Curse

IronSheik · Jul 03, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Lol, a moebius/DB can fuel Discord better than a caller, with Scan you're hitting at the LEAST 80 per HIT with DB on warriors. And if you bring SoH and Judge's Insight, it'll be 150+, so one deathblossom=3 discords?

Golden fang+Asuran Scan are completely spammable.

Sorry to say but, Mark of Pain adds more DPS with a sin than discord ever will.

The closest thing I would ever run to a 'sit there' caller sin is a crit spear sin with AP

Super Igor · Jul 03, 2009, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Learn to play Discord.

AtomicMew · Jul 03, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Lol, a moebius/DB can fuel Discord better than a caller, with Scan you're hitting at the LEAST 80 per HIT with DB on warriors. And if you bring SoH and Judge's Insight, it'll be 150+, so one deathblossom=3 discords?

As Igor said, learn to play discord.

But let me add, learn the difference between a hero and player. Because anyone actually argued that discord hero can outdamage player MS/DB, amirite?

Quote:

Originally Posted by improvel

Sincerely I don't understand the infatuation people have with AP callers to fuel discord necro trios.

+...

Discord is great spike damage. It is crappy sustained damage. Using sustained damage + Spike damage gives you the best of both worlds without any drawback.

You said it yourself. Discordway is great spike, but bad sustained damage if nothing dies. People use AP caller because it goes with the theme. It's great spike, but bad sustained damage if nothing dies.

MS/DB of course, does work. You might even be able to a few areas that discordway would have trouble with because MS/DB allows you to do more sustained damage. MS/DB sin with discordway does work, but don't be fooled into thinking it's faster than an AP caller. The very fact that MS/DB is melee, and the fact that it takes ~1-2 seconds to even get into melee range, means it is slower.

There is no comparison. An AP caller can do ~250 damage in 1.5 seconds with norn shouts. EVAS does ~200 damage costing you 1.75 seconds and knocklocks.

On the other hand, assuming completely ideal conditions (i.e., everything shadow steps to you in melee range), MS/DB takes 1.75 seconds to do ~100 damage (asura scan + first hit)... and doesn't even prime for discord (condition req).

Tenebrae · Jul 03, 2009, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Learn to play Discord.

Learn to plan SOMETHING else than Discord. You know ? ppl will get tired of you posting on 5 or 6 threads of "Campfire" always saying "Discord is the answer to everything" and when someone says the opposite : "learn to play discord" . Even a LF sin or a Critscythe will outdamage with MoP your beloved build. Holy christ you are blinded with that gimmick build that requires no-skill at all hahaha.

IronSheik · Jul 03, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51

I'm done with this thread, it's like arguing with my 5 year old nephew, you're never right.

Discord isn't god.

Super Igor · Jul 03, 2009, 07:06 PM // 19:06

[QUOTE=Improvavel;4723708]So basically what u guys are saying is that a generic AP+PvE skills caller does more damage than a Moebius/Dblossom sin? Or than a GodSword Warrior?[QUOTE]

In those ~ two seconds of the spike, yes, max rank AP Caller has higher burst damage. You also forgetting that with AP caller you Discord spikes are faster and cleaner thats all that matters.

Also, FYI Godmode doesnt do allot of damage at all, even with Asuran Scan you be dealing ~60 damage to single target. Main reason to run DS/SY! is uber SY! spammage.
If you want an uber damage war build go WE Scythe.

Quote:

Discord is great for heroes as it allows them to bring great utility and still do decent spike damage.

You got it really, really wrong.

Discord is great because it can take down a mob with pretty much one skill leaving 7 others pretty much free to use for anything, they are usually filled in with utility, defense and minions.

Quote:

But their sustained DPS is kinda low.

You dont need sustained DPS with Discord. One spike is enough to kill anything, at worst your heroes would have to cast Discord again but thats rare.

But while we are at it, Discord has allot of sustained DPS actually. I always have 15-18 minions running around, ebon sins and last but not least Discord spam, thats 100+ damage each cast x3. Not low at all.

Quote:

And if it is true that the targets are dying so fast you dont need save yourselves why the hell do you have 2 discord healers?

So I dont have to take SY! and take all three pve skills, ymlad, evas, fh.
One is primary healer, the other backs him up. Red bars go up quick, more time to Discord.
Another reason is that there is simply nothing better to fit in the slots. :P

Quote:

In my experience, Sabway where the elites have been replaced by discord and attributes adjusted work much better than either originals Sabs or wiki discordway with an AP caller - they have the strong defense of both + the damage of both and your character is doing its role - in case of Moebius sin and Dragon Slash warrior that means a ton of sustained DPS.

I think you never ran Discord with a caller, that what makes you say this.
That setup sucks, because it wont do either job properly.
Like me and undreal have told you, instead of spamming Discord they spam hexes, hexes that are weaker than Sabway's, so whats the point?

Quote:

Because barbs+mark of pain is more damage than discord? Especially when coupled with minions?

