Curse

Daesu · Jun 04, 2009, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

I was just thinking that after all this debate, I would be really interested in seeing how you guys play. This came to mind because tonight I decided to try doing Vloxen Excavations HM, which I had been dreading doing because of its reputation, and it turned out to be quite easy (due to some good advice from others in the thread about it). So I made a post with some additional info and a video clip.

Good idea. I would be interested to see how well the dual orders racway performs in a H/H setting too against said dungeon in HM.

Nice builds, but do you really need the cons? urgh

From the video, seems like only you and Zho are physicals and the rest are casters. Triple necro, 2 monk henchies, Herta (earth hench), and Zho. Would you be able to do it without Lina and bring a damage hench instead? You already have a N/Rt healer so basically you have 2 healers, and 1 protector.

Gigashadow · Jun 04, 2009, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Good idea. I would be interested to see how well the dual orders racway performs in a H/H setting too against said dungeon in HM.

Nice builds, but do you really need the cons? urgh

Haha, no, it turned out to be totally unnecessary. I preemptively used them after one wipe on floor 2 when I decided to run straight into the big boss group at the top of the stairs (got overconfident, it was so easy until then), figuring from that point on the dungeon would be brutal, so might as well use them at that point. But yeah that was really me getting spooked by this dungeon's reputation, and it wasn't at all needed, so I didn't use anything on the other floors.

I do think that knowing what I know now, after having one it once, I could replace Lina with another damage dealer in that setup.

But yeah I would love to see other playstyles in action in some of the harder locations in the game.

AtomicMew · Jun 04, 2009, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Everything a MM does effectively can be easily fit on your bitch of choice. And gain a few slots and attribute points by not wasting it on Death.

And once again, if you are running physicals and taking it slow - then you are doing it wrong. The only time I take it slow is when I've been massively overloaded with hexes and conditions and I need to take time to clean everything up.

You contradict yourself in only a few sentences. A MM will absorb so many hexes/conditions that would otherwise bone over your team and slow it down to a crawl. No hex/condition removal is even close to capable of the mitigating power that a MM has.

Even still, a MM will ALWAYS out-DPS a single physical, so your argument that you don't take it slow with no MM is pretty backwards, considering the above and also that you're missing out on one of the biggest DPS sources in the game.

Kiluna · Jun 04, 2009, 07:20 PM // 19:20

I don't know about other people, but racway have served me well. Only NF mission were it didn't work was Jennur's Horde - and that was only because the "only" tactic for it that i master well, is the rush to stairs -> kill the harbringer there, etc. etc. -> flag your heroes on the first bridge while you run lights to kill bonus harbringers and boss. No line of sight for paras, so used MM + 2 ele heroes instead.

And about hexes... When you know you're going heavy hex area, there ARE builds for those areas, in both, pvx and these forums (it's even sticky). 2x Epathic Removal and Hexbreaker Aria = no hex problems for your team.
Or in case you aren't sure, you can run the command para with the hexbuild, this will give you condition removal on skill use (from motigon) and empathic removal from comman para.

Anyway, the main hencies i use are NM: para, warrior, ele, monk HM: para, ele, monk, monk.
2 monk henchies in HM because to me the D/N doesn't count as healer. But rather as melee/adre booster with backup heals (mystic healing and vow of piety are too random to count on in thigh situations)

edit: that is on my imbagon.
Also i use mystic regen on D/N instead of dwayna's touch, which makes it require next to no healing from the healers...

The Riven · Jun 04, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Even still, a MM will ALWAYS out-DPS a single physical, so your argument that you don't take it slow with no MM is pretty backwards, considering the above and also that you're missing out on one of the biggest DPS sources in the game.

This is just false, a single physical buffed by orders/mop/barbs/EBSoH/shouts will when attacking a called target will massively smash ANY MM in pure DPS.

AtomicMew · Jun 04, 2009, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

This is just false, a single physical buffed by orders/mop/barbs/EBSoH/shouts will when attacking a called target will massively smash ANY MM in pure DPS.

You realize... mop, barbs, EbSoH and some shouts affects minions as well? MMs have a combined hit rate at 3 to 4 times a para. Buffs only further serve to prove the superior DPS of a MM. Not only that, but bone minions explode, doing massive AoE. Factor in a death elite (discord, OoU) and there is just no contest. Physical heroes cant compare, just no matter what build.

MM's have always been the powerhouse of fast-paced PvE for the majority of areas. This has been since the beginning of Guild Wars and is still true today.

