Curse

Daesu · Feb 16, 2009, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Sabway is by far better suited to work with a physical character, [mark of pain] [barbs] [rip enchantment] [splinter weapon] but if you try to gimp all of that into Discordway you end up with a build that doesn't do either of the jobs well and has completely no focus.
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You still have not explained how [barbs] [rip enchantment] [splinter weapon] would gimp discordway. MoP is not in the standard sabway. Also your opinion that physical character should not use discordway is not universally accepted by everyone.

For example check out this build, which someone posted above:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10321473

...it caters for the Paragon, Warrior, and assassin too with their physical attacks.

Maybe if you prove that physical attacks or physical supporting skills (e.g. splinter weapon) are bad in a discordway team, then it will be easier for us to understand your point.

Saraneth · Feb 17, 2009, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

[asuran scan] can be used as a hex for physical classes.

I already mentioned that in an earlier post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Biggest issue I have with your discordway is you dont have much conditions besides death nova and bleeding from minions sometimes. And no weakness can be painful.

[Withering Aura] generates weakness. If you were refering to the DoA thread, the conditions were mainly provided by the AP nuker or EC nec, which had the potential for aoe weakness, d/w, cripple, bleeding, and daze. The physicals being responsible for d/w, spread by the EC, in some instances.

Super Igor · Feb 20, 2009, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You still have not explained how [barbs] [rip enchantment] [splinter weapon] would gimp discordway. MoP is not in the standard sabway. Also your opinion that physical character should not use discordway is not universally accepted by everyone.

For example check out this build, which someone posted above:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10321473

...it caters for the Paragon, Warrior, and assassin too with their physical attacks.

Maybe if you prove that physical attacks or physical supporting skills (e.g. splinter weapon) are bad in a discordway team, then it will be easier for us to understand your point.

So is yours that AP caller is crap and splinter whould be used with casters. Also, I didnt say it doesnt work with a physical, my prof is assassin I vanqed everything with D-Way no problem, point I'm making priming Discord with AP caller is much better and faster than priming it using melee. After I started to use AP caller I never looked back.

Also, if you link that thread again I slap you. It a damn 6 hero build for DoA

Oh and how those skills gimp D-Way? Attributes, you cant fit all of those into 3 heroes without losing out on healing or Discord damage and its not really worth it.

Daesu · Feb 20, 2009, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

So is yours that AP caller is crap and splinter whould be used with casters. Also, I didnt say it doesnt work with a physical, my prof is assassin I vanqed everything with D-Way no problem, point I'm making priming Discord with AP caller is much better and faster than priming it using melee.

The point of my posting Cathode's build is to show you what a superior discordway can look like. Even though it is for 6-heroes (you cant use henchies in DoA anyway), you can still adapt it for 3-heroes. Cathode's D-Way build includes physical damage characters and splinter weapon which is another point I am trying to make.

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Oh and how those skills gimp D-Way? Attributes, you cant fit all of those into 3 heroes without losing out on healing or Discord damage and its not really worth it.

You also dont need 2 healer heroes in a 3-heroes build. People who have used sabway have been surviving well with only 1 restore healer hero. If you claim that your discordway kills faster, then you shouldn't need to worry about having an extra healer or not. For physical damage characters, I rather use a discordway from someone like Cathode that has splinter weapon and thus, kills faster.

marmar256 · Feb 20, 2009, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Ok so so far discord is what i should run but i aint seen many bars?
Can you guys ping aset of decent bars (not cathodes DoA heroway ones) that are used for PvE thanks

Super Igor · Feb 20, 2009, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The point of my posting Cathode's build is to show you what a superior discordway can look like. Even though it is for 6-heroes (you cant use henchies in DoA anyway), you can still adapt it for 3-heroes. Cathode's D-Way build includes physical damage characters and splinter weapon which is another point I am trying to make.

lolwut, thats a 6 hero Discord'ish setup for DoA it wont work very well for general pve. What I run for 6 hero works so much better and if you take out just those three Discord heroes then again I lol at you sir they wont work well.