Quote:

Discord is great spike damage. It is crappy sustained damage. Using sustained damage + Spike damage gives you the best of both worlds without any drawback.

Discord has enough sustained damage, now stop killing the spike part please.

Quote:

So the primary question here is:

Will the heroes use discord without an ap caller and one of the discord restoration dudes turned into a discord curses dude just as good?

Yes, they do.

No they dont.

Stop making false, misleading statements. Me and unreal have provided enough evidence and we are better than you.

You just never ran Discord like it should be.

Quote:

Since they do, does AP caller offers more utility/damage than Moebius sin?

I think the answer is a clear no.

I think the answer is that you should uninstall.

AP Caller has snare, kd, hex + 4 free slots you can fill in with any utility you want, you have 9 profs to choose from. Your Discord heroes love it too.

MS/DB only has a hex, maybe a condition, maybe a kd but then no hex and SY! you dont need with proper setup. it also does crap porforming with Discord.

So REAL uqestion is: Have you been saying a complete piece of bullshit and Discord should be used with AP Caller for best performance?

Yes.

Super Igor · Jul 03, 2009, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Learn to plan SOMETHING else than Discord. You know ? ppl will get tired of you posting on 5 or 6 threads of "Campfire" always saying "Discord is the answer to everything" and when someone says the opposite : "learn to play discord" . Even a LF sin or a Critscythe will outdamage with MoP your beloved build. Holy christ you are blinded with that gimmick build that requires no-skill at all hahaha.

Why?

Everything else is slow, and dont tell me it's not.

Discordway is considered the best hero setup in gw for a reason.

Also, you are wrong, your Discordway must be terrible if it gets outdone by random inferior builds. I mean seriously, rage more, it amuses me.

Also, skill in pve? You must be kidding me.

Improvavel · Jul 03, 2009, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Discord is great because it can take down a mob with pretty much one skill leaving 7 others pretty much free to use for anything, they are usually filled in with utility, defense and minions.

But aren't you just spamming discord?

First you tell me that a Moebius Assassin is bad because it doesn't spike as clean.

Then you tell me that actually the discord necros use the other skills.

My version of game might be corrupted, 5000+ hours of it after all, but in my version of game heroes can either cast discord or the other skills, cant cast both at the same time.

If in your version of the game the same happens, that means that AP caller sin is there doing shit, because he cant kill alone. No kill no AP proc. No AP proc no EVAS or FH and YMLaD.

Now, if you use a MS/DB paired with a MM discord, Restoration Discord and a CURSES, you know enfeebling blood and hexes to fulfill the Discord requisite and this guy can cast them as he isn't healing, that damn MS/DB will dishing actually sustained damage. BIG DAMAGE. And AoE at that. Deep Wound on top of that (in most areas). Isn't deep wound a condition? With knocks! And SY!

Discord is good, but it isn't the end of all things. That is why you need those other skill, as you pointed, to support your party.

Any reference to "why are they casting hexes instead of discord?" is a pure fallacy because it can be counterd with "why are they casting heals instead of a discord?".

More interesting is that the pvx wiki includes 2 restoration necros. But any reference to use SY! and replace those heals on the second restoration for barbs is replied with "but why would you need SY!". Of course a player with SY! will say "why the hell do you need 2 restorations and you even run that damn monk hench? My heroes are using spears between casts of discord to trigger barbs and MoP!".

All this is loads of intellectual dishonesty.

Discord heroes use more than discord - so what differs is the skills an AP caller heroes needs and the skills a MS/DB needs his heroes to run.

The main difference is that MS/DB takes a bit more of initial setup, but once it is set it keeps on going faster and faster. The caller versions setup a litlle faster, but once it starts casting those "7 support, defense, minions skills" the damage diminishes.

People can try both, and they will see that a MS/DB build will be at least as good/fast and more fun (if you prefer attacking with your weapon instead of casting spells).

Tenebrae · Jul 03, 2009, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Dont bother Improvavel , he is blinded by faith to a Discordway god. Anything we say is BS and theres nothing in the world that could EVER get near that build in ANY zone at GW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Why?
Everything else is slow, and dont tell me it's not.

Yes oh god discordway punish me for having doubts !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Discordway is considered the best hero setup in gw for a reason.

I bet those reasons are not the ones you think but punish me i deserve it for heresy !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Also, you are wrong, your Discordway must be terrible if it gets outdone by random inferior builds. I mean seriously, rage more, it amuses me.

Yes, all other builds are random and inferior , done by brainless ppl that didnt know what they were doing and they ALL should be punished !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Also, skill in pve? You must be kidding me.

Skill in Discordway is the only skill at the game , discordway setup and use is the one and only process that requires skill at the entire game !

Well , you got what you wanted you can rest now.

Super Igor · Jul 03, 2009, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

But aren't you just spamming discord?

First you tell me that a Moebius Assassin is bad because it doesn't spike as clean.

Then you tell me that actually the discord necros use the other skills.

