Curse

draugr · Mar 09, 2009, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Have been messing with [lyssa's aura] and came up with this to replace [searing flames] heroes, which I've always thought underperformed:

Me/E 12 fire 11 inspiration 11 fast cast

[lyssa's aura] [fire attunement] [mark of rodgort] [lava arrows] [flare] [cry of frustration] [power drain] [power return]

can replace an interrupt with recently buffed [ether feast] for a self-heal if desired.

The entire bar is cast on foes, so no prob keeping [lyssa's aura] up. ODs a [discord] spammer on MOD and adds perpetual "nearby" aoe burning, better energy management than a necro provided [lyssa's aura] isn't stripped, which together with the damage not being armor ignoring like [discord] seems to be the only downsides.

FoxBat · Mar 09, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

That and the fact that lava arrows does like, half the damage.

Just put power drain and waste not on your eles if so concerned with energy.

TalanRoarer · Mar 09, 2009, 08:46 PM // 20:46

I assume your using your SF heroes in NM, otherwise scrap eles altogether.
Though i dont exactly see how this is gonna replace the damage SF does on nm...
so the ele has energy this way? WHats the use if he can do barely any AoE dmg?

A H O Y T · Mar 09, 2009, 08:49 PM // 20:49

^
Damage output isn't as good as a SF, and it has no AoE damage..

Eragon Zarroc · Mar 09, 2009, 09:11 PM // 21:11

u perfected a flareway mesmer! =D

I Will Heal You Ally · Mar 09, 2009, 09:13 PM // 21:13

If only heroes knew how to spamm Flare

TheodenKing · Mar 09, 2009, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

to replace [searing flames] heroes, which I've always thought underperformed...

The entire bar is cast on foes, so no prob keeping [lyssa's aura] up.

Ummm... 1) What does casting on foes have to do with keeping [lyssa's aura] up? and 2) [searing flames] underperforms? You must be fighting destroyers.

Your new heroes' contribution to the team appears to be interupts and burning, while [discord] heroes contribute really quick kills, minions, healing, and some prot.

Having a choice, I'll stick with discordway (or smiters if enemy hex removal is a problem).

Necromas · Mar 09, 2009, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenC777

I assume your using your SF heroes in NM, otherwise scrap eles altogether.

I disagree, nukers sure take a big hit from the higher armor, but snares can be invaluable in a team that has to prevent AoE scatter. The current gimmick builds seem to avoid scatter entirely though, because discord (for obvious reasons) and RoJ (for bug reasons?) don't cause scatter.

A H O Y T · Mar 09, 2009, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Ummm... 1) What does casting on foes have to do with keeping

Factions Lyssa's Aura

* 30
* 1
* 5

Elite Enchantment Spell. For 10 seconds, you have +0..4..5 Energy regeneration. This enchantment reapplies itself every time you cast a spell on a foe. (Attrib: Inspiration Magic)

up?

Reapplies itself every time you cast a spell on a foe... that.

draugr · Mar 09, 2009, 10:13 PM // 22:13

@ foxbat [lava arrows] is half range, not half damage

@ BenC777 thinking of including this in HM with two discorders for the fast aoe hex [mark of rodgort] and aoe condition [lava arrows] application, have done so in a norn run and it worked very well. Ran it with one discorder and one of these: [lyssa's aura] [zealot's fire] [reversal of damage] [smite hex] [smite condition] [smite] [cry of frustration] [power return]

@ AHOYT you are wrong. SF dps on MOD is 29 with near constant "nearby" aoe burning and energy depletion that could be used on other spells.

Lava/Flare dps under mark of rodgort on MOD is 47 with constant "nearby" aoe burning and no energy depletion.

test it yourself...

@ I will heal you ally, the build lavas/flares perfectly, give it a try.

@ Theodenking, the skill description on GWG is outdated. [Lyssa's aura] now provides 3-4 pips of energy regen that is constant provided something is cast on a foe at least every ten seconds. Since every skill in the bar is cast on foe, even [ether feast], the pips stay up the entirety of combat.

As far as fast killing goes, just did a discord test on MOD, with me applying the conditions so all the hero had to do was spam discord. DPS was only 35, which of course doesn't tell the whole story as MOD armor is low and mobs, especially HM mobs armor is higher. Going to time how long it takes discord to knock down the 100 armor suit v lava/flare and will post the results. Never suggested that the build I posted was a replacement for discord, glad to see the the reading comprehension on these forums is still so "high."

