Curse

Rhamia Darigaz · Apr 22, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

what's the point of RC or PnH when you have 8 copies of foul feast? pve in guild wars is boring as hell so i prefer playing hot potato with my condition stacks instead of removing them.

edit: why was my thread detailing the new and exciting hot potato game deleted? -.-

Paul Dawg · Apr 22, 2009, 05:00 AM // 05:00

That's exactly why we say that heroes are good at using [restore condition]. It's a condition-remover AND a heal, all with a low energy cost and quick recharge. If heroes waited around with it till people had multiple conditions on them, they'd be wasting their elite slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

In my experience, even though RC has a low recharge, heroes use it poorly b/c they start spamming it on everyone just to remove 1 condition at a time...

Meridon · Apr 22, 2009, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Since I've gotten NF and later EOTN I have been messing with my hero skillbars to make them as effective as possible, and interchangeable as well. I like working with a fixed bar on my hero, so each hero has his own setup and can be swapped out for another with a different role if needed. Most of my builds are effective in any team composition, and they all have different purposes.

Monks:

Healer:
[dwayna's kiss][healing touch][vigorous spirit][dismiss condition][aegis][glyph of lesser energy][healer's boon][remove hex]

11+1 prot, 10+1+1 healing, 10+1 divine favor. Dismiss condition can be swapped out for heal party if neccesary

Prot:
[reversal of fortune][dismiss condition][divine healing][heaven's delight][aegis][glyph of lesser energy][unyielding aura][remove hex]

12+1+1 prot, 12+1 divine favor. I tend to stay away from 10e skills of this bar because of the 3 regen. Variants can be shield of absorbtion/spirit bond instead of dismiss condition/reversal of fortune.

One problem I have found with those builds is that heroes sometimes don't use Glyph of Lesser Energy effectively. They seem to understand that it reduces up to 10 energy per spell, so they sometimes only cast 10e skills while under the effects of this glyph. This becomes a problem when all 10e skills are recharging. In that case, the monk sometimes goes numb.

I also use a N/mo to complete the backline:

[foul feast][infuse condition][death nova][animate shambling horror][animate bone minions][jagged bones][blood of the master][aegis]

12+1+1 Death magic (cause I don't like superior runes on this guy, AI targets low health party members, and you don't want this guy to die in the middle of combat), 9+1 soul reaping, 9 prot. This looks a lot like the jagged bomber from Sabway. Don't consider it a gimmick though, I actually came up with the concept myself too, whilist unaware of the existence of Sabway at the time of course.

The great thing about this hero combination is that you have a permanent Aegis chain, and you can put all monks to avoid combat. This way, they can dedicate all their time to keeping the party alive, and they won't waste time on wanding enemies.

As for caster midline, I have two elementalist builds that I want to share.

Fire mage:
[searing flames][searing heat][glowing gaze][teinai's heat][glyph of lesser energy][fire attunement][meteor shower][aura of restoration]

12+1+1 fire magic, 12+1 Estorage. I tend to disable Meteor shower on this guy, so I can manual it when needed to shut down a healer or mob. It also prevents the hero from putting too much pressure on himself in terms of energy. With Meteor shower disabled, the hero is still incredibly effective at blowing things up, and still has amazing firepower, so don't be afraid to disable it.

Water mage:
[freezing gust][blurred vision][glowing ice][deep freeze][maelstrom][water attunement][glyph of lesser energy][ward against harm]

12+1+1 water magic, 12+1 Estorage. This hero is a great midliner as it's able to migitate damage by harrassing enemies. The deep freeze + maelstrom combo is lethal to casters. At the same time, freezing gust shut down melee attackers. ward against harm is a great tool in missions with lots of fire damage such as the Ring of Fire missions in prophecies. All in all, this guy has both damage, protection, and damage migitation in one. His only letdown is that he has less energy management than the fire ele because he lacks Aura of restoration, and has two 25e spells.

Mesmer:

[power spike][cry of frustration][tease][guilt][mistrust][empathy][power drain][resurrection signet]

12+1+1 domination magic, 10+1 inspiration magic, 8+1 fast casting. This guy is still kindof a work in progress. He is a bit unbalanced in the fact that he might be carrying a little too much anti-caster. Still, that's his purpose. I like using this bar on my mesmer hero in areas with tricky casters, with things like Meteor Shower, Energy surge, and the like. A good example would be Tombs. This guy has surprisingly good AoE through Cry of Frustration, Tease, and Mistrust. Emanagement is also in good quantity through tease and power drain, and also guilt. I recommend using this if you face an area with very tricky caster mobs, as this guy can pretty much shut them down completely.

Warrior:

[flail][for great justice!][dismember][agonizing chop][cleave][cyclone axe][lion's comfort][resurrection signet]

12+1+1 axe mastery, 12+1 strength. A basic axe warrior. His pro's are definitely ease of use, and strong pressure. He's able to charge into mobs, build adrenaline with cyclone axe, and then spike them down with his adrenaline combo. Many people don't like cleave, but personally, I love it on my hero, as it's so simple to use, and heroes can use it great. All in all, this is just a great standard frontline hero bar, with great pressure.

