Curse

daze · Feb 17, 2009, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

lol Asuran Scan doesnt have zero recharge and none of your condition options have 0 recharge, can kd, interrupt, be cast from full range and deal 80 armor ignoring damage all at the same time.

I dont think that Daseu is dense enough to claim that using discord on a Mele character can match up to the potential of discord on a caster. He was just saying that Doscordway works with [Asuran scan], which it does. The obvious reasons are obvious. Asuran scan is second best to AP. Thats just a fact. While using Asuran scan and other melee conditions on enemies is perfectly feasible and efficient enough to run discordway, it would take a moron to claim that melee can run it as fast as a caster can.

1. Casters dont have to run up to the enemy and chase it down to apply conditions. Which means you prime the enemy IMMEDIATELY.
2. Casters have a bigger energy management system which allows for more spammage of the best condition causing skills, PvE skills. [you move like a dwarf][finish him]
3. Casters can make better use of [[assassins promise] which is the MOST spammable hex in the game.

Now while it is the purest definition or cookie cutter, It works for most characters in most areas better than most other builds. This is why sabway is favored more by the melee crowd while discordway is symbiotic to casters.

Daesu · Feb 17, 2009, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

lol Asuran Scan doesnt have zero racharge and none of your condition options have 0 recharge, can kd, interrupt, be cast from full range and deal 80 armor ignoring damage all at the same time.

Sure asuran scan doesn't have zero recharge, it has a 5s recharge, 0s cast time, and costing only 5e. Even if it is removed, you are also not screwed, unlike AP.

80 armor ignoring damage is nothing, Splinter Weapon can potentially deal up to 420 AoE armor ignoring damage per cast at level 10 for only 5e, and 5s recharge.

Besides, if you look at many of the discordway builds offered by posters here, many of them DO support physical damage characters and splinter weapon:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10321473

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0315920&page=3

Are you saying we are all wrong and only you are right?

I dont think any of you are dense enough to claim that a support caster character with those skills can out damage a buffed up physical character do you? Otherwise we can settle this once and for all at the Master of Damage.

Without Splinter Weapon and needing to force physical characters to play like a caster, I wonder how you can claim that your discordway kills faster than sabway.

daze · Feb 17, 2009, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Without Splinter Weapon and needing to force physical characters to play like a caster, I wonder how you can claim that your discordway kills faster than sabway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daze

1. Casters dont have to run up to the enemy and chase it down to apply conditions. Which means you prime the enemy IMMEDIATELY.

When i play discordway with my roommate, he runs melee and i run AP caller. 7 times out of 10 i kill the enemy before he has a chance to run up to the enemy and hit it once with his scythe. Which means Casters are faster than melee in discordway. If im constantly erasing enemies before my melee partner even has a chance to get in a single strike, then i think it is safe to say that im faster.

Please keep in mind that im killing enemies faster than it takes him to even catch the enemy, let alone killing faster than it takes him to get off a few attack skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I dont think any of you are dense enough to claim that a support caster character with those skills can out damage a buffed up physical character do you? Otherwise we can settle this once and for all at the Master of Damage.

Master of damage would not give an accurate reflection as to the efficiency of real-time battle. It doesnt take in to account target priority or enemy kiting.

Dont think that im saying that Casters now put out more DPS than Melee, because im not. If you took out the 600hp armor ignoring spikes with the multiple Armor ignoring 100hp AoE explosions, then melee would be able to show off by doing what they do best, DPS.

Daesu · Feb 17, 2009, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

When i play discordway with my roommate, he runs melee and i run AP caller. 7 times out of 10 i kill the enemy before he has a chance to run up to the enemy and hit it once with his scythe. Which means Casters are faster than melee in discordway. If im constantly erasing enemies before my melee partner even has a chance to get in a single strike, then i think it is safe to say that im faster.

Asuran Scan is not melee range either.

Quote:

Please keep in mind that im killing enemies faster than it takes him to even catch the enemy, let alone killing faster than it takes him to get off a few attack skills.

Be thankful that your friend is keeping the enemies at bay while you keep casting to support him from behind, all the time remembering that he is the main damage dealer.

I have played both a caster (even one with the AP+PvE skills build), and a scythe assassin and the verdict is, the scythe assassin kills so much faster than the caster there is just no comparison. If I am not that confident that my buffed-up assassin kills faster, I wouldn't be challenging anyone.

Quote:

Master of damage would not give an accurate reflection as to the efficiency of real-time battle. It doesnt take in to account target priority or enemy kiting.

