Curse

daze · Nov 17, 2008, 11:13 AM // 11:13

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Originally Posted by upier

This is what I always get stuck on.
Any reason why run Purge AND Spotless if you can just run Dismiss?

Good point you have there. I was only looking in the healing prayers line but dismiss words with no points in prot.

Daesu · Nov 17, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

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Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

You seem to get too focused on individual instances. You seem to think that the hero can only death nova and all your damage is coming from the minions. Your forgetting that most of your damage is coming from the fact your spiking down enemies within 3-5 seconds for each death.

Correct and I was just pointing out the fact that your damage emphasis should be on Discord spiking, not minions or death nova. Death nova damage is unreliable and whatever damage it gives out, you can do better with your 6 discord anyway. I only look at DN from a poison condition perspective, to support discord.

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As ap nukers, you usually focus on monks/ harmful casters and let the enemy melee focus on your minions and all your newly created corpses are summoning even more minions to attack the casters left over.

True, and newly created minions need you to cast DN again (2s/minion). Which is another why DN damage is unreliable, and you would do better to just focus on Discord spiking. AP also demands that you spike down a specific target to recharge your awesome pve skills and get energy back.

Melee minion positions and DN damage is unreliable in battle, so your initial DN maybe hurting their afflicted warriors when you should be spiking down the afflicted ritualist, who has a res, in the back line first. And that ritualist target probably has your AP in the beginning of the fight, not the afflicted warrior.

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By the time you nuke all the harmful casters and healers, the melee has died on it's own by death novas on the minions. Not every minion will get stuck on melee when you have 18+ minions.

I usually leave the melee last and kill the more dangerous monks, ritualist, mesmers, and elementalist. These backline casters are usually the ones with the perm res and heals. DN only kills the melee, but Discord is able to kill the caster that you need to kill first.

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When you have 2 sets of minions and an army of about 16+ the odds of all of them being blocked by melee is almost impossible. Unless there is an area where corpses are too small or not at all, minions and death nova are pretty much required for their potential and effectiveness in every situation.

You shouldn't always assume that or you would be relying too much on minions. First of all, you cant have many minions when you started out. Second, minions do die off over time when mobs are placed too far out. Third, minions are susceptible to AoE damage and the amount of exploitable corpses depends on the area.

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If they weren't worth the trouble of sometimes having them not work effectively (such as ele nuking them all before they get in range) then everyone wouldn't be using them.

There are reasons why Sab didn't go for a dual MM build when someone suggested that it would be more effective. She wanted sabway to be less reliant on minions and still be effective in low corpse areas, afterall it is a generic build so the build has to be generic enough to also work well in low corpse areas.

When you are posting a generic build, the more fool proof it is (i.e. fewer customizing needed across areas), the more popular it would be. This is why sabway was so popular, even though dual MM would have been more effective in many areas. I am sure there would be some people who would use your dual MM build in low corpse areas and complain about the build's effectiveness, if you set it up as a generic build.

Super Igor · Nov 17, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

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Originally Posted by daze

That is the great thing about discordway, even builds like this can work. Although it is far from optimal.. just off the top of my head, id say too many minions and not enough hex/condition removal. I use a 6 hero discordway with 1 [[animate bone minions] and 2 [[animate shambling horror]s and i have yet to EVER have 30 minions at a time usually its about 20. Also it might be better to swap out one of the [[weapon of warding] for [[vengeful weapon]. And [[enfeebling blood] is a good skill

But it just looks like you mirrored all 3 builds which just seems like the lazy way to do things. (no offense)

Have to agree with daze, four mm's is way too much, one animate bone minions for ds food and two shambling horrors to exploit stuff faster and make your wall tougher, they are good with teir long racharge, dont let too much guys spend too much time on 3 sec cast stuff which is bad, also i doubt you would ever go to an area and have ~40 minions all the time, one main mm and tewo supplimentary mms is another story...

Also completely agree on enfeebling you must have it but dont agree on veng because lolwut there is no point in it you have enough heal, its life steal wont do much difference because things die before they even hit and there is dual wow and weapon of shadow who are very very sexy.

Also you build knight, lacks hex removal, wastes two characters on death nova, has two copies of prot spirit and soa which is a bit overkill, no, it is far from efficient, and considering you have synched them to an extent you can aswell synch them fully.