It really just shows massive inexperience to think otherwise.

Xenomortis · Jun 04, 2009, 09:03 PM // 21:03

MM with 10 fiends. Let's say he has OoU.
I honestly don't know a reasonable estimate for a fiends attack damage. Just been to the Isle of the Nameless, and they appear to do 15-45 damage (including crits) with an average between the 20-30 mark against AL60.
AL100 however, it's around 10-15 on average.

Let's go with the 100 armour enemy, that seems fairly average in HM.
With OoU, 15 damage will be boosted to 32, assuming constant coverage. (16 in DM obviously).
Under EbSoH (and this only works reliably with fiends, and even then...), that could be boosted to 40-47. Let's call it 45 (7 in Ebon rank).
That means, fiends will be doing around 45 damage a hit. Each fiend attacks 30 times in 58 seconds, if the wiki is to be believed. This is 1.933... seconds per attack.

45 / 1.933... = 23.27586207... DPS according to my calculator.
For 10 minions: ~233 DPS

Now, for a single buffed physical - I'm going to pick the assassin (best choice, as they have the chance for double strikes and are easily buffed).

Under a 33% IAS, an assassin will attack every 0.89 seconds - excluding double strikes.
Buffs are from: OoP/OotV @16, SoH (@10 or 12, mabye even 16), EBSoH and GDW.
OoP/OotV = 17 per hit
SoH = 18, 21 or 28 respectively (depends who's doing the buffing)
EBSoH = 13 (at rank 7)
GDW = 18 (at rank 7)

This sums up to 66 per hit. This comes to ~74 DPS.
The following is depending on their build and attack chain:

Let's say, Golden Fox -> Wild Strike -> DB -> MS -> DB -> MS (Death).
This has 2 Double Strike attacks and gives a total skill damage of 315 in 5.34 seconds.
This, on average, will deal 59 DPS. This may be higher depending on the attack chain used.
Assuming this attack cycle and the above buffs, we get a total damage 315 + 6x66 + 2x66 = 843 in 5.34 seconds = ~158 DPS.
I should note, at 16 Smiting for SoH, this comes to 923 in 5.43 seconds = ~170 DPS.

This is lower than the DPS from 10 minions (158 compared to 233).
If you disagree, pick apart my calculation and ammend my assumptions. I myself, am not concluded.

However, some notes:
A human physical (if they have any degree of competence) will attack a called target - a target the caller has decided that needs to die.
A MM has only small influence over what the minions attack. The minions may not decide to attack a target that needs killing right now. They may decide to attack a warrior rushing for your casters and totally ignore the enemy monks, or necros that exploit corpses.

If the excrement collides with the unsophisticated air conditioning system however, a physical setup is still more durable in my view. A human can be ressed much quicker than a MM army can be raised.
Besides, it's not as though the two are not incompatible.

On reflection... was it really worth my writing this up?

Carinae · Jun 04, 2009, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Assuming this attack cycle and the above buffs, we get a total damage 315 + 6x66 + 2x66 = 843 in 5.34 seconds = ~158 DPS.

This is lower than the DPS from 10 minions (158 compared to 233).

Not 10 minions, 10 FIENDS. An entirely unrealistic expectation for a hero MM. But the figure is a reasonable upper bound for human MM DPS. Now....average that DPS across the enemy mob.

For the sin you didn't figure in Asura Scan or BUH. (one or the other)

So, 233 DPS unfocused (human max-buffed MM) or .... 158 DPS (plus Asura Scan) thats focused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Not only that, but bone minions explode, doing massive AoE.

Yes, yes, the fearsome Death Nova...

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Factor in a death elite (discord, OoU) and there is just no contest.

Don't you ever mention those skills in the same sentence again. OoU is so far beyond Discrap that it's insulting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Physical heroes cant compare, just no matter what build.

Yet more intellectual dishonesty. This time it's in the flavor of "bait-and-switch". You make grandiose claims about MM damage, clearly involving a human MM (10 fiends, OoU, EbSoH) and then reverse course and compare that to a melee HERO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

MM's have always been the powerhouse of fast-paced PvE for the majority of areas. This has been since the beginning of Guild Wars and is still true today.

This has to be the funniest quote of the day, maybe all week. I'm gonna quote this and pass it around, you crack me up.

A human MM: powerhouse? ok. fast-paced? HAHAHA no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

It really just shows massive inexperience to think otherwise.

Find a mirror.