FoxBat · Mar 09, 2009, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Tack [Mark of Rodgort] onto an solo-SF and you get the same damage. Except it's all AoE instead of half of it being single-target flare damage. (MoD only reports single-target damage.) Also

[Glyph of Lesser Energy][Aura of Restoration][Glowing Gaze]

is all the energy management you need. The aura buff makes a huge difference, you don't even need mesmer skills to keep them going indefinitely anymore, while the mesmer gets himself down into sub-10 energy on MoD. Of course you can still throw inspiration interrupts in there to do something more useful.

Of course generally by SF HEROES you'd be taking all three, who synergize with themselves pretty well. And they aren't screwed waiting for mark to recharge on enemies that died well before the 15 sec recharge hit. For a solo-fire ele you'd play with [Mind Blast] or [Savannah Heat]

Anyway I hear [Suffering][Enfeebling Blood] is pretty good fire-and-forget discord setup, and surprise, you can even put Discord and random mez interrupts on that very same bar.

draugr · Mar 09, 2009, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Just tested the lava/flare spam v discordway on the 100 AL dummy several times. I tested discord by applying the condition and hex myself (which is not particularly realistic as many mobs run around with a hex but no condition and vice versa) and disabling every other skill on the hero's bar but discord so all it had to do was spam discord. I locked the target then clicked my stopwatch. On the lava/flare hero, I had the hero precast lyssa's and mark of rodgort and then locked the target and clicked the stopwatch.

The discord hero knocked down the dummy in a relatively consistent 13-15 seconds. Sometimes it would wand when discord was up instead of casting, causing longer times.

The lava/flare hero knocked down the dummy in a relatively consistent 14-16 seconds. In my 5 or so runs, it never wanded when it should have been casting, but have seen this in the past. Of note is that depending on how many times the hero decided to cast lava arrows v flare, the 60 AL dummy was dead or at 1/3 health or below, and the 80 AL dummy was at half health or so, so the aoe effect of lava arrows and the burning from rodgort was significant.

I didn't test a SF hero, as based on MOD testing, the lava/flare hero is going to beat it handily.

I don't know the AL of many HM mobs, the greater than 100 it is, the better discord will do, and the lower, the better lava/flare will do. Because of the large aoe damage of the lava/flare hero, and the fact that its energy bar stays full for interrupt casting, it might be worth trying it as a replacement for one of the discord heroes in a build where the area is full of lower AL casterish mobs.

Moreover, the damage from the lava/flare hero is unconditional, so it's always nuking. Sometimes even in hex and condition heavy builds, you sit around waiting for the h/h to apply a condition or hex to that last mob so the discorders can mow it down. During times such as this, the lava/flare will be still applying damage and aoe burning.

infamous16 · Mar 09, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

Just tested the lava/flare spam v discordway on the 100 AL dummy several times. I tested discord by applying the condition and hex myself (which is not particularly realistic as many mobs run around with a hex but no condition and vice versa) and disabling every other skill on the hero's bar but discord so all it had to do was spam discord. I locked the target then clicked my stopwatch. On the lava/flare hero, I had the hero precast lyssa's and mark of rodgort and then locked the target and clicked the stopwatch.

The discord hero knocked down the dummy in a relatively consistent 13-15 seconds. Sometimes it would wand when discord was up instead of casting, causing longer times.

The lava/flare hero knocked down the dummy in a relatively consistent 14-16 seconds. In my 5 or so runs, it never wanded when it should have been casting, but have seen this in the past. Of note is that depending on how many times the hero decided to cast lava arrows v flare, the 60 AL dummy was dead or at 1/3 health or below, and the 80 AL dummy was at half health or so, so the aoe effect of lava arrows and the burning from rodgort was significant.

I didn't test a SF hero, as based on MOD testing, the lava/flare hero is going to beat it handily.

I don't know the AL of many HM mobs, the greater than 100 it is, the better discord will do, and the lower, the better lava/flare will do. Because of the large aoe damage of the lava/flare hero, and the fact that its energy bar stays full for interrupt casting, it might be worth trying it as a replacement for one of the discord heroes in a build where the area is full of lower AL casterish mobs.