It goes to show the difference is damage is so great, that the choice is obvious even in a typical PvE setting. In fact, I wouldn't even be surprised if my assassin kills faster with sabway than your caster does with your discordway.

UnChosen · Feb 17, 2009, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Personally, discordway does not fit my play style. Generally when I play I flag my heroes 1.5 aggro bubble away while I rush in and aggro as much as possible that I estimate I could take. Ex. I routinely take on 10+ afflicted monsters in factions, and if the monster is crap/composed mostly of physicals I usually aggro around 15 at once since enfeebling blood + aegis renders them mostly useless anyways. With sabway the aoe from SS, splinter, death nova, and mark of pain kills the mob far faster than I've been able to with discordway.

Another reason I don't like discordway is that the heroes are slower to react unless I call every single target, and there are always a few casters in the back that get missed by the aoe hex/condition that the heroes will slowly try to apply, forcing me to be completely a hex/condition bot, which is boring as hell. With sabway I can be nearly everything I want and still be extremely effective.

Daesu · Feb 17, 2009, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Personally, discordway does not fit my play style. Generally when I play I flag my heroes 1.5 aggro bubble away while I rush in and aggro as much as possible that I estimate I could take. Ex. I routinely take on 10+ afflicted monsters in factions, and if the monster is crap/composed mostly of physicals I usually aggro around 15 at once since enfeebling blood + aegis renders them mostly useless anyways. With sabway the aoe from SS, splinter, death nova, and mark of pain kills the mob far faster than I've been able to with discordway.

Another reason I don't like discordway is that the heroes are slower to react unless I call every single target, and there are always a few casters in the back that get missed by the aoe hex/condition that the heroes will slowly try to apply, forcing me to be completely a hex/condition bot, which is boring as hell. With sabway I can be nearly everything I want and still be extremely effective.

That's right. That is how I like to play too.

With aggro like that and Splinter Weapon, you clear the mobs much faster even with sabway than to use Igor's discordway that requires even the physical damage characters to play like casters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Exactly.

In saying this is'nt a Sab vs Discord thread but one to improve the PvX Discordway build, which is pretty crap by all accounts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Yes it is! Because that wiki "counterpart" was submitted by me aswell and is nothing more than an older version of D-Way I run now.

If even many years old sabway can beat that, then why even have this? It obviously requires change but despite this thread the authors seem to be very resistant to enabling this build for physical characters despite the fact that they "claim" to support physical characters.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Discord_Spam

The first 5 skills on that bar alone already cost a total of 40e. Good luck getting the W/A warrior to go with that. And with the recommended skill, [[counterattack]? And please dont get me started on the other warrior recommended skill, [[signet of stamina] to go with it.

brigsaz · Feb 17, 2009, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

That's right. That is how I like to play too.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Discord_Spam

The first 5 skills on that bar alone already cost a total of 40e. Good luck getting the W/A warrior to go with that. And with the recommended skill, [[counterattack]? And please dont get me started on the other warrior recommended skill, [[signet of stamina] to go with it.

As a physical character, wouldnt you only need to focus on conditions? This would eliminate any need for the high energy skills. YMLD is pretty much all you need to get discord moving. The heros will apply the hexes.

fireflyry · Feb 17, 2009, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

It obviously requires change but despite this thread the authors seem to be very resistant to enabling this build for physical characters despite the fact that they "claim" to support physical characters.

That's wiki for you.

In saying I personally think the build does "support" physical players, it's just not made specifically for melee, works better with casters, and can obviously be optimized and tweaked if physical classes want to use it.

I don't see them not wanting to post every unsaid variation or possibility as valid criticism.

Wiki builds are often basic core ideas that don't cover all the bases but I don't think we should expect them too.The player shouldn't have to be spoon feed logical adaption of generic builds to suit their individual needs or play style.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The first 5 skills on that bar alone already cost a total of 40e. Good luck getting the W/A warrior to go with that.

I agree it's to much for my liking although your assuming it's implementation as well, of course you would adapt the build and play style if your a Warrior.

[skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]"You Move Like a Dwarf!"[/skill][skill]"Finish Him!"[/skill] are all that's really needed to be effective.

A cover hex is situational imho and [skill]Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support[/skill] is just there if you can afford it as stated:

Quote:

Try not to cast Support if you do not have enough energy to do so, you will not recover it fully from AP on some professions

It sucks if your going to 12345 spam every time a mob drops but then, especially as a Warrior, your playing badly anyway.