These heroes are able to fulfill the basic roles of their profession up to a good level of effectiveness and efficiency. As a full party of 8, these roles together are also pretty balanced. With the addition of perhaps another warrior, curser or ranger, all builds can be used together if two players take on the roles of two of the above mentioned builds. Of course, they can be modded to contain for example Death Pact signet, but these are just the basic templates.

Hope this helped.

Super Igor · Apr 22, 2009, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

P&H is more universal relative to RC because it handles both conditions and hexes, instead of just conditions and it can be self-targeting. Bar compression ftw.

If I need red barring I would bring an unconditional heal rather than one that only heals if you have a condition.

frigin fanboy..

Condition removal side of PnH is hardly relevant since it wont be enough or worth it keeping your party free of conditions with it. PnH is only useful to keep a key character free of deadly hexes and conditions, for example when you play melee in an area with loads of anti-melee hexes being spammed at you. If you are looking to make use of hexes and conditions being spammed at you (not importantly deadly) [restore condition] or [divert hexes] is a better choice for you since they would give large ammounts of hp back.

Daesu · Apr 22, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

frigin fanboy..

Condition removal side of PnH is hardly relevant since it wont be enough or worth it keeping your party free of conditions with it. PnH is only useful to keep a key character free of deadly hexes and conditions, for example when you play melee in an area with loads of anti-melee hexes being spammed at you. If you are looking to make use of hexes and conditions being spammed at you (not importantly deadly) [restore condition] or [divert hexes] is a better choice for you since they would give large ammounts of hp back.

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you on P&H.

But I have said before, in situations that bringing RC would be useful, bringing a WoH hybrid with non-elite condition removal would be more useful. Also, how common are necro heroes and MM? Would a single Foul Feast work better than RC? By building a primary monk around a single target condition removing elite skill, that can't self-target, is just not worth it in most practical situations.

Konker2020 · Apr 22, 2009, 08:20 PM // 20:20

A decent case with RC would be to bring a Nec hero with FF, so when the conditions are pulled, mnok can target... but the AI is too dumb...

Super Igor · Apr 22, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

A decent case with RC would be to bring a Nec hero with FF, so when the conditions are pulled, mnok can target... but the AI is too dumb...

At least it will pull conditions off the monk.

Paul Dawg · Apr 23, 2009, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Well, one thing that has come out of this thread is that [foul feast] is the undisputed king of condition-removal skills. The reason why we had to argue so much was that YOU set it as a condition, right at the start of the thread, that you didn't want to bring necroes. That meant we had to do a lot of arguing about the best condition-removal skills for monks, and finally (I think) some of us were able to convince the rest that [restore condition] is as good as it gets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

Oh... don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it isn't amusing, so far the arguments have made this thread fun... I just think if the arguing stops and we can all agree on a certain setup we can move on, I keep meaning to post more builds but I never have time, I've been spending a lot of time at work, I'll definately put some more up this weekend...

Daesu · Apr 23, 2009, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Well, one thing that has come out of this thread is that [foul feast] is the undisputed king of condition-removal skills. The reason why we had to argue so much was that YOU set it as a condition, right at the start of the thread, that you didn't want to bring necroes. That meant we had to do a lot of arguing about the best condition-removal skills for monks, and finally (I think) some of us were able to convince the rest that [restore condition] is as good as it gets.

RC is not sucky, but in general pve, there are usually better choices even for a primary monk build than to bring that. A simple WoH hybrid trumps it.

Also in practice, there are not many effective hero builds that doesn't have a MM or a necro in it.

If you think an RC monk should be brought along, you should counter why it is better than WoH hybrid for general pve because I haven't seen anyone making that argument yet. If it is not as good as a WoH hybrid and RC is not as good as a necro's FF then why even have this argument (besides just for the sake of argument)?

Paul Dawg · Apr 24, 2009, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Because he wanted a prot hero. The one thing you can't seem to comprehend throughout this whole thread is that we're giving suggestions for the OP--not necessarily builds or combinations that we'd like for ourselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If you think an RC monk should be brought along, you should counter why it is better than WoH hybrid for general pve because I haven't seen anyone making that argument yet. If it is not as good as a WoH hybrid and RC is not as good as a necro's FF then why even have this argument (besides just for the sake of argument)?

Daesu · Apr 24, 2009, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Because he wanted a prot hero. The one thing you can't seem to comprehend throughout this whole thread is that we're giving suggestions for the OP--not necessarily builds or combinations that we'd like for ourselves.

Even though a prot hero sucks compared to a WoH hybrid.

And you dont know what builds I run for myself yet. I dont always run discordway or sabway.

The best build for an area is always one that is customized for the area.

toocooltang · Apr 24, 2009, 08:35 PM // 20:35

I bring RC or Divert hexes on my MM because I don't find the death magic elites to be to useful all the time.

Super Igor · Apr 25, 2009, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Even though a prot hero sucks compared to a WoH hybrid.

And you dont know what builds I run for myself yet. I dont always run discordway or sabway.

The best build for an area is always one that is customized for the area.

I bet you never ran Discordway since you have no clue how to and WoH is a strong hero monk build but not ultimate monk build as you are trying to make it look like.