Curse

MercenaryKnight · Nov 13, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

The problem with dwayna's sorrow, is it's only effective when the minions die. Which will happen at the beginning of the battle. Because usually battles go like this. First you aggro, minions rush forward, hero casts sorrow on minions they all go poof. Party has hardly taken any damage and now all their heals are gone because all the minions absorbed most of the damage.

So relying on dwayna's sorrow is pointless, because it should not be providing that much healing to begin with for most battles. Note, I said relying on it, not that you should not take it. But your going to need more heals because most of the damage your going to take is when dwayna's won't be helping your health.

Super Igor · Nov 13, 2008, 08:34 PM // 20:34

But the huge heal at the time you aggro is what you need, making aggroing basically fail safe. I know you shouldnt rely on it as your only heal bu the sheer ammount of damage it can absorb is amazing.

upier · Nov 13, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

The problem with dwayna's sorrow, is it's only effective when the minions die. Which will happen at the beginning of the battle. Because usually battles go like this. First you aggro, minions rush forward, hero casts sorrow on minions they all go poof. Party has hardly taken any damage and now all their heals are gone because all the minions absorbed most of the damage.

So relying on dwayna's sorrow is pointless, because it should not be providing that much healing to begin with for most battles. Note, I said relying on it, not that you should not take it. But your going to need more heals because most of the damage your going to take is when dwayna's won't be helping your health.

Life:a party-wide heal every 20 secs, whether you need it or not.
PwK: at best you'll get two party-wide heals on demand - and then you need to wait 15 secs for another.

DS - yes, you will have a LOT of wasted healing - but if you lose almost 20 minions, and you have no corpses to raise new guys (or you lost those guys too) - you are probably doing something wrong. You've either massively over-aggroed or you aren't killing anything. And in those cases - I'd imagine that Life/PwK won't do you any good.
The thing I forgot to mention is that DS, despite it's flaws, means you have access to Protection. Resto isn't bad - but it pales compared to PS, Aegis, SoA.
So with those things in mind - DS is my choice.

-Lotus- · Nov 13, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

The problem with dwayna's sorrow, is it's only effective when the minions die. Which will happen at the beginning of the battle. Because usually battles go like this. First you aggro, minions rush forward, hero casts sorrow on minions they all go poof. Party has hardly taken any damage and now all their heals are gone because all the minions absorbed most of the damage.

egh, not exactly. in any battles that matter you should have a near-max supply of minions at all times. that means that every time something dies your heroes summon minions and old minions die. whatever hero has DW usually apams it like mad, so you can count on all the minions that gradually die throught the battle healing you up.

Super Igor · Nov 13, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Life:a party-wide heal every 20 secs, whether you need it or not.
PwK: at best you'll get two party-wide heals on demand - and then you need to wait 15 secs for another.

DS - yes, you will have a LOT of wasted healing - but if you lose almost 20 minions, and you have no corpses to raise new guys (or you lost those guys too) - you are probably doing something wrong. You've either massively over-aggroed or you aren't killing anything. And in those cases - I'd imagine that Life/PwK won't do you any good.
The thing I forgot to mention is that DS, despite it's flaws, means you have access to Protection. Resto isn't bad - but it pales compared to PS, Aegis, SoA.
So with those things in mind - DS is my choice.

Why dont you take prot and resto? Just prot is not enough red bars go up, just resto might get you into trouble, too much of both is bad. Imho, last thing you need to do in pve is chain aegis, seriously, 11 seconds is enough to turn the tide of battle to your side, cast hexes and stuff.

upier · Nov 13, 2008, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Why dont you take prot and resto? Just prot is not enough red bars go up, just resto might get you into trouble, too much of both is bad. Imho, last thing you need to do in pve is chain aegis, seriously, 11 seconds is enough to turn the tide of battle to your side, cast hexes and stuff.

Why would I need resto when I have 2 monk hench?
If the build has too much Prot - you drop it for something else.
Something else doesn't include Healing or Resto. Prot will outperform both lines when running two monk hench - so if the stronger line isn't needed - there is no reason to take the weaker ones.
Go mesmer for interrupts/AV, go ele for wards/slowdowns, go channeling for Splinter/AR, ...

Unless of course you are running one of the Discord guys as the second healer - thus taking only one monk hench. The problem of course is that the hench monks (minus the obvious lack of expected skills - such as condition/hex removal) are among the best hench available. Or better yet - they aren't among the worst. (Especially after the AI update which turned all hench into pussies who refuse to attack (Guard!??! On a warrior!?? WTF!??!)
Whereas making one Discord guy into a Resto means you now have 3 party slots that you need to fill with some pretty sub-par stuff.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 14, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Upier, some people run discordway with a partner or in 4 man areas. Thus there are no hench to add. In such a case, you usually have 2 resto healers then whatever you want for 6hero. 3 hero is generally 1 resto, 1 curse/ support and then the minion bomber with whatever you want.