Also daze got better at this game it seems, well done daze, I am surprised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

[build=Curser with shambling;OAhkUsG6hGGUMTVlColA70uzRVyF]
[build=Hex remove heal;OANDUrptSxMVVKgGNTftERgyEA]as an alternative if you are expecting lots of nasty hexes *ahem* FoW *ahem*[divert [email protected]][signet of lost [email protected]][signet of [email protected]][signet of [email protected]][dwaynas [email protected]][cure [email protected]][dismiss condition][restore [email protected]]
[build=Minion master;OABDQatmSxMVVVBoBLCKVJgdCA]
[build=Prot with shambling;OANDUrpvSxMVVKgHVBE1D3VyEA]
[build=Restore life;OAhjUoGYIPxsqaGbcKNHmTuLGA]
[build=Restore recovery;OAhjUoGYIPxsqKxjaLNHmTuLGA]

[divert [email protected]][signet of lost [email protected]][signet of [email protected]][signet of [email protected]][dwaynas [email protected]][cure [email protected]][dismiss condition][restore [email protected]] ----- 12 Healing prayers.... 12+1+2 soul reaping (you can even kick the non elite hex/condition removals for stuff like [healing ring] to keep your minions from popping too fast.)

Why are you using meekness and mop? Also why dont you put divert hexes on you protection guy and why arent you using enfeebling blood? Another thing is that as far as I know having loads of minion spells in fow is not good.

I mean, it would be much more efficient to have shambling horror cucked on someone else and enfeebling blood given to the curses guy, you lack conditions abit atm.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 17, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Correct and I was just pointing out the fact that your damage emphasis should be on Discord spiking, not minions or death nova. Death nova damage is unreliable and whatever damage it gives out, you can do better with your 6 discord anyway. I only look at DN from a poison condition perspective, to support discord.

True, and newly created minions need you to cast DN again (2s/minion). Which is another why DN damage is unreliable, and you would do better to just focus on Discord spiking. AP also demands that you spike down a specific target to recharge your awesome pve skills and get energy back.

Melee minion positions and DN damage is unreliable in battle, so your initial DN maybe hurting their afflicted warriors when you should be spiking down the afflicted ritualist, who has a res, in the back line first. And that ritualist target probably has your AP in the beginning of the fight, not the afflicted warrior.

I usually leave the melee last and kill the more dangerous monks, ritualist, mesmers, and elementalist. These backline casters are usually the ones with the perm res and heals. DN only kills the melee, but Discord is able to kill the caster that you need to kill first.

You shouldn't always assume that or you would be relying too much on minions. First of all, you cant have many minions when you started out. Second, minions do die off over time when mobs are placed too far out. Third, minions are susceptible to AoE damage and the amount of exploitable corpses depends on the area.

There are reasons why Sab didn't go for a dual MM build when someone suggested that it would be more effective. She wanted sabway to be less reliant on minions and still be effective in low corpse areas, afterall it is a generic build so the build has to be generic enough to also work well in low corpse areas.

When you are posting a generic build, the more fool proof it is (i.e. fewer customizing needed across areas), the more popular it would be. This is why sabway was so popular, even though dual MM would have been more effective in many areas. I am sure there would be some people who would use your dual MM build in low corpse areas and complain about the build's effectiveness, if you set it up as a generic build.

I am sorry, but you just never seem to get anything I try to say. They set up death novas, before the battle initiates, that means it is FREE DAMAGE. Whether or not it effectively hits the mobs is up to ai, but the fact is it's free damage and most of the time when I used it, it worked just fine.

They do focus on discord when enemies are under the requirement, they don't sit there the entire battle only using death nova. Death nova does not only hit melee, because unless your fighting against 3-6 melee at a time, or do not have as many minions up (which you already stated you don't run with 4 minion spells as I do) they do not all get stuck on the melee.

Found it funny that he said 4 minion masters are overkill(dazed), then his build is the exact same just minus 1 set of bone minions. Anyways, if you don't kill quick enough or have the ability to make use of 4 minion spells, don't use them. I dunno about most people but I make use of them just fine and my extra bonus damage from death novas (for free) because it's a long last enchant that can be cast as I am prepping the target is what makes me able to keep a constant stream of corpses to use.

