Curse

-Lotus- · Nov 13, 2008, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

It IS a wiki.

lol
no its really not. it looks like a wiki at a glance, but the mods just decide all the votes anyways.

while we are waiting for that spoon to the backm take a look at their imbagon and try to figure out how many times someone has attempted to fix it.

AtomicMew · Nov 13, 2008, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

lol
no its really not. it looks like a wiki at a glance, but the mods just decide all the votes anyways.

while we are waiting for that spoon to the backm take a look at their imbagon and try to figure out how many times someone has attempted to fix it.[/QUOTE]
You have a point with the imbagon, I agree. PvX isn't perfect, okay, but discordway isn't one of those builds that the mods have had a tight grip on. It's just that no one has tried to fix it.

Quote:

[[Finish Him] doesn't make sense for causing conditions, unless you're just fighting a boss. [[You Move Like A Dwarf] is slightly more sensible in general, but expensive.

The point of AP-ymlad-FH is not just for condition priming, but also for damage. It's about 250 armor ignoring damage which is 2.5 discords instantly.

Quote:

That makes sense. Stating that AP is the best elite for every single profession in the game, in most situations, is just not going to be convincing. Better not to post a caller template, than one that you have problems defending for all classes.

Fine: can we at least agree that the AP caller is best on caster-professions? We can use that as a template for caster professions, and please post build suggestions for martial professions.

Opinion: as far as paragon AP caller vs. imbagon, imbagon simply does not kill fast enough for my tastes. What I like about discordway is that it rolls stuff fast, not that it has imbalanced defenses. I've tried both, and the AP caller was significantly faster in my experience.

lishi · Nov 13, 2008, 07:00 AM // 07:00

AP work fine on a ranger too.

The only profession where it might have a problem its on a warrior.

left to themselves the heroes are much slower in killing. And micromanaging the heroes discord its way too boring.

upier · Nov 13, 2008, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Just a few things to note:

The first picture is my selection of heroes for a 2man+6-hero FoW party. The second one is just what I've been running the next day.
My guildy was running your average Sabway (which means we we're running with just one guy that made the red bars go up).
The reason why I am bringing this up is to simply show that I NEVER run SoLS. And my heroes run on +5 energy spears and shields, giving them 35 energy.
(Of course I needed to modify some things since we we're running 6 necros - I have a second necro running minions otherwise. The second one has also been modified since. Because I can.)

Second of all - if you are going to make a full build (which I am not in favor of since the best thing about Discord (next to the fact that heroes can actually run it) is the huge sandbox which leaves many options for the user - ready to be modified depending on the area and the foes encountered) - keep in mind that Sabway had a 4-man and an 8-man version.
And for the 8-man version - I do not see the point in Resto. Yes - Life, PwK and WoW are sweet - but you'll be running two hench monks also. And that should completely satisfy your healing needs. I'd rather have massive amounts of protection at my disposal then some additional healing - especially if one uses Dwayna's.
And for the 4-man version - I run a primary monk.

And third - probably the best thing you can do is to simply state that the core of the Discord build is:
1. high Death
2. Discord
3. some hexes/conditions - Cracked, Weakness are sweet since the necro skills are spammable. Test attack speed reducing hexes - my experience showed that unless the target is a weapon mastery class - heroes have issues with the most used hexes - SoF, Meekness. Suffering proved to be more spammable.
EDIT: 4. I completely forgot about the MOST obvious reason - 8(+) in SR.

Then add various options on what to do with the remaining skillbar slots - thus giving each individual the option to fill out their builds themselves.
Meaning - if the secondary of the Discord necro is /mo then the skills advisable are: Cure Hex (requires next to 0 investment), Dismiss Conditions (requires next to 0 investment), Aegis (9), SoA (10), PS (X), ...
if running /me then: Power Spike (next to 0), CoF (next to 0), SV/AV (9), ...
and so on.

daze · Nov 13, 2008, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

suggestoions

Oh boy, it must be getting late. i was holding my mouse cursor over your skill bar in the photo and getting frustrated because the description wouldnt pop up.

Either im in Zombie mode right now or I play entirely too much GW, So much that muscle memory is forcing me to do dumb things.

ALF71BE · Nov 13, 2008, 12:04 PM // 12:04

hai guize i hurd [[Weaken Armor] wuz effective

Daesu · Nov 13, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Fine: can we at least agree that the AP caller is best on caster-professions? We can use that as a template for caster professions, and please post build suggestions for martial professions.

Yes, I would agree with that at least for eles, necros, mesmers, and maybe rits. It would be hard to convince some monks to give up their elite.

As for AP on rangers, I would not consider replacing my BHA+epidemic build which has been working so well for me especially in caster heavy areas.

Quote:

Opinion: as far as paragon AP caller vs. imbagon, imbagon simply does not kill fast enough for my tastes. What I like about discordway is that it rolls stuff fast, not that it has imbalanced defenses. I've tried both, and the AP caller was significantly faster in my experience.

Killing fast is good and that is why you have a discord team. But +100 armor for your team is also useful when you need it.

You can make your discord team kill faster if you bind the spell to your keyboard and micro manage a little.

