Curse

daze · Feb 03, 2009, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Makes things much faster helps against gay halers what else do you need?

this [you move like a dwarf]

Super Igor · Feb 03, 2009, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

this [you move like a dwarf]

this what? dont see what you want to say here.

fireflyry · Feb 10, 2009, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Unless your specifically wanting to vanq or title grind I'd stick with Sabway.

While never denying it's effectiveness, using Discordway is hands down the most boring experience I've ever had in my years playing GW.

The fact it dictates the play style and build of the player is epic fail for me.

123,123,123,123.......

Then again 90% of players now are focused on grind + speed + ease of use, in which case Discordway is win.If your just after GWAMM or HM speed runs with negligible effort or risk I'd say go for it.

If your wanting variation of play, especially in your builds use, effectiveness and enjoyment I'd stick with Sabway, especially if your talking areas/missions you haven't been to or quite finished yet.

Your choice, either way good luck.

/2 cents.

Daesu · Feb 10, 2009, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Unless your specifically wanting to vanq or title grind I'd stick with Sabway.

While never denying it's effectiveness, using Discordway is hands down the most boring experience I've ever had in my years playing GW.

The fact it dictates the play style and build of the player is epic fail for me.

Why should you need to change the build and play style of the player to match your heroes? You should do it the other way around, which is to change your heroes to match your player characters. And there are definitely alot more effective hero builds than sabway or discordway.

For example, my DSlash warrior uses a [[Ray of Judgment] variant hero build quite well.

fireflyry · Feb 10, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Why should you need to change the build and play style of the player to match your heroes? You should do it the other way around, which is to change your heroes to match your player characters.

That's pretty much exactly what I said.

Discordway atypically demands a "caller" build.

123, 123, 123, 123....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And there are definitely alot more effective hero builds than sabway or discordway.

Exactly.

We are on the same page here.

Robbins · Feb 11, 2009, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Do you run discordway much? check out the fixing discordway thread. I run discord way with a HB monk. IMO Discord way does not need a special caller build. I call the target but that's it.

Anwyn · Feb 11, 2009, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbins

Do you run discordway much? check out the fixing discordway thread. I run discord way with a HB monk. IMO Discord way does not need a special caller build. I call the target but that's it.

Agree... I used Discord with my para and the imbagon build, I simply put barbed spear in and pounded emwith it... Tho, I didn't like Discord at all, so I went back to my 3 Para, 1 Orders build... Now I am a happy camper again!

Daesu · Feb 11, 2009, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

That's pretty much exactly what I said.

Discordway atypically demands a "caller" build.

123, 123, 123, 123....

You dont really need any special "caller" build to work with discordway. Bringing hexes and condition inflicting skills on your player character would help, but even that is not necessary since a good discordway build should be self-sufficient.

Sometimes people would ask you to bring this on your character to synergize with your discordway heroes:

[assassins promise][you move like a dwarf][ebon vanguard assassin support][finish him]

..but that build template is not really necessary for discordway to work.

fireflyry · Feb 11, 2009, 11:56 AM // 11:56

I'm not arguing that.

I stated "atypically".

Fact is Discordway still places restrictions and requirements on the players build to work to it's fullest potential and core intention, unlike Sabway where you can run what you want, experiment and have fun.

We all know this as being part of the build hence it's a rather mute point and I'm not arguing against personal preference.

That's stupid.

My intention was to state to the OP he/she might have more fun rolling another hero build, especially in first time areas, Sabway being a great example, one which doesn't demand or require the player to alter their build to get the most out of their heroes.

Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbins

Do you run discordway much?

Heck no.

As I previously stated I've personally found it the most boring way to play Guild Wars unless you enjoy c-spacing hex and condition spam.

Have I tried it and had experience with other players I've known for years that run it extensively who, as a result, have vast knowledge of the build?

Yes.

Daesu · Feb 11, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Fact is Discordway still places restrictions and requirements on the players build to work to it's fullest potential and core intention, unlike Sabway where you can run what you want, experiment and have fun.

Not true. A good discordway build is self-sufficient and does not place any restrictions or requirements on the players build to work.

Sabway is an old build that was created before discord was buffed for pve. Otherwise I wont be surprised if it includes discord in there.

AtomicMew · Feb 11, 2009, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Not true. A good discordway build is self-sufficient and does not place any restrictions or requirements on the players build to work.

Sabway is an old build that was created before discord was buffed for pve. Otherwise I wont be surprised if it includes discord in there.

Disagree. if you can supply the hexes/conditions, your heroes dont need to.