Quote:

You also dont need 2 healer heroes in a 3-heroes build. People who have used sabway have been surviving well with only 1 restore healer hero. If you claim that your discordway kills faster, then you shouldn't need to worry about having an extra healer or not. For physical damage characters, I rather use a discordway from someone like Cathode that has splinter weapon and thus, kills faster.

You dont want to listen Daesu. Not everyone by far agree with you on that point and many have explained to you why.

Dual healer evens out the stress of keeping your party alive between two characters and increases the rate at which red bars go up so your heroes can spend more time spamming Discord and less time healing. Pretty obvious tbh.

There are two reasons why Sab's worked fine with just one healer. One is because it didnt have to constantly switch from offensive to healing and other that Sab's simply didnt have enough space to accomodate both when new options like for party-wide healing and hex removal were introduced (if you've been around for long enough you would know what Sab's looked like at first).

Your opinion on this matter is pretty biased, ofc [splinter weapon] is a great spell but it depends on what party you run and whatare you face but not as godly as you desribe it sometimes it can be simply redundant.

Daesu · Feb 21, 2009, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

There are two reasons why Sab's worked fine with just one healer. One is because it didnt have to constantly switch from offensive to healing and other that Sab's simply didnt have enough space to accomodate both when new options like for party-wide healing and hex removal were introduced (if you've been around for long enough you would know what Sab's looked like at first).

The amount of time you switched to offensive is only 1s since discord is a 1s cast. And please dont say that because you have another animate shamblings on your healer that is another 3s more that you need to cover. Here is the news, you dont need another minion spell on your restore healer.

And if you look at your pvx build, when your main healer is casting animate shamblings what do you think your curse/restore is doing? Possibly also casting his animate shamblings on the same corpse maybe failing since there is only one corpse. Even if your curse/restore healer is not casting shamblings, he has only what? 9 to restore. Wow! Great power heal there while the other healer is conjuring a shambling that may even fail since your MM may also have his eyes on the same corpse. This is why Sab doesn't like too many MMs in her 3-necro build.

Quote:

Your opinion on this matter is pretty biased, ofc [splinter weapon] is a great spell but it depends on what party you run and whatare you face but not as godly as you desribe it sometimes it can be simply redundant.

Of course, I only use it on my physical characters as they synergize so well. Sab (and other build authors) would not have pump in 10 points into channeling just for that SINGLE channeling skill if it is simply redundant. That just goes to show how much Sab is willing to go just to bring Splinter Weapon into her build.

Who do I believe is right? Sab or yourself?

hunter · Feb 21, 2009, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Getting in melee range to prime Discord is zzzzzzzz

no choice there, you are a melee character.

What i like to do on my war is get asuran scan, YMLAD and either throw in SY if things are serious or WW attack if i wanna speed clear.

1 hero always has withering aura, which is cast on me as soon as mobs engage usually. However YMLAD and asuran scan are used to prime discord from range either on the first target that needs to get blown appart instantly or to be individually (or both ) cast on the following targets. Usually however, 2-3 sec after the mob agroes most of well will be hexed and/or poisoned. Withering aura with WW attack, or cyclone axe (if i decide to go endurance axe for example) ensures i have a condition on the 1-3 closest mobs to me, so after that first target goes down, its just a matter of tab targeting and spiking with the occasional asuran scan/YMLAD when needed.

Splinter weapon really trivializes things on areas where you have to body block partially as melee, such as the awakened in joko's domain and poisoned outcrops. Thats 1 particular area where you have to be careful regardless of your main character and build.

You can probably argue that a discord with a mesmer/necro/other casters kills faster than with a warrior, which is partially true when the battle starts , but once mobs are poisoned and you are in the middle of them putting conditions on everyone, it just becomes a trivial matter calling targets with your character and the kill speed is generally similar to that of a caster/discord

TLDR version: Just go discord, it kicks ass regardless of what class you are. If you are a warrior, make sure you have 1 or 2 more conditions/hexes available to cast.

