Curse

distilledwill · Dec 22, 2008, 10:41 AM // 10:41

^Yeah they seem to chain Aegis pretty well. Although 2 copies is enough, you're unlikely to need constant 50% blocking as most enemies shouldnt last long, and any enemies which are left after 18s of Aegis will not pose too much of a threat considering the amount of heals/prots.

ps. I love "Standart of Windson".

daze · Dec 22, 2008, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Unless someone would recommend which 3 of the 6 heroes to take.

It should take too much common sense to cone to the conclusion that you should take one of each of the 3 lines (smiter, healer, and protter)

the builds dont have much diversity aside from the one having [[smite hex] and the other having [[smite condition]

but just in cast ill do it for you

Smiter I
[build prof=Mo/Me smi=12 div=10 ins=8][ray of judgment][castigation signet][reversal of damage][smite condition][heavens delight][divine healing][smiters boon][power drain][/build]

Prot II
[build prof=Mo/E pro=10 smi=12 div=8][ray of judgment][castigation signet][reversal of damage][smite hex][smiters boon][shield of absorption][aegis][glyph of lesser energy][/build]

Heal I
[build prof=Mo/Rt hea=10 smi=12 div=8][ray of judgment][castigation signet][divine intervention][smite condition][healing whisper][signet of rejuvenation][patient spirit][death pact signet][/build]

there you go or you could even take the other 3 just because the builds are soo similar.

Smiter II
[build prof=Mo/Me smi=12 div=10 ins=8][ray of judgment][castigation signet][reversal of damage][smite hex][heavens delight][divine healing][smiters boon][power drain][/build]
Prot I
[build prof=Mo/E pro=10 smi=12 div=8][ray of judgment][castigation signet][judges intervention][smite condition][smiters boon][protective spirit][aegis][glyph of lesser energy][/build]
Heal II
[build prof=Mo/Rt hea=10 smi=12 div=8][ray of judgment][castigation signet][reversal of damage][smite hex][healing whisper][signet of rejuvenation][patient spirit][death pact signet][/build]

or for the diversity you could do
Smiter II
[build prof=Mo/Me smi=12 div=10 ins=8][ray of judgment][castigation signet][reversal of damage][smite hex][heavens delight][divine healing][smiters boon][power drain][/build]
Prot I
[build prof=Mo/E pro=10 smi=12 div=8][ray of judgment][castigation signet][judges intervention][smite condition][smiters boon][protective spirit][aegis][glyph of lesser energy][/build]
Heal I
[build prof=Mo/Rt hea=10 smi=12 div=8][ray of judgment][castigation signet][divine intervention][smite condition][healing whisper][signet of rejuvenation][patient spirit][death pact signet][/build]
that way you can have [[reversal of damage], [[judges intervention]and [[divine intervention] on your team and still retain the better protter with [[aegis], [[protective spirit]

arturfel · Dec 22, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Ray of Judgment update description: Invoke a Ray of Judgement at target foe's location. For 5 seconds, target foe and all foes adjacent to this location take 5...37...45 holy damage each second and begin Burning for 1...3...3 seconds.

* 10 Energy
* 2 Activation
* 20 Recharge

-Lotus- · Dec 22, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

looks pretty good. that should work just fine. I thik I would replace one of the dedicated smiters with another prot bar for the aegis chain. aso try /me on the prot monks and lose smiter's boon to take 2 inspiration skills. That should solve the energy problems.

BrettM · Dec 22, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Won't all the Smite Hex/Condition cause scattering in HM? I suggest replacing these with other hex/condition removers for vanquishing, and I'm not sure the team really needs three of each.

With two healers and two protters on the team, I would be inclined to give the smiters more smiting. Use signets if energy is a problem, and Bane Signet in particular for knockdowns. If energy is not a problem, then Smite or Spear of Light might not be bad choices.

I'm not terribly fond of Death Pact as a hard rez. Particularly if it is the only hard rez, making it difficult to recover from a near wipe. At least one of the monks should be carrying an alternative, IMO.

Abedeus · Dec 22, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Healing Whisper sucks.

Divine/Judge's Intervention too.

Although Interrupts might be a bit iffy way of e-management on heroes. Glyph ftw.

Unforgivable Necro · Dec 22, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Well,Its gonna have to be synced to actually work well..? I agree the downtime on the main DPS is a bit to long for the builds to actually do enough dmg to take out big mobs.ect

zwei2stein · Dec 22, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

You really want to delve deeper into secondaries, you have some pointless redundancies.

example: [build=OwYTkU3C1xnV9t+4VVHs4VgMAA]

Daesu · Dec 22, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

I'm not terribly fond of Death Pact as a hard rez. Particularly if it is the only hard rez, making it difficult to recover from a near wipe. At least one of the monks should be carrying an alternative, IMO.

DPS is actually a good choice IF you are vanquishing because it keeps one of the heroes from reaching 60DP and lowers the chance of you getting kicked out (not accounting for consummables that is). It also produces more corpses for your MM as a side effect.