Also, the player IS restricted... you really should be an AP caller if you play discordway. It's been shown countless times that over time, SS > discord. It's only because you can spike shit that discord is better. The entire point of discordway is to recharge AP as fast as possible so that the player can output 200+ dps. If you're not gonna play an AP caller, you might as well do sabway, which is sturdier, but slower.

(Of course it's not going to matter most of the time, since 99% of GW is EZGW. Let's not talk about EZGW)

Daesu · Feb 11, 2009, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Disagree. if you can supply the hexes/conditions, your heroes dont need to.

If you are relying on your player to supply all the hexes/conditions then your discordway would suck because it has a single point of failure. Besides, I like going AFK while my discordway heroes handle stuff for me. If your discordway can't support that then it is a bad variant.

Also, if your player dies with all the hexes and conditions on his bar, your heroes cant use discord anymore? Right....

Quote:

Also, the player IS restricted... you really should be an AP caller if you play discordway.

Wrong! You dont have to use AP to make discordway work and AP is not the ONLY hex in the game.

I guess I must be a magician to make my discordway work well without AP then.

Quote:

It's been shown countless times that over time, SS > discord. It's only because you can spike shit that discord is better. The entire point of discordway is to recharge AP as fast as possible so that the player can output 200+ dps. If you're not gonna play an AP caller, you might as well do sabway, which is sturdier, but slower.

If you kill your targets faster, you would be safer too so the best defense is a good offense. In general, discord can dish out more damage than SS typically.

Sabway is not sturdier, it is just an outdated build that was created before the discord buff. If you have spared the time to read Sab's thread, she couldn't think of better elites to use other than SS or Weapon of Remedy at that time.

An updated sabway uses discord and becomes a discordway variant itself.

Pocketmancer · Feb 12, 2009, 12:17 AM // 00:17

You don't need an AP set up to make Discord builds work, but you're just hindering yourself on efficiency most of the time. AP callers work because of the extremely spammable nature of a hex/condition combo. While your necros can apply the hexes and conditions themselves, waiting for them to do so can take longer than if you've done it yourself. The functionality and goal of Discord builds is to take down things as fast as possible. AP just makes it more efficient.

I've taken other builds to go with Discord setups. Best thing I've came up with as an Elementalist (since that's my main) was a [[Fragility]/[[Shell Shock] caller. And even then, it just didn't compare to the speed and efficienty of [[Assassin's Promise]/[["You Move Like a Dwarf!"] caller. Faster recharge, faster hex casting, instant condition applying, and energy management all in two skills. It's pretty clear AP callers are the norm for Discord team setups.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2009, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

You don't need an AP set up to make Discord builds work, but you're just hindering yourself on efficiency most of the time. AP callers work because of the extremely spammable nature of a hex/condition combo. While your necros can apply the hexes and conditions themselves, waiting for them to do so can take longer than if you've done it yourself. The functionality and goal of Discord builds is to take down things as fast as possible. AP just makes it more efficient.

Again AP doesn't make discordway more efficient. To discord, AP is just a hex. If your heroes already carry enough hexes, then you dont need AP to make it work. Besides the best time to cast AP is when your target is about to die, not at the very beginning so AP is not the best hex primer for discord. But casting AP just before the target dies would mean using some amount of player skill, which most players dont have.

Quote:

I've taken other builds to go with Discord setups. Best thing I've came up with as an Elementalist (since that's my main) was a [[Fragility]/[[Shell Shock] caller. And even then, it just didn't compare to the speed and efficienty of [[Assassin's Promise]/[["You Move Like a Dwarf!"] caller. Faster recharge, faster hex casting, instant condition applying, and energy management all in two skills. It's pretty clear AP callers are the norm for Discord team setups.

I dont like to have to restrict my secondary to an assassin. I can use [[asuran scan] on my physical attackers if I want to place a hex with them. [[Visions of Regret] would also work, for a mesmer. In any case, a good discordway variant is self-sufficient and does not impose on the player build.

daze · Feb 12, 2009, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Again AP doesn't make discordway more efficient. To discord, AP is just a hex. If your heroes already carry enough hexes, then you dont need AP to make it work. Besides the best time to cast AP is when your target is about to die, not at the very beginning so AP is not the best hex primer for discord.

I dont like to have to restrict my secondary to an assassin. I can use [[asuran scan] on my physical attackers if I want to place a hex with them. [[Visions of Regret] would also work, for a mesmer. In any case, a good discordway variant is self-sufficient and does not impose on the player build.