Super Igor · Feb 21, 2009, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

no choice there, you are a melee character.

What i like to do on my war is get asuran scan, YMLAD and either throw in SY if things are serious or WW attack if i wanna speed clear.

1 hero always has withering aura, which is cast on me as soon as mobs engage usually. However YMLAD and asuran scan are used to prime discord from range either on the first target that needs to get blown appart instantly or to be individually (or both ) cast on the following targets. Usually however, 2-3 sec after the mob agroes most of well will be hexed and/or poisoned. Withering aura with WW attack, or cyclone axe (if i decide to go endurance axe for example) ensures i have a condition on the 1-3 closest mobs to me, so after that first target goes down, its just a matter of tab targeting and spiking with the occasional asuran scan/YMLAD when needed.

Splinter weapon really trivializes things on areas where you have to body block partially as melee, such as the awakened in joko's domain and poisoned outcrops. Thats 1 particular area where you have to be careful regardless of your main character and build.

You can probably argue that a discord with a mesmer/necro/other casters kills faster than with a warrior, which is partially true when the battle starts , but once mobs are poisoned and you are in the middle of them putting conditions on everyone, it just becomes a trivial matter calling targets with your character and the kill speed is generally similar to that of a caster/discord

TLDR version: Just go discord, it kicks ass regardless of what class you are. If you are a warrior, make sure you have 1 or 2 more conditions/hexes available to cast.

Yes there is lol, AP Caller is the best thing to prime Discord tbh but wars have trouble using all of it because of energy but just drop Sin support in that case.

Daesu · Feb 21, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Yes there is lol, AP Caller is the best thing to prime Discord tbh but wars have trouble using all of it because of energy but just drop Sin support in that case.

AP fails in places with lots of hex removal. It is such a waste of warrior armor to put him in the backline with a staff when he could have been holding aggro and killing with splinter weapon. Besides a limited energy pool a warrior also has a very low energy regen. Only +2e regen which is only half that of a caster's. He has no energy regen bonus from his armor, unlike a caster and not being able to bring EVAS just makes him even weaker.

AP from a W/A even at level 12 deadly arts only returns 17 energy while AP+YMLAD+FH needs 25 energy. Furthermore, if my caster's AP is removed, her larger energy pool and +4 regen allows me to still continue casting some of the skills. For a warrior with a low energy pool and only +2 energy regen, he is just going to be reduced to wanding most of the time if his AP is removed. I just dont see how your warrior-caster can be more effective than my pimped up real warrior in actual combat.

Warriors just make poor casters period! Making a warrior into a caster is a noobish build.

Super Igor · Feb 21, 2009, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

AP fails in places with lots of hex removal. It is such a waste of warrior armor to put him in the backline with a staff when he could have been holding aggro and killing with splinter weapon. Besides a limited energy pool a warrior also has a very low energy regen. Only +2e regen which is only half that of a caster's. He has no energy regen bonus from his armor, unlike a caster and not being able to bring EVAS just makes him even weaker.

AP from a W/A even at level 12 deadly arts only returns 17 energy while AP+YMLAD+FH needs 25 energy. Furthermore, if my caster's AP is removed, her larger energy pool and +4 regen allows me to still continue casting some of the skills. For a warrior with a low energy pool and only +2 energy regen, he is just going to be reduced to wanding most of the time if his AP is removed. I just dont see how your warrior-caster can be more effective than my pimped up real warrior in actual combat.

Warriors just make poor casters period! Making a warrior into a caster is a noobish build.

Boring bad theorycrafting... ;o

Tank & spank is outdated and inefficient for general pve purposes much better to just power through everything making it assplode before it gets to you.

splinter isnt as good as you describe it, still only powerful in places with clustered enemies but even then I make up for splinter's damage in the time you run to them and try to ball them up somewhat but 2400 damage worth of Death Nova running around + putrid bile is enough.

