Curse

Problem. · Nov 19, 2008, 12:57 AM // 00:57

you dont need hex removal when you have sooo many minions.... and i just dont feel like slotting dwaynas sorrow

Super Igor · Nov 19, 2008, 12:43 PM // 12:43

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Originally Posted by Problem.

I didn't ask for your opinion. It works for me cuz I play monk primary. I dont need all those protection skills.

But you havent said anything about a monk in your post, so my argument was viable. If you are using something with the build that changes it, say it right away instead of using it as an argument for a flame later.

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You have the same amount of hexes I have, except, *gasp*, one hex that has an adjacent range.

That hex is x the ammount of foes effected so you end up having more hexes.

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Guess what, barbs is the same recharge, and it takes advantage of the fact that I have a lot of minions....Jagged minions are also really good at speading more condis. And as far as attributes go, there is one guy with a 12 spec death magic, which if im not mistaken, is a 10 pt dmg difference b/t 14 death.

Barbs is zzzz, not that you rely on your minions as main source of damage. Jaggies are nice, both their toughness and recharge that doesnt distract your discording but I liked how fast you can make a 16 minion army with two bone minions.

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*edit* i was resisting demolishing your post...but im going to.

You have failed to do so tbh.

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weak att spreads? if you add up all my dmg from discord from my 3 necros, they will equal whatever amount of dmg you do with you necros cuz i have the main MM specced at 16 (assuming you are at 14 a pop). and i use that ward that increases dmg, so discord + barbs are doing more dmg.

Yea, only time you use a superior rune is when theres a complete MM which d-way doesnt have so health loss isnt worth it, sups are bad most of the time. Again, you havent mentioned anything about the ward so using it as an argument is stupid, not to mention that I can use a ward too, anyone can use tbh.
Im at 14, but my guys have more hp and armor which is better.

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skills distributed badly? are you serious?

Yeah, too many minion spells, weak healing, weaken armor on a resto...lolwut...sols, you should be killing fast enough to have enough energy, its health gain is zzzz.

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overkill on minions? o hi my name is barbs and i get placed on targets with the potential of having 19 minions hitting me + two warriors. and guess what, my minions will stay alive longer than yours with the potential of popping more death novas....

Barbs doesnt prove the need to have bone minions and shambling horrors, just an ovekill knowing that you can slot many skills in there. I end up with full 18 minion army that takes advantage of barbs that get replcing rip just fine, why replace rip? Because I play a sin ofcourse.

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no dwaynas sorrow? i used to run with that b4, but i felt it was too ineffective. if i have a partner with me, ill have him slot it, but i dont need it, and again, im a primary monk and im most likely going to use lod.

DS is ossum, especially with high ammount of minions, neglecting it is stupid.

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you dont need hex removal when you have sooo many minions

Yea bacuase minions remove hexes, sure.

BrettM · Nov 19, 2008, 02:48 PM // 14:48

I've been following this thread with great interest, as a dispassionate observer who does not yet have three necros to his name and hopes to learn a thing or two about necro builds from the debate. But, given that the thread has now reached several pages without a proposal that everyone agrees upon, do you really think you can fix PvX? Just asking.

Super Igor · Nov 19, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Well, the only person who actually started to do anything on pvx discord is me.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 20, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

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Originally Posted by Daesu

With 6 Discords you are already pumped up in the damage department, I would rather work on my defensive capabilities with those skill slots than to waste them on extra DNs. Not having enough damage should be the least your worries with 6 discords. Surviving in a tough area when your minions are all dead would be more useful.

Well, I don't know about you but 1 extra death nova makes enemies drop quicker, which results in a better defense. The best defense is a strong offense. If I can kill even 1 extra monster (generally it's more like 2-4 extra monsters) quicker with 1 extra death nova, then that means there are less monsters able to attack or cast harmful spells. If more than 1 death nova is not your cup of tea don't run it, but in the areas where I have run it it was a lot more effective in providing extra damage and a stronger defense through quicker kills. It did more for my party than a hex remover or a heal would have done in the same spot.

Minions don't remove hexes, but they absorb hexes just like damage. In pve, a minion wall is best at taking aoe hexes and spells away from party members. I would rather have a single minion spell in slot over a single hex remover as long as I can actually use it.

A minion has the potential to prevent/ absorb hundreds of damage and multiple hexes and spells. A hex remover has the potential to remove x amount of super harmful hexes and may have a slight heal. However heroes can't use hex removers worth a damn, so they usually end up spamming it on any hex you receive.