Daesu · Jun 04, 2009, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Not 10 minions, 10 FIENDS. An entirely unrealistic expectation for a hero MM. But the figure is a reasonable upper bound for human MM DPS. Now....average that DPS across the enemy mob.

For the sin you didn't figure in Asura Scan or BUH. (one or the other)

So, 233 DPS unfocused (human max-buffed MM) or .... 158 DPS (plus Asura Scan) thats focused.

It is not that difficult to focus fiends, unless you have lots of melee monsters coming in to distract them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiki

Although minions will attack foes in their Danger Zone, they will not attack ones outside this range unless their master attacks a target. Spells will not count as attacks in this regard.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Minion

Someone did an old test on MoP damage with fiends:

http://home1.gte.net/~res0iq2d/GW/MoPDmg.jpg

Note that this damage test does not include:

1) OoU
2) Any PvE skills that would boost their damage like Ebon Vanguard ward of Honor or Asura Scan or Ural
3) Necro spearing
4) It has a mixed of melee minions rather than just fiends so it is more realistic.

Xenomortis · Jun 04, 2009, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Not 10 minions, 10 FIENDS. An entirely unrealistic expectation for a hero MM. But the figure is a reasonable upper bound for human MM DPS. Now....average that DPS across the enemy mob.

For the sin you didn't figure in Asura Scan or BUH. (one or the other).

10 Fiends is doable... just. I believe it to be undesirable though.
No, I didn't include Asura Scan or Ural's, though the recharge on Ural's makes it less... useful? applicable? I dunno.
I also didn't include the area of effect damage from Death Blossom.

However, the problem that you just pointed out (and has been pointed out before) is the fact that MM DPS is spread out and unfocused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

It is not that difficult to focus fiends, unless you have lots of melee monsters coming in to distract them.

Which you usually do. It doesn't take much to distract them and a couple melee attackers will often do it. Especially when their first target is down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Someone did an old test on MoP damage with fiends:

http://home1.gte.net/~res0iq2d/GW/MoPDmg.jpg

Note that this damage test does not include:

1) OoU
2) Ebon Vanguard ward of Honor
3) Necro spearing

The damage done there sort of agrees with my calculations. The Master of damage has 60 armour as opposed to my 100AL used to guess the minion damage. OoU is comparable to Barbs (Barbs does one less damage a hit, but will suffer no downtime in that test).

Daesu · Jun 04, 2009, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Which you usually do. It doesn't take much to distract them and a couple melee attackers will often do it. Especially when their first target is down.

You can check it out if that is so in real combat situation by looking at the MoP numbers. Fiends seem to work quite well for targeting from some of these old screenshots:

http://home1.gte.net/~res0iq2d/GW/MoP.jpg
http://home1.gte.net/~res0iq2d/GW/MoP2.jpg

Quote:

The damage done there sort of agrees with my calculations. The Master of damage has 60 armour as opposed to my 100AL used to guess the minion damage. OoU is comparable to Barbs (Barbs does one less damage a hit, but will suffer no downtime in that test).

With the PvE skills added on, I wont be surprised if the DPS is alittle higher than what was shown on that Master of Damage screenshot.

By the way, I find that fiends work better with MoP than physical characters because of this reason:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeno

What? Even if you prime a target with MoP and cast AP on it later, that target is going to die pretty quickly - long before you get much milage out of MoP.

I dont use discord with MoP generally but I also dont like to use physical players with MoP because their damage is too high.

Fiends damage however, is low enough (without barbs), to get good MoP mileage from them.

Carinae · Jun 05, 2009, 12:08 AM // 00:08

FYI:

14 Dagger
13 CS

Orders @ 13 Blood
Strength of Honor @ 10 Smiting
GDW @ Max
EBSoH @ Max
Asura Scan @ Max

I could have done a bit better, I accidentally cast Crit Agility in mid battle, and could have done better on AS.

That's ME ALONE, focused DPS.

Oh, and traversc, yea, there was a nice long line of hits in the 150-250 damage range. Practically every hit was 100+ HP.

AtomicMew · Jun 05, 2009, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Yet more intellectual dishonesty. This time it's in the flavor of "bait-and-switch". You make grandiose claims about MM damage, clearly involving a human MM (10 fiends, OoU, EbSoH) and then reverse course and compare that to a melee HERO.

