Curse

papaschtroumpf · Apr 21, 2009, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Just for a change of pace, I want to trade Koss for Melonni.
The character I'm playing is a Barbs/MoP and AP build, so I need a hero that does physical damage, and the faster the better, but I want that hero to be pretty self sufficient.

I have very little experience playing a Dervish, and being new to the game, I'm still not quite sure how well the AI will play a build vs how I would play it as a human (I don;t have access to the Elite as the human player at the moment, so I cant' fully test it).

I was trying to go for plenty of useful enchantments since they're a big part of what Dervishes are about, and synergize wtih Mystic sweep. I also wanted decent damage, both physical and not, energy+health management, and attack speed boost since the faster they hit, the faster Barbs/Mark of Pain does its damage. I read in the hero sticky that Derv Heroes don't know how to properly self-strip enchantments, so I didn't go that route.

scythe: 12 +1 +1
Mysticism: 11 +1
Wind: the rest

[Heart of Fury][Whirling Charge][Zealous Renewal][Mystic Vigor][Reaper's Sweep][Chilling Victory][Eremite's Attack][Mystic Sweep]

not the PvE versions by the way, it's jsut an artifact of the forum skill icon system.

I made the mistake of testing this in Shards of Orr with just me and a Monk and we got creamed, but I guess it's a not a fair test.

zelgadissan · Apr 22, 2009, 12:15 AM // 00:15

First, if you want PvE versions of skills just add (PvE) to the skill - for example, [Mystic Sweep (PvE)]

Second, way too energy intensive. You're expecting at least the first three, if not four, skills to go up at the start of each battle, which is at least 30e from a 25e pool. 4 pips of regen, sure, but that's not gonna matter too much.

Zealous Renewal is an awful, awful skill. Think of it this way - you sacrifice 10e away from your attack skills at the start of your battle. 20s later, when the battle is either over or essentially over, you get some energy back. [[Attacker's Insight] is much better - it's like Glyph of Lesser Energy for attack skills, and you get the Mysticism bonus from it ending. Similarly, Whirling Charge is nice, but the IMS isn't really necessary and the IAS is already overrode by Heart of Fury. I would choose one or the other - I personally go for HoF.

Since I'm being so critical, I'll throw my own Melonni bar out there for people to rip on:
[insert scythe elite here][Mystic Sweep (PvE)@14][Chilling Victory (PvE)@14][Wild Blow][Attacker's [email protected]][Heart of [email protected]][Faithful [email protected]][Resurrection Signet]

Chilling Victory also sometimes gets replaced by [[Victorious [email protected]]. Faithful Intervention is kinda iffy, but it's nice to have a permanent enchantment for when I use Wounding Strike as the elite.

papaschtroumpf · Apr 22, 2009, 04:43 AM // 04:43

s'ok, I wouldn't throw it out ther eif I didn't expect people to criticize, as I said, I need the advice.
regarding the PvP thing, my post mentions that it's a quirk with the forum, it seems that if you simply put the skill name in [] it seems to pick the PvP version.

Paul Dawg · Apr 22, 2009, 05:17 AM // 05:17

AFAIK the most efficient dervish hero is the famous D/N orders guy:

[faithful intervention][arcane zeal][order of pain][dark fury][vow of piety][watchful intervention][mystic healing][dwayna's touch]

Now THAT is a bar that makes everyone else better!

But if I need to bring a dervish attacker, I use this D/W:

[faithful intervention][heart of fury][zealous renewal][conviction][victorious sweep][wounding strike][wild blow][resurrection signet]

Much less evil than the D/N, but a competent striker even in HM.

Cebe · Apr 22, 2009, 08:56 AM // 08:56

I really don't get why people insist on using Zealous Renewal. On a silly hero it will rarely be used in such a way that it provides a decent energy gain.

The OP's build isn't a bad start, and I'd agree with zelgadissan's suggested build. I've used just about the same build on my Dervish Hero for a while now, and it's a decent, solid build that they don't have much trouble using.

Xenomortis · Apr 22, 2009, 05:10 PM // 17:10

I don't understand why Zealous Renewal bars are considered superior to a necro spamming Orders or even an ele with Ether Renewal.

Zelgadissan's suggestions and reasoning seem sound enough. For an elite on a hero bar, I consider [Reaper's Sweep] and [Wounding Strike] to be largely equal.
I would suggest [Conviction] too, it's a sound form of defence that a dervish will really want, as their base armour level leaves them wanting. However, it does mean a spec into Earth Prayers.

If you're spamming MoP, I'd take some paragon heroes instead though.

papaschtroumpf · Apr 22, 2009, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

Whirling Charge is nice, but the IMS isn't really necessary and the IAS is already overrode by Heart of Fury. I would choose one or the other - I personally go for HoF.

so movement speed increases are not multiplicative?
then I agree with you that HoF is the better choice.

zelgadissan · Apr 22, 2009, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by papaschtroumpf

so movement speed increases are not multiplicative?
then I agree with you that HoF is the better choice.

Not sure I'm following you - Heart of Fury gives IAS, not movement speed. The IMS of Whirling Charge is good, and for some people 25% of both is far better than 33% of IAS. However, in a PvE environment, I rarely see enemies kiting outside of HM, so I stick with the faster attack speed. Also, since Whirling Charge is a stance, there's no Mysticism bonus from it ending, and if you use Conviction like Xenomortis has suggested (it's a good skill, but I ignore it since it'd be a fourth attribute), you'd have to choose one or the other.

If you're talking about the dual IAS being multiplicative:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiki

Changes in attack speeds are capped at 133% total for IAS (100% being your normal attack speed)

papaschtroumpf · Apr 22, 2009, 11:51 PM // 23:51

ha, sorry, I mean IAS, not IMS.
Thanks for the info. I don't really care about IMS on a hero, in fact, Koss has [Flail] and I never thought the reduced movement speed was a problem for him.