This is all personal preference, so if you share my preference then feel free to use my ideas. If you don't, then don't use them. I don't want to defend my choices any more, I just stated my opinions as to my ways of using the skills and if you don't agree that's fine.

I just want to keep this thread clear of arguments and on track by giving people multiple ways of using their discords.

daze · Nov 20, 2008, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

The best defense is a strong offense.

I have a friend who says the same thing. I cant seem to remember his name....
Oh yeah his name is LEEEEROOOY JENKINS the mending wammo with [frenzy][healing signet]

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Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Minions don't remove hexes, but they absorb hexes just like damage. In pve, a minion wall is best at taking aoe hexes and spells away from party members. I would rather have a single minion spell in slot over a single hex remover as long as I can actually use it.

A minion has the potential to prevent/ absorb hundreds of damage and multiple hexes and spells. A hex remover has the potential to remove x amount of super harmful hexes and may have a slight heal. However heroes can't use hex removers worth a damn, so they usually end up spamming it on any hex you receive.

In my experience, minions do more melee blocking than spell absorbing. Simply because minions don't initiate aggro. You do. The first person that spell casters usually lock on to is whoever catches their attention first. In fact, minions usually don't even move in front of the minion master until after a few seconds. Its a good theory to say that minions absorb the majority of hexes or spells, Or at least it would be a good theory if you didn't have common sense to get in your way.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 20, 2008, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

I have a friend who says the same thing. I cant seem to remember his name....
Oh yeah his name is LEEEEROOOY JENKINS

In my experience, minions do more melee blocking than spell absorbing. Simply because minions don't initiate aggro. You do. The first person that spell casters usually lock on to is whoever catches their attention first. In fact, minions usually don't even move in front of the minion master until after a few seconds. Its a good theory to say that minions absorb the majority of hexes or spells, Or at least it would be a good theory if you didn't have common sense to get in your way.

Leeroy jenkins remark has nothing to do with that, so thanks for making absolutely no sense and having no effective counter as to why you disagreed with me

If you could instant kill a whole mob you'd never need a healer. The faster you kill the less healing you'll need is generally a true fact. The stronger and quicker the damage, the less damage you'll end up taking.

Your experience with minions getting stuck on melee is because your most likely only running 2-3 minion spells correct? My guess would be 1 bone minions and shambling horror on your bomber (with death nova on a different character) and then 1 shambling horror by itself?

With me, I have 4 different characters with their own minions. That means when melee rushes into range, usually the 4-6 shamblings/jaggeds from my 2 cursers go block them, then the 12-16+ bone minions each aggro seperately which results in casters and melee being death nova'd and attacked. So I guess that's another advantage about having more than 2 characters with minions, they don't all clump up and focus on melee only at least when I ran around vanquishing all the kurzick areas I noticed that they didn't clump up like that.

So, what I wrote worked for me, but if it doesn't work for you when you run less minions and 1 death nova, then please try not to state how it fails or doesn't work because that would be dependant on the build your running and doesn't pertain to using more minions and an extra death nova.

I do understand we initiate aggro, but were also knocking down enemies (with an ap nuker) and resulting in interrupts and summoning vanguard sins (again a generic pve skill for most discordways) which results in another "minion" who's attacking and taking away monsters attention.)

If you truly need hex removers with the exception of very difficult hex areas (such as fow) then I would suggest trying to find another way to keep you alive without relying on dumb hero ai in prioritizing hex removal. Because they are never reliable, unless you plan to micro every single hex remover you bring.

daze · Nov 20, 2008, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Leeroy jenkins remark has nothing to do with that, so thanks for making absolutely no sense and having no effective counter as to why you disagreed with me

If you could instant kill a whole mob you'd never need a healer. The faster you kill the less healing you'll need is generally a true fact. The stronger and quicker the damage, the less damage you'll end up taking.

Relax Guy. I was just having fun with that cliched line of "The best defense is a good offense" and it made me think of the fact that it is the kind of thing a mending wammo would use to defend his [frenzy][healing signet] after being called a noob.

At least you have a firm grasp of the obvious, because it it true. "If you could instant kill a whole mob you would never need a healer." You also wouldn't have a game.

And still the fact remains that casters usually target the players while minions block the melee. You could have 8 minion masters with 80 minions and they would still sit behind the party for few seconds until melee reached their range while the casters are sending spells your way.

Im not arguing with the fact that minions probably absorb a couple spells and a couple hexes, but not near enough to call them a viable sponge for spells.

Super Igor · Nov 20, 2008, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Relax Guy. I was just having fun with that cliched line of "The best defense is a good offense" and it made me think of the fact that it is the kind of thing a mending wammo would use to defend his [frenzy][healing signet] after being called a noob.