The reason sabway can't focus on more minions, is because that'd involve another jagged bomber and hoping that they would utilize the minions for damage, not utility. In discord, no character is just a minion bomber, or just a healer or just a curse necro. They all do 90+ armor ignoring damage with discord. I could use the default discord I posted earlier, in hardmode against the elusive golemancer (where there are no corpses) and it'd still kill everything as fast as another optimal discordway set up for no minions.

Multiple minion spells are only good if you can kill fast. If you can't, then that's your fault and thus you don't use them. But for the few people who actually try dual death novas, you should realize that you can summon more minions than your heroes can use. But that's a personal preference. Adding an extra minion spell or 2 does not reduce the effectiveness of the build in any way.

Because in the end, they all discord and anything besides discord,healing and a hex/condition is a utility, not a requirement.

Super Igor · Nov 17, 2008, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I am sorry, but you just never seem to get anything I try to say. They set up death novas, before the battle initiates, that means it is FREE DAMAGE. Whether or not it effectively hits the mobs is up to ai, but the fact is it's free damage and most of the time when I used it, it worked just fine.

Waiting for them to death nova stuff before battle = slow. Discordway = fast. I am saying this because when minion bombing isnt your primary focus i wouldnt utilise that many skills on it and just steamroll thru pve so they will usually end up casting death nova mid battle on minions with lowest health. This means that you are much better off with just one guy wasting two seconds on nova instead of two of them because during that time they dont discord. I know that it is free damage, big damage, but it doesnt mean you need to have a party full of death novas, lol, as if you havent got a better option for the slot.

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They do focus on discord when enemies are under the requirement, they don't sit there the entire battle only using death nova. Death nova does not only hit melee, because unless your fighting against 3-6 melee at a time, or do not have as many minions up (which you already stated you don't run with 4 minion spells as I do) they do not all get stuck on the melee.

True, agree with this statement.

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Found it funny that he said 4 minion masters are overkill(dazed), then his build is the exact same just minus 1 set of bone minions. Anyways, if you don't kill quick enough or have the ability to make use of 4 minion spells, don't use them. I dunno about most people but I make use of them just fine and my extra bonus damage from death novas (for free) because it's a long last enchant that can be cast as I am prepping the target is what makes me able to keep a constant stream of corpses to use.

I end up defending daze here, no, its false. yeah he has threeminion raising skills in his bar but only one of them is a primary minion bomber other are suplimentary just to raise more corpses quicker and give more bulk to the wall, high recharge means the aint gonna spend a lot of time on that job. You have two full on minion bombers who will not only greatly interfere with eachover but make you hit with discord less often, which is bad. It is no longer a matter of how fast you kill, its a matter of eficiency were one main and two assisting high level minions are optimal.

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The reason sabway can't focus on more minions, is because that'd involve another jagged bomber and hoping that they would utilize the minions for damage, not utility. In discord, no character is just a minion bomber, or just a healer or just a curse necro. They all do 90+ armor ignoring damage with discord. I could use the default discord I posted earlier, in hardmode against the elusive golemancer (where there are no corpses) and it'd still kill everything as fast as another optimal discordway set up for no minions.

What do you mean? You can use dual MM + SS in some areas to great effect, large 20 minion wall will deal big damage with hexes and novas, reason they aint doing it is lack of healing. I agree that d-way doesnt need minions much tho.

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Multiple minion spells are only good if you can kill fast. If you can't, then that's your fault and thus you don't use them. But for the few people who actually try dual death novas, you should realize that you can summon more minions than your heroes can use. But that's a personal preference. Adding an extra minion spell or 2 does not reduce the effectiveness of the build in any way.

Three mms cope with raising minions fine enough, you dont need a minion spell on every character. Usually one death nova is enough to have a steady flow of explosions, not that you need to pre-cast it on healthy minions. Just tell me why the hell you need more than 24 minions? And how the ... will you keep up with 32 minion wall, I mean, you will never raise it.

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Because in the end, they all discord and anything besides discord,healing and a hex/condition is a utility, not a requirement.

Agree, discord is so versatile it can be changed for many areas it doesnt mean that you dont need to use common sense though.