On the other hand, DPS is a bad choice when you are in a mission where a single party wipe would cause you to fail rather than res in a shrine. Switch the DPS for FOMF instead.

Daesu · Dec 22, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Not much utility other than damage and heals. No enchant removal, no buffs, etc.

The 3-man version has no heals. I tried it in more advanced areas in HM, damage is good but you still dont get to kill an entire HM mob in 2s, so healing and res are needed.

Good build but if you want to pit this to be in the same level as sabway/discordway, I have to be more critical.

Burst Cancel · Dec 22, 2008, 08:29 PM // 20:29

I call it beamway in accordance with the community's idiotic "-way" naming convention. "Ion cannon" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.

Some notes:
- Easy access to Aegis makes Ward v. Melee unnecessary. Ward of Stability is probably the only ward I'd bother taking, and that's only in certain areas. Persistent KD protection just isn't that important in PvE outside of a few special cases.
- Ideally, one of the human players should be an SY! spammer, which allows us to take a lot of defense off the monk bars. You could actually switch a few from Mo/* to N/Mo for better emgt and flexibility (minions, hexes, etc.).
- Don't go crazy on Smite Condition/Hex; they're not that good. Ditto for Smiter's Boon.

Daesu · Dec 22, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

- Ideally, one of the human players should be an SY! spammer, which allows us to take a lot of defense off the monk bars. You could actually switch a few from Mo/* to N/Mo for better emgt and flexibility (minions, hexes, etc.).

Like I have said, it is still not on the same level as sabway or discordway yet comparing the 3-man version with their 3-man version. But it can be improved upon.

I still get team wiped in certain HM areas that I would normally succeed with sabway/discordway.

Burst Cancel · Dec 22, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

I don't think anyone imagines that beamway is as effective as sab/discordway in its current form, so there's no reason to continue to raise that point.

The main issue with beamway is that getting max damage out of RoJ isn't trivial in general; the AoE is both small and stationary. Smiting Prayers is also a weaker skill line than Death Magic, and necros are superior to monks as a general caster class due to their emgt options. I'm not convinced that the build will ever be able to overcome these fundamental problems - not to the point of matching the current necro teams, anyway.

Daesu · Dec 22, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I don't think anyone imagines that beamway is as effective as sab/discordway in its current form, so there's no reason to continue to raise that point.

The main issue with beamway is that getting max damage out of RoJ isn't trivial in general; the AoE is both small and stationary. Smiting Prayers is also a weaker skill line than Death Magic, and necros are superior to monks as a general caster class due to their emgt options. I'm not convinced that the build will ever be able to overcome these fundamental problems - not to the point of matching the current necro teams, anyway.

I guess I am alittle more optimistic than you are then. I think the build has promise to be the next sabway.

If primary necros work better, then what about using N/Mos instead? I agree with you that RoJ has a small range and heroes sometimes cast it on a moving target. To fix that, maybe we need a snare or minions to hold the aggro?

I think it definitely can be optimized further.

Burst Cancel · Dec 22, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Minions spread out the aggro rather than balling it up; given that RoJ isn't at all spammable, you need to maximize the damage from each cast. If each beam is only hitting a few enemies, the build fails. Furthermore, running RoJ on an MM is idiotic; Discord, Jagged, and Rt/N bombers are all universally better options.

The most success I've gotten is from tanking the enemies myself and microing the heroes as echo nukers. Disable the hero skills and flag them back; run in and ball them up, then echo spike with RoJ. Needless to say, it's a hell of a lot more work than AFKing discordway.

Ariena Najea · Dec 22, 2008, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I guess I am alittle more optimistic than you are then. I think the build has promise to be the next sabway.

If primary necros work better, then what about using N/Mos instead? I agree with you that RoJ has a small range and heroes sometimes cast it on a moving target. To fix that, maybe we need a snare or minions to hold the aggro?

I think it definitely can be optimized further.

The problem is that smiting prayers has fewer skills to quickly deal damage. Discord teams have [Death Nova], [Putrid Bile], [Putrid Explosion] to cause additional AoE damage on death, which works perfectly with the quickly recharging [Discord]. Smiting has no skills that can match this damage potential.

The advantage of "Monkway" is that you have additional support utility not present in Sabway or Discord teams. Having multiple instances of condition/hex removers and additional health recovery through [Reversal of Damage] and [Smiter's Boon] makes a difference. Although Discord heroes generally require only Discord on their bar (given that you have other sources of sufficient condition/hex pressure to meet Discord's requirement) the addition of quickly recharging utility (and possibly damaging as used in "Monkway") skills such as [smite condition] [smite hex] results in the overall reduction of damage done by that character. This is because Discord is a quickly recharging skill whose effectiveness lies in spamming it on recharge. In the case of the longer-recharging [Ray of Judgement] these additional spells may be cast without dealing less damage.