I never mentioned EbSoH ANYWHERE on these forums for at least 5 months. l2r and stop your outright lying. Come on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

FYI:

14 Dagger
13 CS

Orders @ 13 Blood
Strength of Honor @ 10 Smiting
GDW @ Max
EBSoH @ Max
Asura Scan @ Max

I could have done a bit better, I accidentally cast Crit Agility in mid battle, and could have done better on AS.

That's ME ALONE, focused DPS.

Oh, and traversc, yea, there was a nice long line of hits in the 150-250 damage range. Practically every hit was 100+ HP.

Wow, that proves exactly nothing.

Comparing a HERO minion mancer to a HUMAN sin + 3-4 other buffers, one of which needs to be HUMAN as well....

Wow. Just wow carinae. I seriously did not think your reasoning could get any worse.

Edit:
@Xeno:
your tests are entirely valid. They prove that a physical needs a ridiculous amount of buffs to even compare with a MM.

Carinae · Jun 05, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

That's Human to human.

Mr Emu · Jun 05, 2009, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

FYI:
Orders @ 13 Blood
Strength of Honor @ 10 Smiting
GDW @ Max
EBSoH @ Max
Asura Scan @ Max

That's ME ALONE, focused DPS.

sometimes people like you make me want to completely sever contact with humanity

Daesu · Jun 05, 2009, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

FYI:

14 Dagger
13 CS

Orders @ 13 Blood
Strength of Honor @ 10 Smiting
GDW @ Max
EBSoH @ Max
Asura Scan @ Max

I could have done a bit better, I accidentally cast Crit Agility in mid battle, and could have done better on AS.

That's ME ALONE, focused DPS.

Oh, and traversc, yea, there was a nice long line of hits in the 150-250 damage range. Practically every hit was 100+ HP.

An assassin with 14 Dagger, 13 CS, 13 to Blood, and 10 to smiting? Are you a primary sin or a primary necro?

How do you even cast GDW on yourself?

And you were ALONE? I think not.

Carinae · Jun 05, 2009, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Oh, no, it was:

Me on Sin with max Asura
My Smiting-Orders hero on passive
Guildmate with max Vanguard and max Deldrimor. I could have run EBSoH on the Sin without problems, but it was easier to let him manage it.

I was the only one dealing damage. The Master of Damage result was all me.

It's a perfectly valid application of skills, pretty common phys buffer set.

Daesu · Jun 05, 2009, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Oh, no, it was:

Me on Sin with max Asura
My Smiting-Orders hero on passive
Guildmate with max Vanguard and max Deldrimor. I could have run EBSoH on the Sin without problems, but it was easier to let him manage it.

I was the only one dealing damage. The Master of Damage result was all me.

It's a perfectly valid application of skills, pretty common phys buffer set.

The point is, you were NOT ALONE. Your friend did help you out by buffing you up. Also you should really try that exact build configuration in actual combat.

The goal isn't to get the maxium number possible from the Master of damage. The goal was to find out how much DPS a TYPICAL form of the build can generate, otherwise we would be using Volfen Bloodlust with MoP and fiends just to win in the numbers game. That is not going to prove anything if the build is not practical in actual combat.

Carinae · Jun 05, 2009, 07:13 AM // 07:13

I run that in actual combat. If I was trying to get max DPS out of it, I would have run 16 Blood and 16 Smiting.

The 'not alone' issue is ridiculous. The score is from me alone, you could have perfectly well interpreted that comment in that manner, and you still can. You chose to interpret it in the strictest sense possible, and you chose that interpretation because it favors your point.

Daesu · Jun 05, 2009, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

I run that in actual combat. If I was trying to get max DPS out of it, I would have run 16 Blood and 16 Smiting.

The 'not alone' issue is ridiculous. The score is from me alone, you could have perfectly well interpreted that comment in that manner, and you still can. You chose to interpret it in the strictest sense possible, and you chose that interpretation because it favors your point.

Do you really think having a second human player buffing you with another PvE skill would make this a fair comparison? Besides, you can never be buffed with GDW in a H/H situation which is the standard baseline for comparing 3-heroes builds. You cant compare a H/H team that can only bring 3 PvE skills with a 3-heroes + 5 human team that can bring more than that and call that fair.

Furthermore, to get a higher damage number, I can always switch all my healing and protection skills for more damage, but that also wouldn't be a fair comparison. The best comparison is to just show your build in action and Giga has already started that by making a video of his trip to Vloxen HM using his 3 necro heroes build + 4 henchies. We are still waiting for someone to demonstrate the effectiveness of racway in said dungeon.