your attempts at defining your own personal discordway variant as THE definitive build, it is not.

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You have yet to quote me accurately. I never said anything about a team failing because it had too much prot. I mentioned that in the average discordway team, an ER ele is unnecessary. I have enough words in my mouth without you putting more in it.

Again, define the average discordway. There is no such thing and you dont have to quote YOUR particular variant again as the standard which you think that others should follow.

We are going in circles, you keep trying to nail it down to your build and I keep saying there is no one single build for discordway.

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Ok this is true. However, some builds are more efficient than others in specific areas and some builds are more efficient in most areas. AP being a build that is more efficient in MOST areas.

Like I have said before, efficiency is measured in many ways. Is an ER/Infuse ele inefficient? Is an Imbagon inefficient? Can AP grant +100 armor to all other party members?

You keep going in circles now because you ran out of points to argue with.

AtomicMew · Feb 12, 2009, 05:09 PM // 17:09

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Originally Posted by Daesu

Scythe assassins (i.e. A/D) dont bring MoP on their skill bars. Discord necro heroes can bring MoP.

No, you are wrong. I frequently bring MoP on my A/D/N all the time. It's simple.

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MoP is good enough for most hero uses, considering the damage it deals. And please stop even comparing your EVAS effectiveness to a well played human assassin. There is just no comparison. Your 3 to 4 EVAS running randomly is not as effective as a single buffed up scythe assassin when played well. Positioning is key, but unfortunately your EVAS dont know that and tend to draw even more aggro.

MoP is a bad hex on heroes, because it does nothing on death (unlike putrid bile). It's wasted, has a long recharge and requires an additional spec.

Also, don't underestimate EVAS. It provides knocklock/shutdown with YMLAD and also some pretty nice damage (15 dagger mastery). It also doesn't matter if it dies, unlike a scythe sin.

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Imbagons rely on adrenaline to fuel SY. Can your AP provide that same +100 armor to all other party members?

ER/Infuse can dish out more healing than even WoH. Can your AP build match that same level of healing and protection?

As already stated, by daze and myself, there is no synergy between imbagon or ER-Infuse. If you play those builds, you are better off playing some other necro-way.

I think the above statement is the thing at least everyone should agree on.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2009, 06:26 PM // 18:26

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Originally Posted by traversc

No, you are wrong. I frequently bring MoP on my A/D/N all the time. It's simple.

Read what I said. I am using an A/D, I cant bring MoP on my own skill bar even if I want to. But my heroes can.

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MoP is a bad hex on heroes, because it does nothing on death (unlike putrid bile). It's wasted, has a long recharge and requires an additional spec.

20s recharge is not that long and my heroes seem to have no problem with it.

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Also, don't underestimate EVAS. It provides knocklock/shutdown with YMLAD and also some pretty nice damage (15 dagger mastery). It also doesn't matter if it dies, unlike a scythe sin.

EVAS is nice but you still cant say EVAS >= a good human sin player. If you really want to go into the argument that your EVAS is better than any human sin, lets do it in the sin forum.

I dont think you have even realized how sucky the EVAS skill bar is compared to a buffed up human scythe sin build.

The healing capability of an ER/Infuse or the protection capability of an Imbagon already speaks for themselves. And the assumption that AP makes a better synergy is also wrong because it should be cast when the target is about to die, not to prime discord.

Yet again, all these points have already been mentioned and addressed. We are going in circles.

Super Igor · Feb 13, 2009, 12:00 AM // 00:00

I agree, EVAS combined with YMLaD is absolutely fantastic! You can q-knock which is a great shutdown (4 seconds of "dead" mob is gud) especially to take down toughies like Monks it also has the highest unconditional single target damage among every other PvE skill really and is continious so after the sin does it's chain it will run and attack the next target so with AP and Discord spikes you end up with3-4 sins running around which is cool, also dont forget that its a meat shield. :P

Also to Daesu: Stop theorycrafting please youre bad at it. You have never run Discord with a caller I can see it so dont lie or you have with setup that sucked. AP makes great synergy because you know that your target is going to die or your Discord fails, but nobody makes builds around failing so ofc. AP will be the first thing that comes in handy because it allows for fastest calls with vertually no downtime also neglecting the long recharges of very strong skills and high energy returns. There is one thing in what you saying though, you might not want to open with discord when fighting toughies (high hp) but in that case you have (should have) [enduring poison] [mark of death] on your bar so you can use them to set up a call and proceed with AP when your target is damage enough but normally you dont need to do this AP spike > Discord > done.

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20s recharge is not that long and my heroes seem to have no problem with it.

17 second downtime says hi becvause theyre going to discord the MoP'ed target and 3 secs is usually what it takes. :>

Daesu · Feb 13, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

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Originally Posted by Super Igor

I agree, EVAS combined with YMLaD is absolutely fantastic! You can q-knock which is a great shutdown (4 seconds of "dead" mob is gud) especially to take down toughies like Monks it also has the highest unconditional single target damage among every other PvE skill really and is continious so after the sin does it's chain it will run and attack the next target so with AP and Discord spikes you end up with3-4 sins running around which is cool, also dont forget that its a meat shield. :P

I can't be bothered to repeat myself. You can always try to prove your EVAS does more damage than my scythe sin at the master of damage. Dare to take up the challenge?