I agree that dwayna's sorrow can help, but in places where your in hm and they have a decent aoe they generally kill minions very quickly and then when most of them are dead, they start focusing on the party. So the heal is usually minimal, but useful non the less.

I run 6 discord heroes. Generally the split is 2 curser discords, 2 minion bombers with protection spells, 2 restoration ritualists. The reason is, me and my partner are lazy and as such, don't want to have a separate 3man build to run incase of splitting or doing our own missions/ quests. So having doubles of both means we can effectively split and still have everything we need, as well as having double prot spirits and aegis' together.

upier · Nov 14, 2008, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

The reason is, me and my partner are lazy and as such, don't want to have a separate 3man build to run incase of splitting or doing our own missions/ quests.

The bolded part is the money shot.
If the point is to create an optimal build - then laziness can not be a factor.
Lazy people won't have problems with the current Discord-wiki build.

That's why I suggested to create variations of the Discord necro that work - and the people can then fill up their party with the required Discord necro depending on what role they need to fill. If they are running with a partner - then they'll obviously need some skills that will make the bars go up. But like I said - to take a necro playing that role is a waste if one is playing with 2 monk hench.
And like I also said - 4 man areas are once again a completely different story. You once again need certain roles to be filled - and obviously not bringing a hero that pushes red bars up isn't the way to go.

If people want it easy - they can stick to shitty builds that include the 4 traits I listed: high Death, reasonably high SR, conditions/hexes, Discord. PvE is easy - so there won't be an issue if one is running an sub-par build.
This thread on the other hand aims to create an above average build.
And considering that most of the time we were talking about 1 player + 3 heroes + 4 hench - certain things are a waste. Resto being one of them.

So seriously - if the point of this thread is to be linked if anyone asks anything about Discord-way - then it would be best if builds posted came with a description on the number of heroes ran, the party size, ...
I mean - as noted before - Sabway has a 4-man and an 8-man version.
Discord would need to have AT LEAST two versions then also.
Just state which version you are working on - and this will make it easier to see which roles one has to fill thus make things easier regarding commenting and suggesting changes.

daze · Nov 14, 2008, 01:18 AM // 01:18

what do you mean?? warrios should have [asuran scan] which is a perfectly spammable hex.

Daesu · Nov 14, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Upier you forgot that heroes do not use most of the skills in the protection line well, no matter how good the skills are their AI puts a real limit on their effective use. Aegis is fool proof, and PS is workable with unlimited energy. Very few of the protection spells are actually used in the right way by heroes.

Healing is generally needed, even Sab recognized that long ago, while Aegis only deals with very specific threats. The problem with runeless Mhenlo and Lina is that they run out of energy too easily and there is a huge gap in performance between Mhenlo and a good N/Rt restoration healer.

I recommend you try the hench healers as the only healers for HM Slavers and see just how well they perform.

MercenaryKnight · Nov 14, 2008, 04:57 AM // 04:57

There really is no such thing as an optimal discordway. Because in reality, if your running discordway with 6 heroes and 2 ap callers, hexes do not need removing and even if you bring hex removal in pve they spam you with hexes. Conditions don't affect casters, except dazed which is hardly ever in pve and we already have mend body and soul.

Besides that, protective spirit is useful and aegis is useful because ai can actually use it. So that's really all you need is those 2 protective spells and red bars go up skills.

Then of course, enfeebling blood/ shadow of fear for the requirements and that's all. Everything else really can't be optimized because all you need is more healing.

Turbobusa · Nov 14, 2008, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Depends.
Either you reduce the threat each mob represents w/ curses or you outheal the damage the deal.
One will break much faster than the other.

Super Igor · Nov 14, 2008, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Why would I need resto when I have 2 monk hench?
If the build has too much Prot - you drop it for something else.
Something else doesn't include Healing or Resto. Prot will outperform both lines when running two monk hench - so if the stronger line isn't needed - there is no reason to take the weaker ones.
Go mesmer for interrupts/AV, go ele for wards/slowdowns, go channeling for Splinter/AR, ...

Because you dont always have the monk hench, what about 4-6 man areas eh? Your party wont live really long there if you ask me, with just prot and no healing so pvx will just revert this shit and do a right thing.