Tyla · Nov 17, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Agree, discord is so versatile it can be changed for many areas it doesnt mean that you dont need to use common sense though.

But pressing CTRL + Space is so hard, I can't C-Space as often on an EDex Ranger brainlessly with Discordway.

Daesu · Nov 18, 2008, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

The reason sabway can't focus on more minions, is because that'd involve another jagged bomber and hoping that they would utilize the minions for damage, not utility. In discord, no character is just a minion bomber, or just a healer or just a curse necro. They all do 90+ armor ignoring damage with discord. I could use the default discord I posted earlier, in hardmode against the elusive golemancer (where there are no corpses) and it'd still kill everything as fast as another optimal discordway set up for no minions.

Although I dont think a good generic build should have so many minion-related skills, it doesn't bother me if it does. Personally I know where not to use it, even if some others may not. 4 minion skills + 2 DN + 2 DS = 8 skills that would be quite useless in your elusive golemancer mission.

daze · Nov 18, 2008, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Found it funny that he said 4 minion masters are overkill(dazed), then his build is the exact same just minus 1 set of bone minions. Anyways, if you don't kill quick enough or have the ability to make use of 4 minion spells, don't use them.

and i would say it again, 4 Minion masters is overkill. I use 3 minion masters and that is probably more than i need. What is funny is the fact that when i use 3 minion masters, i usually have 18-23 minions total on the field. Even when im in VERY high corpse areas and taking on HUGE mobs of trolls and what not, I never get to the cap of 30 minions. 4 Minion masters would be no different simply because the corpse count would be the same and the ratio of minion popping to to corpse dropping would be the same. The only difference would be instead of Olias is controlling 8 minions, livia is controlling 4 minions, master of whispers is controlling 6 minions to make a total of 18 minions. it would be more like Olias is controlling 6 minions, master of whispers is controlling 4 minions, livia is controlling 4 minions, Krytan necromancer is controlling 6 minions.

But i did retract my statement that MK build is kind of a waste. Only because of the splitting capabilities. The only time having 4 minion masters on a team would even be somewhat effective is if the team is broke up into 2 parties of 4. Otherwise, it is just wasted skill slots that you may have well just put [[blood ritual] in or some hex removal.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 18, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Well, I don't sit there and wait as I watch my heroes cast death nova. They do it and cast 2-3 while I am targeting and prepping them.

So if I took off the second death nova then it wouldn't count as 4 minion masters, yet automatically adding that results in a minion master. I kind of laugh that I add 2 shamblings and people complain I am using 3-4 minion masters. Yet he does the same thing, minus another bone minions (because he either isn't in an area where there are enough corpses, or can't kill quick enough to use them) yet he is praised for it. If you can't use them don't use them, simple as that.

I understand that minions are useless and a blank slot in elusive golemancer. My point was that you do not need minions for anything with discord. They are extra. I didn't ever state you need the death nova damage or that you need that many minions. But daesu likes to tell me my dual death nova is horrible because of xxxxx reasons. Yet, 2 death novas doesn't do anything except add damage while your preparing enemies for discord. Takes no time away from discording (or if so, you have 4 more discords and an ap nuker to spike them down in the same amount of time).

I manage to utilize 4 minion spells and kill so fast that I have that many corpses available. Do I need to bring another minion spell in there no, but is it a waste to leave unused corpses when your heading to the next battle, I believe so.

If death nova took away time from discording and did not add damage, I would get rid of both copies and purely rely on minions for blocking and absorbing damage. But I kill a lot quicker by having 2 death novas than I do with only 1 or none.

I didn't state take my original build everywhere, if you can't use that many minions then instead of criticizing me, take them out for the area. Because of our killing speed I can use them all effectively and keep up a bigger army and more death novas than a build taking them out. If you can use more death novas and minions, which can absorb damage and dish out hundreds of damage.