Something most people seem to be forgetting is that you can make an effective build without having all of your heroes be of the same profession with a similar bar. Why not run 5 Monk Heroes and add a Necromancer minion bomber? Changing one hero to a Necro with [Jagged Bones] [Death Nova] [Putrid Explosion] [Animate Bone Minions] and possibly [Meekness] [Mark of Pain] [Rip Enchantment] would serve to help mitigate damage done to the party, freeing up valuable skill slots previously reserved for healing, deal reliable non-targeted-AoE damage, and also keep enemy melee units in one spot for the optimal usage of Ray of Judgment.

Just some thoughts

syphonus · Dec 22, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Minions spread out the aggro rather than balling it up; given that RoJ isn't at all spammable, you need to maximize the damage from each cast. If each beam is only hitting a few enemies, the build fails.

Running an AP bar with ["you move like a dwarf!"] and [Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support] has been working well for me in that respect.

Quote:

Furthermore, running RoJ on an MM is idiotic; Discord, Jagged, and Rt/N bombers are all universally better options.

There's nothing idiotic about it. [Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom] goes a long way towards making RoJ more spammable.

I put it on my necroes and went for a spin-- basically d-way with RoJ- and loved it. It's the effeciency of discord with the afk love of sab.

FoxBat · Dec 23, 2008, 02:50 AM // 02:50

While everyone is obssessed with RoJ, it needs to be pointed out that this is a billion times more effective vs enemies that actually hex and condition you. Which isn't a fair number of places.

Total Rogue · Dec 23, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

I've been running smiteway with my warrior, it sorta looks like this:

[build prof=W/E][bulls strike][sever artery][gash][sun and moon slash][hundred blades][conjure frost][drunken master][sunspear rebirth signet][/build]
[build prof=Mo/E][signet of judgment][reversal of damage][smite condition][smite hex][castigation signet][smiter's boon][strength of honor][res sig][/build]
[build prof=Mo/N][signet of judgment][reversal of damage][smite condition][smite hex][castigation signet][smiter's boon][watchful healing][res sig][/build]

This is where the big variation comes in, if I run the Rit instead of the necro, I swap watchful healing on the Mo/N for rip enchantment. I run the rit in areas without alot of bodies. The elites on the monks is pretty variable too, I like SoJ 'cause of the knockdown, and hardmode without a snare and fighting irukundi in the Jade Sea is annoying.

[build prof=Rt/N][caretakers charge][bloodsong][mend body and soul][soothing memories][resilient weapon][protective was kaolai][ancestors rage][splinter weapon][/build]

[build prof=N/Mo][animate bone minions][jagged bones][death nova][blood of the master][protective spirit][aegis][rip enchantment][empty][/build]
Last slot is pretty optional.

I was running 3 smiters, but the removal got pretty pointless and overkill. Like the mobs can't keep up with the application of conditions and hexes before you kill them. The elites on the smiters are pretty variable too, you can run ray of judgment and have it be really effective, or even a divine favor elite if you want I suppose.

Burst Cancel · Dec 23, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

Running an AP bar with ["you move like a dwarf!"] and [Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support] has been working well for me in that respect.

Which ties up one or two enemies. Again, if RoJ is only hitting a few enemies, it's categorically worse than Discord.

Quote:

There's nothing idiotic about it. [Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom] goes a long way towards making RoJ more spammable.

I put it on my necroes and went for a spin-- basically d-way with RoJ- and loved it. It's the effeciency of discord with the afk love of sab.

I don't see how EBSW has anything to do with whether or not to run RoJ on the MM. The problem with RoJ on the MM is that it requires a high smiting spec when everything else the MM is running is in Death. A Discord or Jagged MM can run 12+1+1/9+1/9 with a third attribute line like heal/resto/prot. An RoJ MM will have to run something like 12 smite/9+1+1 death/9+1 SR, with overall weaker Death skills and no third skill line.

It's not the efficiency of discord; Discord is a direct-damage spam skill with an easy-to-meet condition. And if you're afking, a lot of those jesusbeams are missing or hitting only a few people.

Those of you talking about how you vanquished so-and-so area or did so-and-so mission with RoJ aren't demonstrating anything; it's well-known that HM PvE can be rolled even with bad builds. The question here is whether it's objectively better than discord/sabway. Granted, in certain areas smite builds in general are very powerful - widespread hex/condition pressure allows smite teams to leverage Smite Condition/Hex to improve damage output considerably, and undead enemies of any kind get steamrolled by any kind of holy damage. These situations are not in the majority, however.

Again, the best success I've had with this build is as a micro'd tank-'n-spank setup. Its effectiveness as a fire-and-forget H/H solution isn't nearly as high.

I'm also in agreement with Ariena Najea, in that it isn't necessary to run RoJ on every hero. It's likely that, especially in a 2/6 setup, a few slots are better used for other builds, such as the aforementioned minion bomber, or perhaps a snare/KD ele with Quake/Earthbind or Deep Freeze/Earthen Shackles. That is, if you want an autopilot RoJ build that works at the same level as Discordway.