Moreover, the damage from the lava/flare hero is unconditional, so it's always nuking. Sometimes even in hex and condition heavy builds, you sit around waiting for the h/h to apply a condition or hex to that last mob so the discorders can mow it down. During times such as this, the lava/flare will be still applying damage and aoe burning.

thats why you are supposed to apply a hex and condition

and discord would be much better in HM

TheodenKing · Mar 09, 2009, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

Never suggested that the build I posted was a replacement for discord, glad to see the the reading comprehension on these forums is still so "high."

I didn't notice the new description on Lyssa's Aura. Thanks for clarifying. With respect to "reading comprehension," your post compares LA to Discord and claims it outdoes it. (Or does OD mean something else)? Also, discordway is typically a 3-hero or more setup to work most efficiently, so using your mesmer implies replacing discord heroes.

I guess if there are 2 or more humans in the party, this mes would be an ok replacement for Zho. But really, I haven't had much of a problem using Zho. she rocks the interupts and seems to stay alive pretty well with her fancy ranger armor.

draugr · Mar 09, 2009, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Tack [Mark of Rodgort] onto an solo-SF and you get the same damage.

and poor energy management, but fair enough, will test this and post the results. I'm well aware of how the MOD works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

[Glyph of Lesser Energy][Aura of Restoration][Glowing Gaze]

Heroes mismanage the above other than [aura of restoration] miserably. Often, they will open with glowing gaze before there is any burning or use it when nothing is burning. Likewise, they often waste GOLE on 5 energy casts. Haven't tested this in awhile, so they may have improved the AI but I doubt it. Again, will test it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

while the mesmer gets himself down into sub-10 energy on MoD. Of course you can still throw inspiration interrupts in there to do something more useful.

The opposite is actually the case. The lava/flare hero's bar stays full whereas the SF depletes fairly quickly, especially so if adding in [mark of rodgort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Of course generally by SF HEROES you'd be taking all three, who synergize with themselves pretty well. And they aren't screwed waiting for mark to recharge on enemies that died well before the 15 sec recharge hit. For a solo-fire ele you'd play with [Mind Blast] or [Savannah Heat]

Not familiar with how heroes use savannah heat, but know they don't use mindblast well, also know that many mobs have high energy, screwing up mindblast. Gave up on an effective hero mindblast build long ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Anyway I hear [Suffering][Enfeebling Blood] is pretty good fire-and-forget discord setup, and surprise, you can even put Discord and random mez interrupts on that very same bar.

Not suggesting replacing all discorders, maybe one in areas with lower AL HM mobs or fire vulnerable mobs. The lava/flare hero also applies aoe hex and conditions quickly, and will always cast rodgort (30 sec duration) when it's up. Not so sure about the necro curses. Sometimes I wonder at what they are choosing to cast and when.

draugr · Mar 09, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheodenKing

With respect to "reading comprehension," your post compares LA to Discord and claims it outdoes it.

I claimed that it ODed discord on the MOD, which has low armor, not that it ODed in HM. I simply don't know the ALs in HM.

JoeKnowMo · Mar 09, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

1. Eles can spec upto 16 in Fire, doing 106 dmg with SF vs. 56 dmg with Lava arrows (@ 12 Fire). That's nearly double.

2. Mark of Rodgort has a 15s recharge. Heroes may use it on a single target who could be killed quickly leaving you with 10+ seconds without a method to apply burning. Searing Flames recharges in 2s.

3. Lava arrows is a half-distance spell which can often mean death for a hero caster, especially in HM. There is also a little bit of time wasted when the hero has to take those few extra steps to get into spell-casting range.

4. Lava arrows hits only 3 targets max. SF has no target limit. If you run into a large mob or overaggro, Lava arrows is not only doing 50 dmg less than SF, it's doing zero dmg if there are more than 3 foes bunched up. That's a HUGE difference in DPS.

5. As pointed out by others, the SF ele has no energy problems if you use Glowing gaze, GoLE, and Fire Attunement. Add SF to that bar and you still have room for 4 Mesmer skills.

Besides a small advantage in casting speed, your M/E build offers nothing else. I find it hard to see how the small gain in casting speed makes up for the loss of DPS as well as the lack of guaranteed perpetual burning.

FoxBat · Mar 10, 2009, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

1. Eles can spec upto 16 in Fire, doing 106 dmg with SF vs. 56 dmg with Lava arrows (@ 12 Fire). That's nearly double.

The test numbers come from alternating lava darts with flare spam. As I mentioned the flare half isn't AoE. In fact I even tried microing Echo to duplicate lava darts, and the single-target DPS was lower than SF.