Also, calling from melee is zzz thats why you cry about hex removal and strong healing owning you. AP can q-knock for 4 seconds and doesnt fear anti-melee stuff.

Wars can still be effective with AP just dont cast FH! every now and then and your energy should be fine or run something like Xun does as long as you have AP caller goodness its great.

Also, no u.

Daesu · Feb 21, 2009, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Wars can still be effective with AP just dont cast FH! every now and then and your energy should be fine or run something like Xun does as long as you have AP caller goodness its great.

Sure go take your +2 pip energy regen, 20e warrior and make him a caster in the backlines by all means. The warrior makes the worst possible caster of all the character classes. Making him into a gimped caster would just make him kill slower than all the other character classes.

If you want to play a real caster go play a necro, why even bother with a warrior? You are not making full use of the strengths of each character class by making everyone of them a caster. Putting a warrior whose weakness is in energy but with high armor, and making him a backline caster is just dumb.

My melee warrior kills faster than my necro but I bet my necro makes a better caster than your warrior-caster, so that means my warrior kills alot faster playing as a melee warrior than your poor excuse of a warrior-caster with +2 energy regen. Face it, your pvx build just sucks for a warrior.

The classes in GW are balanced with each character class having his own strengths and weaknesses. Your over-emphasis on casters against melee classes shows that you do not yet understand this.

Super Igor · Feb 22, 2009, 01:42 AM // 01:42

midline, not backline.

Daesu · Feb 22, 2009, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

midline, not backline.

And that would make your staff wielding warrior caster more effective? Right...

Refer to your pvx build recommendation for a W/A.

Super Igor · Feb 22, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

what warrior caster are you talking about Daesu?

Daesu · Feb 23, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

2) If you want to kill extremely fast but dont really care ab out poking stuf wih your sword run Discord but make sure to run it with a caller oherwise it doesnt work very well.

Stop it! Don't even try option 2. Suggesting a warrior to run a discord caller (as in your pvx discordway build) is just wrong. And you would be killing faster as a regular warrior anyway.

Super Igor · Feb 24, 2009, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Thats not true Daesu, even on a warrior AP+YMLaD is a godly Discord primer. Energy isnt a problem because well equipped good warrior wont camp one weapon set anyway. Are you camping one weapon set Daesu?

Also answer the question everyone is asking, why arent you running Sabway?

Daesu · Feb 24, 2009, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Thats not true Daesu, even on a warrior AP+YMLaD is a godly Discord primer.

Asking a warrior to play a caster is still a terrible idea.

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Energy isnt a problem because well equipped good warrior wont camp one weapon set anyway. Are you camping one weapon set Daesu?

It doesn't matter what weapon set you use, the warrior would only have a base 2 energy regen and that is whats important.

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Also answer the question everyone is asking, why arent you running Sabway?

You keep defending that your caster W/A pvx discord build "kill extremely fast". You should read your own pvx build discussion page. Nobody thinks that a warrior should use the build that you posted and you are still defending it here to the very end for the sake of your pride. And worse, actually recommending it for warriors in this thread.

Even if you claim that it is somewhat usable, it still under performs an average caster which is sad because a well built melee warrior and his team can perform alot better than most casters. Warrior != Gimped caster, so dont make him one.

I dont see whether I am using sabway or not has anything to do with what I just said.

Revelations · Feb 24, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

With regards to a warrior calling for discordway you are probably best off running Erf Shakur with Grasping Earth. Cheap relatively spammable AoE hex, fulfills part of discords requirement. Either leave conditioning up to your necros or take [withering aura|withering aura] on one of them.

For more braveness though, run as many copies of [Ray of Judgment|Ion Cannon] as possible, with you playing Erf Shakur.

Omgopolis · Feb 24, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45

I'll second the Earthshaker + RoJ monks. Just be sure to micro the RoJ so that the heroes don't waste it on moving targets. Smiters are a;sp a pretty cool addition to the team because they can pack condition and hex removal that the henchmen tend to lack, and with smiter's boon they can do some decent healing while still pumping out damage.