It is a lot more valuable than a hex remover or a small heal or whatever you replace in that slot. Before you flame me to death for this statement above think of this. If you summon 1 minion, that is a more likely chance that they will take a few hits/ spells/ hexes away from your party, which results in negating atleast 100+ damage all for 1 minion spell. Which is why everyone likes having a lot of minions to absorb literally hundreds of damage and quite a few hexes, which is a lot better, IF there are corpses that can use them all.

daze · Nov 18, 2008, 04:35 AM // 04:35

There are no areas that can supply enough corpses to support 40 minions
Id doesn't take ANY skill to us a minion master when its just a hero. Im not criticizing you. Im just trying to get an understanding on why waste skill slots like that. I am not even saying that i dont have the ability to produce lots of corpses at a high pace. I just find it hard to believe that you have ever had more than 30 minions on the field at a time. I have been in areas with the biggest mob counts that a person can find just to see if i was able to get to the 30 minion cap. I even disabled Olias animate bone minions when he was at his 10 cap in order to let the other heroes use the corpses, but still have not reached the 30 cap yet. And with my main character, i can call a hex and condition then discord spike on a target so fast, that often the enemy dies before it can even get off its first skill. So there is no way that i don't kill fast enough.

I just had a thought, when i get home ill try it. Maybe in NM i can go and aggro 4-5 groups and max out my minion count. I never thought of trying it in NM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Why are you using meekness and mop? Also why dont you put divert hexes on you protection guy and why arent you using enfeebling blood? Another thing is that as far as I know having loads of minion spells in fow is not good.

I mean, it would be much more efficient to have shambling horror cucked on someone else and enfeebling blood given to the curses guy, you lack conditions abit atm.

I like meekness just because the area of effect is wider same with MoP. I can get over the energy cost and the recharge just because the effect of the skill is worth it IMO. I like all enemies in the area to be 50% slower And having MoP means that i dont need the huge spikes by the time i get to each enemy, so i can just end up casting [[assassins promise][[finish him] to clean up the area.

Its probably not too much more damage, but hey, it adds up and every little bit helps. and it sure beats wanding an enemy to death *ahem* Tyla *ahem*
j/k

I normally keep [[enfeebling blood] on the heroes but when i saved those builds i was with my necro friend who was using it on his bar along with a few other condition applying skills. But i normally swap out a few skills for every area i go to. Like in FoW I rely on hex removal more than i do minions.

Super Igor · Nov 18, 2008, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

There are no areas that can supply enough corpses to support 40 minions

Agree, I was using 20-24 minions, it rocked but the area was pushed to the limit corpse wise so having more is too much considering three minion spells is more than enough to exploit mobs with maximum speed.

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Id doesn't take ANY skill to us a minion master when its just a hero. Im not criticizing you. Im just trying to get an understanding on why waste skill slots like that.

[blood ritual] says hi!

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I am not even saying that i dont have the ability to produce lots of corpses at a high pace. I just find it hard to believe that you have ever had more than 30 minions on the field at a time. I have been in areas with the biggest mob counts that a person can find just to see if i was able to get to the 30 minion cap. I even disabled Olias animate bone minions when he was at his 10 cap in order to let the other heroes use the corpses, but still have not reached the 30 cap yet. And with my main character, i can call a hex and condition then discord spike on a target so fast, that often the enemy dies before it can even get off its first skill. So there is no way that i don't kill fast enough.

You cant get more of one shot, one kill with d-way tbh so...Knight's flaw in logic is that if he kills with such a speed, idk, maybe the entire mob in one use of discord

there is no need in minions, they just drag you behind. Also as I srsly said before three minion spells is enough for fast corpse exploiting considering you cant really kill everything in one blow very much using discord (no splinter ect...).

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I just had a thought, when i get home ill try it. Maybe in NM i can go and aggro 4-5 groups and max out my minion count. I never thought of trying it in NM.

You can overaggro in HM too actually. >.>

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I like meekness just because the area of effect is wider same with MoP. I can get over the energy cost and the recharge just because the effect of the skill is worth it IMO. I like all enemies in the area to be 50% slower And having MoP means that i dont need the huge spikes by the time i get to each enemy, so i can just end up casting [[assassins promise][[finish him] to clean up the area.

Health sac, 5 more energy, 3 times the recharge, lesser duration...just for in the area effect? Mobs are pretty cramped up, melee especially so chances are sof will effect all of them too and if not you can reapply it on guys who didnt get effected later.

MoP...heroes cast it on the target you are bashing...usually that means that target is being killed before mop can do any significant damage and you wait 20 seconds to use it again. Kind of a waste tbh barbs are bettahr. Go to an area, and look how they use it.