GG Trolling.

Daze is right though, one extra death nova wont do a thing, having a single copy is enough too keep your minions esploding.

Also melee is much more sensitive to armor and health, so yeah it gets stuck on minions and spirits all the time, much more often than casters do. Although minion wall is still effective against aoe combined with dwayna's sorrow.

Vann Borakul · Nov 28, 2008, 12:53 PM // 12:53

This is the one I made a few days ago.

[build=OAhjUwGYoSxMVBKgNbTOUbDTVVA] 16 Death, 9 Soul, 10 Rest

[build=OAhkUsG5BFqTMjdaHa2Tux5wUAA] 13 Death, 10 Soul, 10 Rest, 4 Curses

[build=OANDUslfSxMVBHVKgoBBE1DVVA] 16 Death, 10 Soul, 9 Prot

syphonus · Nov 29, 2008, 01:48 AM // 01:48

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Originally Posted by Vann Borakul

This is the one I made a few days ago.

[build=OAhjUwGYoSxMVBKgNbTOUbDTVVA] 16 Death, 9 Soul, 10 Rest

[build=OAhkUsG5BFqTMjdaHa2Tux5wUAA] 13 Death, 10 Soul, 10 Rest, 4 Curses

[build=OANDUslfSxMVBHVKgoBBE1DVVA] 16 Death, 10 Soul, 9 Prot

too much healing imo. i'd drop the resto skills off the second guy and add things like [weaken armor][reckless haste][mark of pain].

also, one copy of [putrid bile] is enough i think.

Super Igor · Nov 30, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vann Borakul

This is the one I made a few days ago.

[build=OAhjUwGYoSxMVBKgNbTOUbDTVVA] 16 Death, 9 Soul, 10 Rest

[build=OAhkUsG5BFqTMjdaHa2Tux5wUAA] 13 Death, 10 Soul, 10 Rest, 4 Curses

[build=OANDUslfSxMVBHVKgoBBE1DVVA] 16 Death, 10 Soul, 9 Prot

Prettty horrible tbh. Sup rune overkill, no condition removal, no barbs, meekness, no sorrow.

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Originally Posted by syphonus

too much healing imo. i'd drop the resto skills off the second guy and add things like [weaken armor][reckless haste][mark of pain].

also, one copy of [putrid bile] is enough i think.

Mmm, none of these ideas are good tbh. MoP- long recharge, Reckless - SoF is better for d-way, weaken armor - what for your damage ignores armor and no one putrid bile is not enough.

syphonus · Nov 30, 2008, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Mmm, none of these ideas are good tbh. MoP- long recharge, Reckless - SoF is better for d-way, weaken armor - what for your damage ignores armor and no one putrid bile is not enough.

Long recharge isn't really an issue for MoP when the idea is for him to be spamming [discord]. The rest are there as AoE cover hexes that still have some use. [Mark of pain] is there for scattering mobs; [weaken armor] is there because I usually have [ebon vanguard assassin support] on my bar, [reckless haste] is there to take some pressure off healers. All of it's secondary but it keeps condition/hex removers busy. he already had enfeebling-- which is the only really necessary curse aoe condition dealer imo-- but at 4 spec. Doesn't feel like enough to me.

Super Igor · Dec 03, 2008, 05:51 PM // 17:51

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Originally Posted by syphonus

Long recharge isn't really an issue for MoP when the idea is for him to be spamming [discord].

It really is, dont be bad.
MoP will be cast on a foe that is going to be killed in a matter of seconds before MoP could do any significant harm making it a waste of skill slot with d-way.

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It's there for the same reason as the others, to provide AoE cover hexes that still have some use.

MoP is not aoe hex.

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[Mark of pain] is there for scattering mobs;

Why the phuck?

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[weaken armor] is there because I usually have [ebon vanguard assassin support] on my bar

Weaken armor is pointless when you deal armor ignoring damage. Might be useful to raise minion damage but no way to make EVAS hit harder.

On a side note, EVAS is crap.

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[reckless haste] is there to take some pressure off healers.

[shadow of fear]

Aoe hex, fast recharge, reduces dps almost the same, lower energy cost.

See no point taking RH without SS in pve.

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All of it's secondary but it keeps condition/hex removers busy. he already had enfeebling-- which is the only really necessary curse aoe condition dealer imo-- but at 4 spec. Doesn't feel like enough to me.

Well your suggestions are kind of bad for making condition/hex removers busy.