I was agreeing with everything you said up until the bolded part. [[assassins promise] does make discordway a hell of a lot more efficient. Not to say that it is totally dependent on that skill to make or break the team. But it is by far the best spammable hex with the best benefits towards spamming your hexes and conditions.
There are definitely lots of other choices for hexes and conditions that will run discordway perfectly fine, like [[asuran scan] which you mentioned or [[fragility], [[scourge healing], [[mind wrack], [[freezing gust] and lots of other low recharge hexes. Still none of them have as much potential as [[assassins promise]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

But casting AP just before the target dies would mean using some amount of player skill, which most players dont have.

This would be true if we weren't talking about discordway. [[assassins promise] gives you at least 10 seconds to kill an enemy. And discordway takes less than 5 seconds to kill an enemy. Which means you have a 99% chance of successfully activating the recharge.

But you are still mostly correct. [[assassins promise] really should only be used by casters to utilize its full potential. Even though [assassins promise][asuran scan] works well with melee. But by no means does discordway rely on [[assassins promise] to make it successful, nor should it have to rely totally on you as a leader to manage all the hexes and conditions. But i dont think you can honestly say that [[assassins promise] doesn't make discordway more efficient, because it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

To discord, AP is just a hex.

Its a bit more than that, its also a means to recharge any other supporting skills on you bar (conditions, more hexes etc..) and it is also a means to replenish the majority (if not all) of the energy it costs to cast your main skills.

Pocketmancer · Feb 12, 2009, 05:01 AM // 05:01

When denying the efficiency of AP in Discord team setups, I can only come up with three conclusions:

1) You've never been calling with AP.
2) You don't know what efficiency means.
3) You're just arguing out of pride.

I'll rule out 1 and 2 since I'm fairly certain those aren't the main issues. Since I'm left with 3, I'm just not going to bother arguing since it's a waste of energy.

daze · Feb 12, 2009, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

When denying the efficiency of AP in Discord team setups, I can only come up with three conclusions:

1) You've never been calling with AP.
2) You don't know what efficiency means.
3) You're just arguing out of pride.
4) You are trying to point out that [[assassins promise] is not the Only build a caller can run, and you just got carried away.

I'll rule out 1 and 2 since I'm fairly certain those aren't the main issues. Since I'm left with 3, I'm just not going to bother arguing since it's a waste of energy.

i fixed that for you, i think #4 is the real reason. or maybe a mixture of #3 and #4

Daesu · Feb 12, 2009, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

I was agreeing with everything you said up until the bolded part. [[assassins promise] does make discordway a hell of a lot more efficient. Not to say that it is totally dependent on that skill to make or break the team. But it is by far the best spammable hex with the best benefits towards spamming your hexes and conditions.
There are definitely lots of other choices for hexes and conditions that will run discordway perfectly fine, like [[asuran scan] which you mentioned or [[fragility], [[scourge healing], [[mind wrack], [[freezing gust] and lots of other low recharge hexes. Still none of them have as much potential as [[assassins promise]

I think you totally miss the point. If you like AP in your character build, fine, use that with your discordway. But you can't say that discordway would only work with AP and not other hexes.

Is AP the best possible hex for discordway in ALL situations? Of course not! Tell me why my DSlash warrior would perform better with an AP build, for example.

Also there are many other builds that are as useful or as powerful as an AP build. I would rather play an Ether Renewal Infuse Ele or an Imbagon and still be useful to the team. Why must every build be around AP?

Quote:

This would be true if we weren't talking about discordway. [[assassins promise] gives you at least 10 seconds to kill an enemy. And discordway takes less than 5 seconds to kill an enemy. Which means you have a 99% chance of successfully activating the recharge.

But casting AP in the beginning just to prime your discordway leaves you vulnerable to fast hex removal if a mesmer or monk monster is around. AP should only be cast when the target is about to die, which makes it a poor choice to prime discord.

Daesu · Feb 12, 2009, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

How can you say AP is "just a hex"? AP lets you have THE highest dps in the game bar none.

Just admit you are wrong.

So you are saying that every player character MUST use AP and all other non-AP builds are trash?

I prefer my warrior to use DSlash, why would he need AP? And I prefer my ER Ele to use Ether Renewal for better protection. There are many other reasons to choose a different elite. Imbagons also dont need to use AP, are you saying that they therefore suck?

A good discordway is self-sufficient because it can be used with many other builds. I dont choose to use AP because of discordway. I choose my player build first, then the hero build to support it second.

AP doesn't help discord damage, this "must use AP with Discordway" reasoning is hyped so much that it is getting ridiculous! It is turning into the "I must bring all hexes and conditions on my own character because I use discordway" build argument into a single point of utter failure! You have all been using generic builds so much, you have forgotten what the other builds are good for.

pingu666 · Feb 12, 2009, 05:24 AM // 05:24

AP gives u oppertunity to abuse skills even more, hence its use.

works well with powerful but longish recharge assassin chains, like the old shadow prison build