Also don't discount that any physical who uses Discordway extensively would be foolish to stand around in their standard gear, holding an unused weapon, with 20-30 energy if they decide on using a caller build like the example given.

A cheap suit of max armor modded out and a +15 staff easily nets over 40 energy on any class, just switch it out.

Integrate [skill]Blood Ritual[/skill] on one of the heroes if your still struggling and your good to go.

Not overly practical imo but it works.

daze · Feb 18, 2009, 03:55 AM // 03:55

And the moral of this thread is.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

That's wiki for you.

In saying I personally think the build does "support" physical players, it's just not made specifically for melee, works better with casters, and can obviously be optimized and tweaked if physical classes want to use it.

I don't see them wanting to post every unsaid variation or possibility as valid criticism.

Wiki builds are often basic core ideas that don't cover all the bases but I don't think we should expect them too.The player shouldn't have to be spoon feed logical adaption of generic builds to suit their individual needs or play style.

Daesu · Feb 18, 2009, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

I agree it's to much for my liking although your assuming it's implementation as well, of course you would adapt the build and play style if your a Warrior.

[skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]"You Move Like a Dwarf!"[/skill][skill]"Finish Him!"[/skill] are all that's really needed to be effective.

A cover hex is situational imho and [skill]Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support[/skill] is just there if you can afford it as stated:

It sucks if your going to 12345 spam every time a mob drops but then, especially as a Warrior, your playing badly anyway.

Also don't discount that any physical who uses Discordway extensively would be foolish to stand around in their standard gear, holding an unused weapon, with 20-30 energy if they decide on using a caller build like the example given.

A cheap suit of max armor modded out and a +15 staff easily nets over 40 energy on any class, just switch it out.

Integrate [skill]Blood Ritual[/skill] on one of the heroes if your still struggling and your good to go.

Not overly practical imo but it works.

It is just not worth it, even with your changes there are still big issues. Just go with the already more effective build called sabway, kill faster, no fuss, problem solved.

It's wiki, where it will always be political, no wonder sab avoided posting her build there and someone had to post it there for her. Let them suck all they want. This thread serves no purpose.

daze · Feb 18, 2009, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

This thread serves no purpose.

Agreed, especially with false claims like this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

sabway, kill faster, no fuss, problem solved.

Sabway offers a bit more survivability and comfort to the most noobish of players. But in no way can it kill faster then a well built Discordway team.

Daesu · Feb 18, 2009, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

But in no way can it kill faster then a well built Discordway team.

Sure it does, it kills faster than Igor's discordway-for-noobs wiki build. We can continue this back and forth for a few more posts before someone finally gives up and closes it.

There is no point in continuing this since you turned down my in-game damage challenge. Also, even though I proved that sabway has more damage through math, you rejected it outright saying it is not practical. So what is there more to say in this thread, except to go around in circles again.

daze · Feb 18, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Sure it does, it kills faster than your discordway-for-noobs build. We can continue this back and forth for a few more posts before someone finally gives up and closes it.

I didnt say that sabway was noobish. I said that it is perfect for noobs. meaining it works at its fullest potential while you have GW minimized. Discord you actually have to be calling targets to make it 100%

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

There is no point in continuing this since you turned down my damage challenge. Even though I can prove that sabway has more damage using math, you rejected it outright.

I prefer the real time challenge. FoW run, My discordway, to your sabway. And you are the ONLY person who is claiming that sabway actually kills faster than discordway. So far there is the majority of the GW community saying that discordway kills faster than sabway. Then you have you standing along with a silly troll of a claim that sabway actually stomps through mobs faster.

if you are so sure that sabway kills faster, then try to find someone in here to back up your words. I would wager all my ectos that most people would say the same thing as Igor, Firefly, and Me.

Daesu · Feb 18, 2009, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

I prefer the real time challenge. FoW run, My discordway, to your sabway. And you are the ONLY person who is claiming that sabway actually kills faster than discordway. So far there is the majority of the GW community saying that discordway kills faster than sabway. Then you have you standing along with a silly troll of a claim that sabway actually stomps through mobs faster.

I said sabway kills faster than a poorly designed discordway. And you know henchies cant enter FoW so why bother when comparing with a triple necro build?

Many people actually prefer sabway after looking at that failed discordway build in the wiki. Just in case you dont know which specific build I am referring to:

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Discord_Spam

Not all discordway sucks but this one certainly does. Learn to read the title of this thread before responding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

if you are so sure that sabway kills faster, then try to find someone in here to back up your words. I would wager all my ectos that most people would say the same thing as Igor, Firefly, and Me.