Paul Dawg · Apr 23, 2009, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Not that I'm wedded to it, but what's so bad about [zealous renewal]? Heroes use it mindlessly, meaning they try to keep it up constantly. Over the 20-second period that the enchantment is normally in effect, they'll be doing an average of 15 scythe attacks (counting IAS), but if you remember that they're probably going to hit more than one foe on several of those attacks, it will add up to a nice, if not overwhelming, net energy gain. Add in +20% enchantment on your scythe, and you have over 18 attacks, each one hitting up to three foes.

If they apply the enchantment when they aren't attacking, then oh well, it's a waste, but so what--that's not when they need the energy boost anyway.

No argument that the D/N is much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cebe

I really don't get why people insist on using Zealous Renewal. On a silly hero it will rarely be used in such a way that it provides a decent energy gain.

AtomicMew · Apr 23, 2009, 07:59 AM // 07:59

I generally dislike melee heroes. I can't see how taking one is better than taking the other standard-ish hero builds, like SS, n/rt healer, VoR, BHA etc.

For the sake of argument though, I'd probably try taking a tank-ish DW spammer like so:

[faithful intervention][vital boon][conviction][heart of fury][wounding strike][wild blow][mystic regeneration]

Cebe · Apr 23, 2009, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Not that I'm wedded to it, but what's so bad about [zealous renewal]? Heroes use it mindlessly, meaning they try to keep it up constantly. Over the 20-second period that the enchantment is normally in effect, they'll be doing an average of 15 scythe attacks (counting IAS), but if you remember that they're probably going to hit more than one foe on several of those attacks, it will add up to a nice, if not overwhelming, net energy gain. Add in +20% enchantment on your scythe, and you have over 18 attacks, each one hitting up to three foes.

I think you're calculations are a bit optimistic for a hero. Again, zelgadissan tells it like it is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

Zealous Renewal is an awful, awful skill. Think of it this way - you sacrifice 10e away from your attack skills at the start of your battle. 20s later, when the battle is either over or essentially over, you get some energy back.

Why would the hero need energy at the end of the fight? It's 10-energy worth of investment in an enchantment for no good reason. Even if you consider it to be a good skill, surely there must be other skills which you would see as superior to it? With enchantments flying around from Monks and the like a hero Dervish is usually OK for energy. Moreover, if energy is a concern, consider other skills such as [[Zealous Sweep] - high damage skill with energy return, but returns the energy instantly, and not when you probably least need it.

Paul Dawg · Apr 23, 2009, 05:02 PM // 17:02

I see what you're saying, but I'll have to go back and see how heroes actually use [zealous renewal]. (It's been a while since I've used a bar like that.) My recollection is that they keep it up mindlessly, meaning that plenty of times they're casting it when there's nobody around--so the energy investment comes when they don't need the energy and they're getting it back quickly anyway through natural regeneration.

At any rate, yeah, I'm starting to be convinced that there have to be better options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cebe

Why would the hero need energy at the end of the fight? It's 10-energy worth of investment in an enchantment for no good reason. Even if you consider it to be a good skill, surely there must be other skills which you would see as superior to it? With enchantments flying around from Monks and the like a hero Dervish is usually OK for energy. Moreover, if energy is a concern, consider other skills such as [[Zealous Sweep] - high damage skill with energy return, but returns the energy instantly, and not when you probably least need it.

distilledwill · Apr 26, 2009, 10:10 AM // 10:10

[build prof=D/Rt wind=6 Scythe=12+1+1 myst=11+1][Wounding Strike][Chilling Victory][Lyssa's Assault][Test of Faith][Attacker's Insight][Heart of Fury][Faithful Intervention][Death Pact Signet][/build]

On the off chance that I use melonni (and shes not on the D/N orders build) she uses this. ToF is something I'm trying out, just seems quite powerful - aoe enchant removal with damage... I dunno.

Paul Dawg · Apr 26, 2009, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Fiddled around with a few other skills--and is it really the case that heroes never apply [mystic vigor]? My hero didn't cast it on himself a single time. I would have thought it was just the kind of skill that heroes use effectively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

At any rate, yeah, I'm starting to be convinced that there have to be better options.

Super Igor · Apr 27, 2009, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

[build prof=D/Rt wind=6 Scythe=12+1+1 myst=11+1][Wounding Strike][Chilling Victory][Lyssa's Assault][Test of Faith][Attacker's Insight][Heart of Fury][Faithful Intervention][Death Pact Signet][/build]

On the off chance that I use melonni (and shes not on the D/N orders build) she uses this. ToF is something I'm trying out, just seems quite powerful - aoe enchant removal with damage... I dunno.

its damage is soo low, 35 cold on HM is nothing...and ench removal is conditional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Fiddled around with a few other skills--and is it really the case that heroes never apply [mystic vigor]? My hero didn't cast it on himself a single time. I would have thought it was just the kind of skill that heroes use effectively.

I think they will only use it when having a certain ammount of enchantments on them...at least thats the impression I got when using EDA Derv in HB back in the day.

Posts Merged by Cebe: Please use the button rather than double posting.

distilledwill · May 03, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

its damage is soo low, 35 cold on HM is nothing...and ench removal is conditional.

I think they will only use it when having a certain ammount of enchantments on them...at least thats the impression I got when using EDA Derv in HB back in the day.

Posts Merged by Cebe: Please use the button rather than double posting.

I actually say that I only really use melonni in the early stages anyway - so its not in HM. Also, I'm not using it for the damage but for the AoE enchantment removal.