And yes if you're soloing the same target with 1 SFer and no mark, it is inferior. Of course mark has that whole 15s recharge thing, and you can always tack mark onto SH builds too.

Admittedly SF eles did have energy issues before the aura buff and I did stick inspiration skills on their bar, but with the new aura it's completely unnecessary. Although inspiration interrupts may be more useful than glyph or glowing. Regardless an ele primary running [Searing Flames] makes more sense.

Also [SH;OgBDgmy8O4CyaxoISMk++CBA] = 60 DPS on MoD, while we are relying on his obvious testing limitations.

draugr · Mar 10, 2009, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Just tested the SF ele (15 fire magic) without the mes skills, [searing flames] [glyph of lesser energy] [glowing gaze] [aura of restoration] [fire attunement] [mark of rodgort] and was surprised at how well the AI uses the skills now as opposed to when I last played regularly about a year ago. You are correct that the energy management is good, much better than in the past. The hero never cast [glowing gaze] poorly, but then didn't have much of a chance to as MOD was always burning. Will need to test [glowing gaze] in the field to see if its AI is better these days. The hero seemed to use GOLE well also, I didn't catch it wasting it on gaze as in the past and running out of energy.

The SF ele tested at 38 dps with [mark of rodgort] and without the mes spells i had used in the past on the MOD versus 47 dps for the lava/flare hero. Yes, more unmeasured damage was done by the SF hero on the adjacent targets. There was downtime during the test also for recasts of GOLE which might not be an issue in shorter fights.

On the 100 AL suit, the SF takes 17-20 seconds to knock it down v a consistent 16ish for the lava/flare. The damage to the 60 and 80 suits seemed comparable between the two.

One advantage that the SF has is the ambient healing of [aura of restoration]. I don't know how to quantify this.

Two advantages of the lava/flare would be 1. one more free slot in the bar and 2. faster casting of a big aoe like fire storm or meteor if one is desired.

Based on better AI now than in the past, and some skill changes, the SF is a better hero than I remembered, but still believe the lava/flare has an edge. I don't find the half range on lava flare to be a big issue out in the field.

draugr · Mar 10, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

1. Eles can spec upto 16 in Fire, doing 106 dmg with SF vs. 56 dmg with Lava arrows (@ 12 Fire). That's nearly double.

My ele hero is 15 fire magic and was still ODed by the lava/flare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

2. Mark of Rodgort has a 15s recharge. Heroes may use it on a single target who could be killed quickly leaving you with 10+ seconds without a method to apply burning. Searing Flames recharges in 2s. .

Sure it's possible, but more often, since the lava flare casts mark as its first cast, it gets several mobs for the 30 second duration. Also a very long hex for discord to work with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

3. Lava arrows is a half-distance spell which can often mean death for a hero caster, especially in HM. There is also a little bit of time wasted when the hero has to take those few extra steps to get into spell-casting range.

Have only tested this in Varajar Fells, and there, it hasn't been an issue. Mobs seem to head straight for the henchies or sometimes the curse necro first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

4. Lava arrows hits only 3 targets max. SF has no target limit. If you run into a large mob or overaggro, Lava arrows is not only doing 50 dmg less than SF, it's doing zero dmg if there are more than 3 foes bunched up. That's a HUGE difference in DPS. .

You are luckier than I am if you are getting them clustered up frequently. I rarely see it, even with cows they seem to run around more these days. Sometimes with good corner pulling I see your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

5. As pointed out by others, the SF ele has no energy problems if you use Glowing gaze, GoLE, and Fire Attunement. Add SF to that bar and you still have room for 4 Mesmer skills.

Agreed, used to not be so in my experience, however if you don't have [mark of rodgort] or another SF ele, the dps suffers (32 dps on MOD), and also need [aura of restoration], so by my count it takes six skills to get the best dps, leaving two, not four. The lava/flare has three free slots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Besides a small advantage in casting speed, your M/E build offers nothing else. I find it hard to see how the small gain in casting speed makes up for the loss of DPS as well as the lack of guaranteed perpetual burning.

The SF even with mark of rodgort does about 25% less dps than the lava/flare, and the burning is fairly perpetual. Test it on MOD for yourself.

But saying again, agree that the SF heroes are better than they used to be based on skill buffs and better AI.