Except that most of us, including Firefly, thinks that build sucks. Go read the first page of this thread before you answer. Who else is supporting that build except you and the authors?

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

My discordway, to your sabway.

If your discordway is the same as what is on that wiki build, then it sucks too. Why dont you use that exact build and we will compare with sabway.

daze · Feb 18, 2009, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I said sabway kills faster than a poorly designed discordway from the wiki. And you know henchies cant enter FoW so why bother comparing with sabway?

Then obviously im speaking of 6 hero sab vs 6 hero discord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Many people actually prefer sabway after looking at that failed discordway build in the wiki. Just in case you dont know which specific build I am referring to:

Im aware of that version of discordway, i wouldnt run it exactly how it is posted and i wouldnt expect anybody else to. It is a very weak version of discordway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Except that most of us, including Firefly, thinks that build sucks. Go read the first page of this thread before you answer.

Already have read it, and it has been determined since the title of this thread that PvX discordway needs to be fixed. I have never debated the fact that PvX wiki needs to be fixed. And if you actually read earlier in this thread, i even offered some suggestions to fix the sloppy pvx build. But my point remains valid. A proper discord team is faster than a proper sab team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If your discordway is the same as what is on that wiki build, then it sucks too. Why dont you use that build and we will compare?

Once again, read the earlier pages of this thread before you post silly stuff like this. I have provided on multiple pages of this specific thread the precise discord team build that i use. And for the last time, i have never been debating that the PvX wiki build doesnt need to be changed. I already covered that point waaay earlier in this thread.

Daesu · Feb 18, 2009, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Then obviously im speaking of 6 hero sab vs 6 hero discord.

Then you just admitted to going OT. I dont think sab ever posted a 6 hero version of her build, and we are discussing that over the wiki build of course.

Quote:

Im aware of that version of discordway, i wouldnt run it exactly how it is posted and i wouldnt expect anybody else to.

That is what we are talking about isn't it? How to modify and improve on it.

Quote:

It is a very weak version of discordway.

Isn't that what we have been saying all along?

Quote:

A proper discord team is faster than a proper sab team.

Maybe you just have not read my other posts in this forum supporting discordway over sabway.

Quote:

Once again, read the earlier pages of this thread before you post silly stuff like this. I have provided on multiple pages of this specific thread the precise discord team build that i use. And for the last time, i have never been debating that the PvX wiki build doesnt need to be changed. I already covered that point waaay earlier in this thread.

Then why did you interject when I was debating with Igor (one of the authors)?

I still think that a good discordway does not need to force the warrior or physical damage character to play like a caster. A good discordway would synergize around the character's build rather than forcing the character into a particular build template/playstyle because each character class has its own strengths and weaknesses.

There are very few build authors that I respect in this forum, like Sab and Shaz, and it so happens all of them recognize the power of splinter weapon in their builds.

People have made splinter weapon discordway work with physical damage characters all along in this forum (e.g. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10321473), until Igor posted his wiki build recommending warriors to hold staves to use discordway and confusing other's views on what discordway is.

daze · Feb 18, 2009, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Then you just admitted to going OT. I dont think sab ever posted a 6 hero version of her build, and we are discussing that over the wiki build of course.

Not Off topic. Suggesting the PvX implement a 6 hero version of the team is totally on topic. Earlier in this thread i made such a suggestion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

That is what we are talking about isn't it? How to modify and improve on it.

That has already been covered thoroughly in the first 10 pages of this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Isn't that what we have been saying all along?

Well, then we are obviously arguing over the same side of an issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Maybe you just have not read my other posts in this forum supporting discordway over sabway.

maybe i should

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Then why did you interject when I was debating with Igor (one of the authors)?

The only thing that i didnt agree with was you saying that melee can call targets as fast as a caster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I still think that a good discordway does not need to force the warrior or physical damage character to play like a caster. A good discordway would synergize around the character's build rather than forcing the character into a particular build template/playstyle because each character class has its own strengths and weaknesses.

Sure, that is why a good discordway is 6 heros big. That way its not so important that you pack your own bar full of hexes and conditions. 3 hero discord is nice but to make it work well, you really need to be able to mark targets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

There are very few build authors that I respect in this forum, like Sab and Shaz, and all them recognize the power of splinter weapon in their builds.

I have no problem with [[splinter weapon] but since only a couple professions would even benefit from using it, i dont think it should be in the pvx wiki. With me playing as an ele, i have ZERO use for splinter weapon. And since that it has been determined that discordway is more of a caster friendly build, it just adds to my point that splinter weapon be considered merely as optional.