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Its probably not too much more damage, but hey, it adds up and every little bit helps. and it sure beats wanding an enemy to death *ahem* Tyla *ahem*
j/k

Wanding an enemy to death adds up too. Yay for wanding!

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I normally keep [[enfeebling blood] on the heroes but when i saved those builds i was with my necro friend who was using it on his bar along with a few other condition applying skills. But i normally swap out a few skills for every area i go to. Like in FoW I rely on hex removal more than i do minions.

kay.

daze · Nov 18, 2008, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

MoP...heroes cast it on the target you are bashing...usually that means that target is being killed before mop can do any significant damage and you wait 20 seconds to use it again. Kind of a waste tbh barbs are bettahr. Go to an area, and look how they use it.

Well it just dawned on me that [[mark of pain] is not an area hex. It is a single enemy hex that does area damage (like SS).

I always was a big fan of using MoP with lots of minions though. looks like it is only for Sabway.

And even with the high cost of [[meekness] im still not too worried.. I pack 3-4 fast casting hexes on my bar at any time so its not a huge deal for heroes to pack a lot of them. I like to control the hex/conditions myself and let heroes do what they do best and spike [[discord] all i have to do is yell "SPIKE DAMMIT" at my computer screen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

[blood ritual] says hi!

but that's just one skill and it has a use. not like MK slapping in 3-4 skills to a team build that don't need to be in there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Although I dont think a good generic build should have so many minion-related skills, it doesn't bother me if it does. Personally I know where not to use it, even if some others may not. 4 minion skills + 2 DN + 2 DS = 8 skills that would be quite useless in your elusive golemancer mission.

Super Igor · Nov 18, 2008, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Well it just dawned on me that [[mark of pain] is not an area hex. It is a single enemy hex that does area damage (like SS).

I always was a big fan of using MoP with lots of minions though. looks like it is only for Sabway.

Before d-way I always had a hero with mop somewere because it synched so well with my [death blossom] but more I looked at it on d-way more I realised that it was being wasted as a wrong hex to fuel d-way, so yea, leave it to other setups...[barbs] all the way with d-way.

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And even with the high cost of [[meekness] im still not too worried.. I pack 3-4 fast casting hexes on my bar at any time so its not a huge deal for heroes to pack a lot of them. I like to control the hex/conditions myself and let heroes do what they do best and spike [[discord] all i have to do is yell "SPIKE DAMMIT" at my computer screen.

Actually you dont need to have a lot of hexes on d-way heroes in general because they will spend too much time casting them. I end up running a total of 3-4 hexes on my three d-way heroes, two copies of [putrid bile], [shadow of fear] with occasional [barbs] as a fourth hex and cant recall to have any p[roblem with it.
As for meekness, Im not saying that its utterly horrible, the effect is still good and with energy issues being irrelevant you can aswell heal the guy from the sac, only problem is the time wasted on healing the sac that could've been used to cast an extra [discord], I personally use [shadow of fear] because its a more efficient and spammable way to make them attack 50% slower and it usually covers the entire mob. Neither it becomes a problem when they decide to cast it on mob's last standing guy. :P

At bolded bit: I usually have to get a new keyboard at this point...

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but that's just one skill and it has a use. not like MK slapping in 3-4 skills to a team build that don't need to be in there.

Emo skills are brave amirite?

MOAR [blood is [email protected]][blood [email protected]][blood is [email protected]][blood [email protected]][blood is [email protected]][blood [email protected]][blood is [email protected]][blood [email protected]][blood is [email protected]][blood [email protected]][blood is [email protected]][blood [email protected]] ACTION!!!!

Daesu · Nov 18, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

But daesu likes to tell me my dual death nova is horrible because of xxxxx reasons. Yet, 2 death novas doesn't do anything except add damage while your preparing enemies for discord. Takes no time away from discording (or if so, you have 4 more discords and an ap nuker to spike them down in the same amount of time).

We all know that death nova is useful. I have yet to see a MM bomber build without one. But how many death nova do we need? If you think 1 DN is not enough then why 2 Death Nova? Why not 3, 4, 5, or 6 if it is so great? There has to be a limit. Even though you call it free damage, the damage is not free, you have to sacrifice skill slots for it, skill slots that can be put to better use.