Pocketmancer · Dec 04, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Actually, Igor, I wouldn't say EVAS is crap but only because with Assassin's Promise, you can recharge it rather quickly and have multiple assassins out (I've had about four out at once as my record). Four Assassins can pile up damage on your non-targetted foes. However, in place of EVAS, there are better PvE skills to use.

Since "You Move Like a Dwarf" is one of the standard skills, that's 1 out of 3. "Finish Him!" is also great to nail down onto the bar as pointed out by other people already. That's 2 out of 3.

My pick would probably remain as Pain Inverter mostly because some bosses (anything with Searing Flames for example) just plain rape you if you don't cast that thing on them. Discordway doesn't kill fast enough to prevent them from hitting your party and grandma with 400 points of damage and then burning. :V

syphonus · Dec 06, 2008, 09:54 PM // 21:54

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Originally Posted by Super Igor

MoP is not aoe hex.

Oops- fixed.

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Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

Actually, Igor, I wouldn't say EVAS is crap but only because with Assassin's Promise, you can recharge it rather quickly and have multiple assassins out (I've had about four out at once as my record). Four Assassins can pile up damage on your non-targetted foes.

what he said. also having multiple sins out makes for a great meat shield.

Nightow · Dec 06, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Also seconding what Pocketmancer said. EVAS + minions makes for one of the best meat shields. Good for soaking up plenty of damage.

Darkside · Dec 08, 2008, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Here's my variation on sabway...and yes I still call it sabway because despite the fact that the elite's on all the nec hero's is discord the principle of the build is based on effective synergy and the absurd e-management of soul reaping.

[build=OAhkUwG4hGKTMDRMGsDfidXVN5C] 12 Death, 10+2(12) Curses, 8+1(9) Soul Reaping

Shadow of Fear/Meakness for an AoE hex and Parasitic Bond (Which is essentially a useless curse) but has a quick recharge making it easy to spam. Enfeeble Blood is very useful for two obvious reasons, anti-melee as well as it's AoE. Weaken Armor like Parasitic bond isn't really that great but has a fairly quick recharge making it easy to spread conditions around. Finally, rip enchantment for those times you need to remove a key enchantment.

This hero is the one that people can play around with the most; you can throw on whatever curses you like as long as you make sure that you can satisfy the conditions for discord.

[build=OAhjUsGWIPxsMm0cyNMHnV1kLA] 11+1(12) Death, 6+3(9) Soul Reaping, 12 Rest

Basically, the sabway healer with discord added on. I see very little reason to change any skills on this bar as it's pretty good.

[build=OANDUslfOxsqAeAN86CI1jqK] 12+4(16) Death, 9+1(10) Soul Reaping, 9 Protection Prayers

Again, this is basically the sabway minion bomber but with discord as it's elite.

What's good about this build is that you as the leader of the party don't necessarily need to bring along hexes or conditions the heroes will spread hexes and conditions themselves allowing you do run whatever you want. The only real weakness of the build that I see is the lack of hex removal, but like sab I tend to believe most hex's are weak and it's easier to just heal through them. In times where I absolutely want to bring hex removal I generally add it to the curse nec's bar.

Floski · Dec 08, 2008, 07:49 AM // 07:49

I use defile instead of pbond on my curse nec. But I use weaken armor and enfeebling also. 2 aoe condies ftw. and both are really useful.

I would also say putrid bile is really good on all 3 necs. Those things popping one after another, reminds me almost of edge bombing. It's really good if you're playing a warrior who knows how to pull and tank so they're all balled up nice for you.

Putrid flesh is also really nice for another aoe condy that spreads itself and does good degen damage. To be honest, I replaced botm with putrid bile and ext. with putrid flesh. Foulfeast on my healer necro makes ext kinda dumb. Also, Dwayna's > protspirit/aegis for me, but that's my personal preference. I also put bloodsong on my curse necro for another spirit that does minimal damage, lasts a long time, and drops another condy every mbos cast. It's pretty ok for me.

The only necro that has energy problems for me is the mm. Spamming death nova, discord, and minions all the time really drains him. Plus putrid flesh/bile are 10 energy each and he uses them constantly. Meh.

Super Igor · Dec 13, 2008, 12:20 PM // 12:20

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Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

Actually, Igor, I wouldn't say EVAS is crap but only because with Assassin's Promise, you can recharge it rather quickly and have multiple assassins out (I've had about four out at once as my record). Four Assassins can pile up damage on your non-targetted foes. However, in place of EVAS, there are better PvE skills to use.

Where did I say that its crap without assassins promise? o___O

I said that it is generally crap because in most cases they switch targets after using one of their skills so you end up with random single target damage which kinda sucks. :P