Face it, all prot = bad, all heal = bad. Resto is good because its both prot and heal in one attribute line, weapon of warding is amazing unstrippable block, enough to make mobs cry, pwk is good armor bonus for squishy necores and nice fast party wide heal, life is up to 120 party wide heal, if a batle lasts 20 seconds it is very helpful + spirit, not that there are a lot of good spirits...mend body and soul is unconditional healing and great condition removal all of it you must have because when we are speaking of henchies they are bad at removing conditions and never provide a decent party-wide heal which is fail, as for prots, they have enough prots so all you really need is microable copy of prot spirit and aegis but you dont need 3 of each!!!

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Unless of course you are running one of the Discord guys as the second healer - thus taking only one monk hench. The problem of course is that the hench monks (minus the obvious lack of expected skills - such as condition/hex removal) are among the best hench available. Or better yet - they aren't among the worst. (Especially after the AI update which turned all hench into pussies who refuse to attack (Guard!??! On a warrior!?? WTF!??!)
Whereas making one Discord guy into a Resto means you now have 3 party slots that you need to fill with some pretty sub-par stuff.

Why dont you take monks still eh? Dont see any problem here when you have a skill that kills everything. Taking 9000 prot skills aint an option, lol 3 copies of aegis, kay, you may get killed slower but will get killed anyway.

Overkill on prot is lame, I'd better have microable prot and heal so I dont have to rely on henchies.

upier · Nov 14, 2008, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Upier you forgot that heroes do not use most of the skills in the protection line well, no matter how good the skills are their AI puts a real limit on their effective use. Aegis is fool proof, and PS is workable with unlimited energy. Very few of the protection spells are actually used in the right way by heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Besides that, protective spirit is useful and aegis is useful because ai can actually use it. So that's really all you need is those 2 protective spells and red bars go up skills.

Add in SoA, and then depending on the area and party - hex/condition removal. That's all the prot you need.
I never denied that - I actually said that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Healing is generally needed, even Sab recognized that long ago, while Aegis only deals with very specific threats. The problem with runeless Mhenlo and Lina is that they run out of energy too easily and there is a huge gap in performance between Mhenlo and a good N/Rt restoration healer.

I recommend you try the hench healers as the only healers for HM Slavers and see just how well they perform.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

There really is no such thing as an optimal discordway. Because in reality, if your running discordway with 6 heroes and 2 ap callers, hexes do not need removing and even if you bring hex removal in pve they spam you with hexes. Conditions don't affect casters, except dazed which is hardly ever in pve and we already have mend body and soul.

Then of course, enfeebling blood/ shadow of fear for the requirements and that's all. Everything else really can't be optimized because all you need is more healing.

So what you ("you" as in Daesu - I am just replying to both since it seems relevant to both posts) are saying is that HM Slavers is a good representation of what GW PvE is like?
And based on that - I'd definitely say that running a resto Discord necro is less optimal then not running one.
There is nothing stopping you from adding the resto when it's needed (I mean people are suggesting the use of Frozen Soil, Golem, your favorite counter to a specific problem, ... in certain areas, but does that mean EVERY build should ALWAYS run them?) - but to suggest that people should run it and then add two monks also (which, let's be honest, is what people who aren't able to create their own Discord build and are relying on wiki will do) is a waste.
Are Aegis chains an overkill? Well, probably.
But the thing is - it's a good skill and it doesn't stop the heroes from spamming Discord. Same thing with multiple PSs. You have a constant 50% chance to be missed and the whole party will be covered by PS. That's REALLY good - and it lasts for an eternity.
When on the other hand you are running a resto hero with spammable heals - you might as well remove Discord also. His priorities will shift.

The resto is optional. Add it when you need it.
But for it to be part of the core build, which is going to be played with 2 monk hench, is a huge waste.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Because you dont always have the monk hench, what about 4-6 man areas eh? Your party wont live really long there if you ask me, with just prot and no healing so pvx will just revert this shit and do a right thing.

How many additional times must I quote myself saying that I am discussing an 8-man build.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...8&postcount=40
This is the height of stupidity - you are saying the same thing over and over and over again after I have addressed it ages ago.

Super Igor · Nov 14, 2008, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

How many additional times must I quote myself saying that I am discussing an 8-man build.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...8&postcount=40
This is the height of stupidity - you are saying the same thing over and over and over again after I have addressed it ages ago.

Because this thread aint abut your damn 8 man build! This is about a discordway on pvx and how to improve it, e.g. make it good enough for them not to revert so it must work in any area without a drammatic change to it. Seriously I know pvx much better than you do.

upier · Nov 14, 2008, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Because this thread aint abut your damn 8 man build! This is about a discordway on pvx and how to improve it, e.g. make it good enough for them not to revert so it must work in any area without a drammatic change to it. Seriously I know pvx much better than you do.