With 6 Discords you are already pumped up in the damage department, I would rather work on my defensive capabilities with those skill slots than to waste them on extra DNs. Not having enough damage should be the least your worries with 6 discords. Surviving in a tough area when your minions are all dead would be more useful.

Problem. · Nov 18, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

[build prof=N/Rt death=12 sou=8 cur=10 res=2][Discord][Animate Bone Minions][Animate Shambling Horror][Barbs][Putrid Bile][Enfeebling Blood][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet][/build]
[build prof=N/Rt death=10 sou=7 cur=4 res=12][Discord][Weaken Armor][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Protective Was Kaolai][Signet of Lost Souls][Life][Death Pact Signet][/build]
[build prof=N/Mo death=12 sou=8 pro=10][Discord][Animate Bone Minions][Animate Shambling Horror][Putrid Bile][Death Nova][Feast for the Dead][Signet of Lost Souls][Aegis][/build]

Thats what I run, i just copied the template code. Add in runes, and you have the attributes i run....

Turbobusa · Nov 18, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

It's fairly OK, tho I wouldn't use 2 bone minions AND shambling.
2 shamblings/1 bone minions or 2 shamblings + malign intervention + verata's gaze, or 2 bone minions, depending on what character I'm playing with.
Not a fan of weaken armor either, but it's ok. I use enfeebling blood on mine instead.

Ho BTW, I tried a crit spear sin with asura scan and crual spear/vicious, it works so great with that kind of team I had to mention it.

Nightow · Nov 18, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

[build prof=N/Rt death=12 sou=8 cur=10 res=2][Discord][Animate Bone Minions][Animate Shambling Horror][Barbs][Putrid Bile][Enfeebling Blood][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet][/build]
[build prof=N/Rt death=10 sou=7 cur=4 res=12][Discord][Weaken Armor][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Protective Was Kaolai][Signet of Lost Souls][Life][Death Pact Signet][/build]
[build prof=N/Mo death=12 sou=8 pro=10][Discord][Animate Bone Minions][Animate Shambling Horror][Putrid Bile][Death Nova][Feast for the Dead][Signet of Lost Souls][Aegis][/build]

Thats what I run, i just copied the template code. Add in runes, and you have the attributes i run....

Best post thus far in my opinion. Just curious, what henchmen do you usually run and what kind of character do you usually run with this?

Super Igor · Nov 18, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

[build prof=N/Rt death=12 sou=8 cur=10 res=2][Discord][Animate Bone Minions][Animate Shambling Horror][Barbs][Putrid Bile][Enfeebling Blood][Signet of Lost Souls][Death Pact Signet][/build]
[build prof=N/Rt death=10 sou=7 cur=4 res=12][Discord][Weaken Armor][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Protective Was Kaolai][Signet of Lost Souls][Life][Death Pact Signet][/build]
[build prof=N/Mo death=12 sou=8 pro=10][Discord][Animate Bone Minions][Animate Shambling Horror][Putrid Bile][Death Nova][Feast for the Dead][Signet of Lost Souls][Aegis][/build]

Thats what I run, i just copied the template code. Add in runes, and you have the attributes i run....

Pretty weak imo.

No dwayna's sorrow, weak attribute spreads, low on hexes, skills destributed badly, overkill on minions, lol, who would ever run two copies of bone minions and shamblings? Weak heal, no protection or hex removal at all, sols that you dont need killing stuff this fast.

I run this:

[build prof=N/Rt box][discord][animate bone minions][putrid bile][spirit light][protective was kaolai][mend body and soul][recovery][flesh of my flesh][/build]
[build prof=N/Rt box][discord][enfeebling blood][shadow of fear][rip enchantment][protective was kaolai][mend body and soul][life][flesh of my flesh][/build]
[build prof=N/Mo box][discord][animate bone minions][putrid bile][death nova][dwayna's sorrow][aegis][protective spirit][cure hex][/build]
-It has never failed me, +24 armor on two of the guys, strong party-wide healing to power through degen and pressure, two restos allow lower restoration spec that means all of these guys have 14 spec discords, dwayna's sorow, hex removal, near immunity to conditions, sufficient prot.

Problem. · Nov 18, 2008, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Pretty weak imo.