Super Igor · Nov 13, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Why dont you just go to pvxwiki and discuss the change there instead of creating another threat about it? They wont revert if the change is good, hence they know that the build is subpar probably and just lazy/dont care to change it. Also if you will edit their discordway dont do it from an IP adress, this will make them think that its me, revert the changes and block your IP. :>

As for the build it needs more dwayna's sorrow, less meekness and more shadow of fear because its better in any way, more restoration and more shambling horrors as thanks to their long recharge it will reduce the time wasted on minions and make them discord much more which is gewd. Also might drop sols somewere because when you are killing that fast additional energy gain is not really worth an extra skill slot.

I have this idea:
[[email protected]][animate shambling [email protected]][putrid [email protected]][death [email protected]][protective [email protected]][[email protected]][dwayna's [email protected]][cure [email protected]]
[[email protected]][animate shambling [email protected]][putrid [email protected]][spirit [email protected]][protective was [email protected]][mend body and [email protected]][[email protected]][optional]
[[email protected]][enfeebling blood][shadow of fear][rip enchantment][protective was [email protected]][mend body and [email protected]][[email protected]][optional]

Fit anything you want in the optional slots, barbs and rez are a good option.

the savage nornbear · Nov 13, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

I second [[dwayna's sorrow]

Super Igor · Nov 13, 2008, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Dwayna's Sorrow is gewd.

AtomicMew · Nov 13, 2008, 05:10 PM // 17:10

You guys say more resto while upier says less resto...

:<

Super Igor · Nov 13, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

majority is win, and upier is stoopit.

:<

Nightow · Nov 13, 2008, 05:33 PM // 17:33

[Recovery] just seems redundant though if you already have 2 with Mend.

Turbobusa · Nov 13, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

imo 1 resto + 1 healer hench does the jobs pretty good considering you have weakening curses + enfeebling blood + minion wall + some prots...
gogo full offense on the other 2 necros

upier · Nov 13, 2008, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You guys say more resto while upier says less resto...

:<

Because Dwayna's should be all the party-wide healing you need - especially if you run around with two guys with Animate Minions.
I'd rather chain Aegis and have the ability to keep everyone under PS at all times then give that up for Life and PwK.
Especially since the hench do healing well - but suck at prot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

imo 1 resto + 1 healer hench does the jobs pretty good considering you have weakening curses + enfeebling blood + minion wall + some prots...
gogo full offense on the other 2 necros

The more offense you add on a Discord-hero bar - the bigger the chance that they refuse to spam Discord because of other options.

Zodiak · Nov 13, 2008, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The more offense you add on a Discord-hero bar - the bigger the chance that they refuse to spam Discord because of other options.

I completely agree.

I have tried alternatives with multiple hexes or coupled with other damage skills. Too many choices is bad for a Hero AI and will more then likely not chose the skill you want them to.

Take Vile Miamsa [vile miasma] for instance. I had tried it with a Discord build and they prefered using IT over discord [discord].

beserk · Nov 13, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

discord sucks for wars =(

Super Igor · Nov 13, 2008, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Because Dwayna's should be all the party-wide healing you need - especially if you run around with two guys with Animate Minions.
I'd rather chain Aegis and have the ability to keep everyone under PS at all times then give that up for Life and PwK.
Especially since the hench do healing well - but suck at prot.

Prot doesnt make your bars go up, you cant have a build with no healing if you want it to replace d-way on pvx.

Zodiak · Nov 13, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by beserk

discord sucks for wars =(

I woudnt say that exactly. Though it is true that when it comes to Warriors, they are poor with conditions and hexes. However, they CAN offer something far more valuable in some cases, Blocking.

A warrior's high armor is the perfect thing to block ennemies on corners and such to prevent the incomming mobs to get to your squishy backline, which you can almost never get using a hero or hench.

Yes a warrior has only a few conditions and absolutely no hexes, but if you DO want to help, you still have Bleeding, Crippling and Deep Wound that you can apply to help your discord'ers out if you feel the need.

Just think yourself as providing an invaluable service for them, given you pin them back before going in and chosing a suitable location to block at and still not over extending your healing.

upier · Nov 13, 2008, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Prot doesnt make your bars go up, you cant have a build with no healing if you want it to replace d-way on pvx.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

... keep in mind that Sabway had a 4-man and an 8-man version.
And for the 8-man version - I do not see the point in Resto. Yes - Life, PwK and WoW are sweet - but you'll be running two hench monks also. And that should completely satisfy your healing needs. I'd rather have massive amounts of protection at my disposal then some additional healing - especially if one uses Dwayna's.
And for the 4-man version - I run a primary monk.

Designing the "ultimate" Discord bar and not designing it with an 8-member party in mind is what should be avoided here.
You don't need "red bars go up" heroes (outside of Dwayna's - because it's really sweet and works nicely with a bunch of minions and doesn't require a huge investment in Healing) in an 8-man party with 3 heroes. You have hench for that.

4-man Discord parties should be a separate thread (or at least marked VERY clearly in the post discussing it!) because you have a completely different set of demands from members in such a party.