I still run this 6 hero discord team. the only difference now is that my curser bar is changed and the hex remove healer bar has changed a bit. Ive swapped [[meekness] for [[shadow of fear], [[mark of pain] for [[barbs], added [[enfeebling blood], and balanced the healer bar by taking out [[spotless soul] for [[spotless mind] and removed [[rebirth] from the healer. I also balanced out the attributes a bit. And yes i still use BR, on my MM as a safety net energy management tool

[build=Curser with shambling;OAhkUsG6hGGUMTVlColA70uzRVyF]
[build=Hex remove heal;OANDUrptSxMVVKgGNTftERgyEA]
[build=Minion master;OABDQatmSxMVVVBoBLCKVJgdCA]
[build=Prot with shambling;OANDUrpvSxMVVKgHVBE1D3VyEA]
[build=Restore life;OAhjUoGYIPxsqaGbcKNHmTuLGA]
[build=Restore recovery;OAhjUoGYIPxsqKxjaLNHmTuLGA]

Daesu · Feb 18, 2009, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Not Off topic. Suggesting the PvX implement a 6 hero version of the team is totally on topic. Earlier in this thread i made such a suggestion.

Bah! I dont think I need to hear it when it is the wiki. Do you know that even the so-called updated version of Sab's build on the wiki (which Sab has nothing to do with, of course), is actually worse than Sab's original build in this forum? Go figure.

Quote:

The only thing that i didnt agree with was you saying that melee can call targets as fast as a caster.

If you are worried about discord spam speed, just bind them to key presses and they would be spammed even when using a melee. Binding them to key presses is always faster anyway.

Quote:

Sure, that is why a good discordway is 6 heros big. That way its not so important that you pack your own bar full of hexes and conditions. 3 hero discord is nice but to make it work well, you really need to be able to mark targets.

Not everybody has an extra account. Even though I have 2 accounts, I still prefer to take henchies when playing with both accounts at the same time. Why? So I can just leave the other character afk and leech. 7-man H/H team is more than enough for me for most HM situations. And I dont have much patience waiting for people to join up.

Quote:

I have no problem with [[splinter weapon] but since only a couple professions would even benefit from using it, i dont think it should be in the pvx wiki. With me playing as an ele, i have ZERO use for splinter weapon. And since that it has been determined that discordway is more of a caster friendly build, it just adds to my point that splinter weapon be considered merely as optional.

Let me say right now that I have different discord team builds for different characters. My discord build for casters is quite different from my discord build for physical damage characters. Even between physical damage characters their discord build are a little different. Similarly for my casters.

Nobody says they MUST all be the same. But if you want to post on the wiki and claim it suitable for general X/A then recommending 40e skill bar for the first 5 skills, be prepared for some tough questions.

You probably wont need the BR much with minions and SoLS, but that is ok for a caster character support.

daze · Feb 18, 2009, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Bah! I dont think I need to hear it when it is the wiki. Do you know that even the so-called updated version of Sab's build on the wiki (which Sab has nothing to do with, of course), is actually worse than Sab's original build in this forum? Go figure.

If you are worried about discord spam speed, just bind them to key presses and they would be spammed even when using a melee. Binding them to key presses is always faster anyway.

Let me say right now that I have different discord team builds for different characters. My discord build for casters is quite different from my discord build for physical damage characters. Even between physical damage characters their discord build are a little different. Similarly for my casters.

Nobody says they MUST all be the same. But if you want to post on the wiki and claim it suitable for general X/A then recommending 40e skill bar for the first 5 skills, be prepared for some tough questions.

You probably wont need the BR much with minions and SoLS, but that is ok for a caster character support.

Frankly, i have to say that i agree with everything you said.

except for this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Not everybody has an extra account. Even though I have 2 accounts, I still prefer to take henchies when playing with both accounts at the same time. Why? So I can just leave the other character afk and leech. 7-man H/H team is more than enough for me for most HM situations. And I dont have much patience waiting for people to join up.

6 hero discord just kills things too fast to settle with henchies. At the least, id rather map out on account #2 then let the 6 heroes follow my main guy.

But still, adding a 6 hero team build to PvX wouldnt require you to have 2 accounts. When i do DoA and FoW and stuff with my guildies and friends, we just half and half the 6 heroes. He brings 3 and i bring the other 3

Daenara · Feb 18, 2009, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Pretty sure this thread has run it's course. If anyone has specific, intelligent questions about variants of discord, please feel free to post.