So an 8-man build is basically a 4-man build + 4 hench?
And that's going to be as optimal as one can have it?
How bad are you?
I mean - look at Sabway - it has a 4-man and an 8-man version!
And Discord should have just ONE version? A build that will be worse then a specific 4-man build and at the same time be worse then a specific 8-man build? Just so that lazy people don't need to think/re-spec when they jump between 4-man and 8-man areas?
Use the current one then. You are obviously valuing being lazy above being effective.

And yeah - I am pretty sure you know wiki better then I do. But you know what - I probably know the game better then you do.

daze · Nov 14, 2008, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And yeah - I am pretty sure you know wiki better then I do. But you know what - I probably know the game better then you do.

Nice.

The title if this thread is fixing PvX wiki. I dont see why it would limit all discussion to a 4 man team build. I have 2 different discord folders on my saved templates, one for 3 heroes and one for 6. IMO Pvx should do something similar. (give a 3 hero example and a separate for 6.)

upier · Nov 14, 2008, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

The title if this thread is fixing PvX wiki. I dont see why it would limit all discussion to a 4 man team build. I have 2 different discord folders on my saved templates, one for 3 heroes and one for 6. IMO Pvx should do something similar. (give a 3 hero example and a separate for 6.)

Exactly.
Or at least make it an 8-man build with suggestions on how to build additional Discord bars - like people above have said - for cases when you MIGHT want your necro to fill a different role - be it because of the area you are in or the party formation.
But to make the core version a 4-man version, when most of the game is build with 8-man parties in mind, is just insane.

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Nice.

Well, I am never one to shy away from a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO-measuring contest!

Daesu · Nov 14, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So what you ("you" as in Daesu - I am just replying to both since it seems relevant to both posts) are saying is that HM Slavers is a good representation of what GW PvE is like?

No it is an extreme representation of what GW PvE is like, so as to cleary demonstrate the deficiencies of the healer henchies compared to N/Rt healers.

Restoration has a generally higher heal/energy ratio than even healing prayers, if you dont take divine favor into account. What restoration lacks most is hex removal which is not necessary in most PvE areas, since with a higher heal/energy ratio + soul reaping (fueled further by a minion bomber), a N/Rt can out-heal degen even in Dalada Uplands against the insects that cast Conjure Nightmare among other hexes. You should also try taking Mhenlo+Lina as the only healers into HM Dalada and observe how they perform against strong degen over there.

The required protection skills like PS and Aegis are already covered in a typical discordway/sabway. If you have extra skill slots, you can add SoA and a hex removal. But healing may just be the most important role in a PvE team. Too important to be handed over fully to a runeless hench.

For NM and easy areas in HM, the hench healers are probably fine, but for areas that would actually pose a challenge, you want more capable healers in your team. A little bird told me that upier tends to stay away from HM.

Super Igor · Nov 14, 2008, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So an 8-man build is basically a 4-man build + 4 hench?
And that's going to be as optimal as one can have it?

No, but to be optimal it needs to perform well in 4 man areas like it can in 8 man ones, remember 8 man sabway, even when there was a 4 man version the 8 man version could easily perform in 4 man areas as effectively without radical changes to it, also as mercenary knight has pointed out it must perform well when two players take it, your prot overkill version cant do any.

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How bad are you?

Im not bad.

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I mean - look at Sabway - it has a 4-man and an 8-man version!

8 man version can easily perform in 4 man areas, specific 4 man version just makes it slightly easier but is rather rare anyway.

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And Discord should have just ONE version?

Its good to have two versions but your option aint an option, there must be a general version and maybe specific 4 man version but honestly, you dont need to change discordway so much in 8 and 4 man, it as enough block, heal, prot, having splinter is rather useless on d-way and theres no mop and those are things you need/dont need in 4-man.

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A build that will be worse then a specific 4-man build and at the same time be worse then a specific 8-man build? Just so that lazy people don't need to think/re-spec when they jump between 4-man and 8-man areas?

Prot overkill isnt effective and is more of personal preferense/variant than an actual build. Besides discordway usually doesnt include stuff that has little effect in 4 man as Ive mentioned above.

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Use the current one then. You are obviously valuing being lazy above being effective.

Current one is bad I agree, it became bad when they included the ap caller but didnt change the necro bars.

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And yeah - I am pretty sure you know wiki better then I do. But you know what - I probably know the game better then you do.

You probably dont. Also let me say it again, we are going to improve upon pvx wiki build so think in wiki way e.g. make a general "lazy" bar and flood it with variants.