No dwayna's sorrow, weak attribute spreads, low on hexes, skills destributed badly, overkill on minions, lol, who would ever run two copies of bone minions and shamblings? Weak heal, no protection or hex removal at all, sols that you dont need killing stuff this fast.

I run this:

[build prof=N/Rt box][discord][animate bone minions][putrid bile][spirit light][protective was kaolai][mend body and soul][recovery][flesh of my flesh][/build]
[build prof=N/Rt box][discord][enfeebling blood][shadow of fear][rip enchantment][protective was kaolai][mend body and soul][life][flesh of my flesh][/build]
[build prof=N/Mo box][discord][animate bone minions][putrid bile][death nova][dwayna's sorrow][aegis][protective spirit][cure hex][/build]
-It has never failed me, +24 armor on two of the guys, strong party-wide healing to power through degen and pressure, two restos allow lower restoration spec that means all of these guys have 14 spec discords, dwayna's sorow, hex removal, near immunity to conditions, sufficient prot.

I didn't ask for your opinion. It works for me cuz I play monk primary. I dont need all those protection skills. You have the same amount of hexes I have, except, *gasp*, one hex that has an adjacent range. Guess what, barbs is the same recharge, and it takes advantage of the fact that I have a lot of minions....Jagged minions are also really good at speading more condis. And as far as attributes go, there is one guy with a 12 spec death magic, which if im not mistaken, is a 10 pt dmg difference b/t 14 death.

*edit* i was resisting demolishing your post...but im going to.

weak att spreads? if you add up all my dmg from discord from my 3 necros, they will equal whatever amount of dmg you do with you necros cuz i have the main MM specced at 16 (assuming you are at 14 a pop). and i use that ward that increases dmg, so discord + barbs are doing more dmg.

skills distributed badly? are you serious?

overkill on minions? o hi my name is barbs and i get placed on targets with the potential of having 19 minions hitting me + two warriors. and guess what, my minions will stay alive longer than yours with the potential of popping more death novas....

no dwaynas sorrow? i used to run with that b4, but i felt it was too ineffective. if i have a partner with me, ill have him slot it, but i dont need it, and again, im a primary monk and im most likely going to use lod.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

Best post thus far in my opinion. Just curious, what henchmen do you usually run and what kind of character do you usually run with this?

i play primary monk. as far as henchies go,

in nightfall, i use two monks, devona + paragon or devona + illusion hench. the addition of visions of regret to his bar adds a lot of dmg.

i think it factions, i would use both monks and both warriors. this takes advantage of barbs.

in proph, both monks, and devona + aidan

daze · Nov 19, 2008, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

I didn't ask for your opinion. It works for me cuz I play monk primary. I dont need all those protection skills. You have the same amount of hexes I have, except, *gasp*, one hex that has an adjacent range. Guess what, barbs is the same recharge, and it takes advantage of the fact that I have a lot of minions....Jagged minions are also really good at speading more condis. And as far as attributes go, there is one guy with a 12 spec death magic, which if im not mistaken, is a 10 pt dmg difference b/t 14 death.

i play primary monk. as far as henchies go,

in nightfall, i use two monks, devona + paragon or devona + illusion hench. the addition of visions of regret to his bar adds a lot of dmg.

i think it factions, i would use both monks and both warriors. this takes advantage of barbs.

in proph, both monks, and devona + aidan

Well the great thing about online forums is i can give my opinion without being asked for it.

And here is my opinion. Your build is workable but not very stable. Unless you play a primary monk that handles Prot, Better heals, and hex/condition removal; you will be relying on henchies who do a poor job at all but heals.

There is nothing wrong with using Shambling with Animate bone minions, but 2 of each is a bit of a waste. It would make more sense to give one hero bone minions and the other one shamblings. Or at the very least, remove one copy of bone minions and let him just worry about shamblings.

And for anybody who runs multiple minion masters, they should not leave home without [[dwaynas sorrow] just because its easy constant healing for the party. Its easy to cast, AoE, and with all the minions popping your party is spammed heals during the whole battle.

weaken armor is not the best choice of skill because most of the damage being applied is already armor ignoring. So you could add more effective options for conditions.

personally, the henchies i bring are all monks then all necros then eles if there's room