My version of game might be corrupted, 5000+ hours of it after all, but in my version of game heroes can either cast discord or the other skills, cant cast both at the same time.

Thats the whole point I dislike to split the focus of my Discordway because you cant make them cast several offensive spells at the same time so if you take Discord with melee hexes they would need to either cast the hexes, or cast Discord.
Think of it.

Quote:

If in your version of the game the same happens, that means that AP caller sin is there doing shit, because he cant kill alone. No kill no AP proc. No AP proc no EVAS or FH and YMLaD.

Point is it doesn't, most important offensive spell of my heroes is Discord, they dont have to cast any extra melee buffs or anything before that because the primer is on so AP always triggers.
IF, it happens that they for any reason would be reluctant to cast Discord (AI is AI, no matter how awesome) I have Discord bound to my num pad, giving heroes an order interrupts any other action they do.

Quote:

Now, if you use a MS/DB paired with a MM discord, Restoration Discord and a CURSES, you know enfeebling blood and hexes to fulfill the Discord requisite and this guy can cast them as he isn't healing, that damn MS/DB will dishing actually sustained damage. BIG DAMAGE. And AoE at that. Deep Wound on top of that (in most areas). Isn't deep wound a condition? With knocks! And SY!

Uhhh, so much time wasted making you hero prime discord when it could have been actually Discording.

By your story you already managed to cast CA, run to your target, do some huge sustained damage and your heroes are still priming, oh cmon it sounds slow.
In fact your story sounds similar to what was happening to me when i run Discord without AP caller long time ago.

Quote:

Any reference to "why are they casting hexes instead of discord?" is a pure fallacy because it can be counterd with "why are they casting heals instead of a discord?".

No, because the thing is that they dont have to cast heals instead of Discord.

Also, your excuse for "hexes issue" is a fallacy too then, because it can be countered by what you said above, that you can cast several things at the same time.

Quote:

More interesting is that the pvx wiki includes 2 restoration necros. But any reference to use SY! and replace those heals on the second restoration for barbs is replied with "but why would you need SY!". Of course a player with SY! will say "why the hell do you need 2 restorations and you even run that damn monk hench? My heroes are using spears between casts of discord to trigger barbs and MoP!".

But really, why would you need to waste a pve skill slot for SY! when you dont need it?
If youre being hit by something nasty it will be right at the start before you can charge SY! like sF, SH and other elemntal aoe's or would be armor ignoring like melee, life steal or holy damage like RoJ.
Having two PWK is best counter to this, really, hence why I run another support resto.
If your party simply cannot surive anything without the 100AL than youre doing it wrong.

Quote:

Discord heroes use more than discord - so what differs is the skills an AP caller heroes needs and the skills a MS/DB needs his heroes to run.

Discord is all you need...AP caller doesnt ask anything from it's heroes, it only gives, makes them stronger.
MS/DB on other hand requres your heroes to switch to all sorts of things, destroy their attribute spreads and all sorts of nasty things.

Quote:

The main difference is that MS/DB takes a bit more of initial setup, but once it is set it keeps on going faster and faster. The caller versions setup a litlle faster, but once it starts casting those "7 support, defense, minions skills" the damage diminishes.

Oh glad you finally understood its faster, yeah it is faster!

Also, same can be said to you, once your heroes start spamming melee buffs and hexes, minions and heals your damage deminishes, but it will diminish more because more things will unfocus your heroes.

Quote:

People can try both, and they will see that a MS/DB build will be at least as good/fast and more fun (if you prefer attacking with your weapon instead of casting spells).

Honestly, I ran mainly MS/DB ever since it appeared thats almost 3 years if not more , reasons why should be obvious.
AP caller and Discord setup in general was something new and exciting for me, you just must admit that it took our perspective of PvE out of the box.

AtomicMew · Jul 03, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

The closest thing I would ever run to a 'sit there' caller sin is a crit spear sin with AP

Fail... Unlike other AP callers, a sin has a FREE secondary, and the best you can come up with is AP crit spear!??!?!?!??!

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

I'm done with this thread, it's like arguing with my 5 year old nephew, you're never right.

Fail... You say MSDB does more damage than an AP caller. Disproved with math and logic. The only one being a 5 year old in this thread is you. If you are done with this thread, then WHY ARE YOU POSTING ABOUT IT? No one cares about you that much. Seriously. At least others who agree with you are trying to make an actual argument.

Improvavel · Jul 04, 2009, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Discord is all you need...AP caller doesnt ask anything from it's heroes, it only gives, makes them stronger.
MS/DB on other hand requres your heroes to switch to all sorts of things, destroy their attribute spreads and all sorts of nasty things.

Yeah it requires one guy to be a curses dude instead of of restoration.
You are theoricrafting.

Quote:

Oh glad you finally understood its faster, yeah it is faster!

Lets see - Ap caller goes cast YMLaD. Then it might cast the AP, if there are no hex removal around. If there is you need to cast another hex to prime or cover it. AP calling in Kaineng is rather fun.

Now lets see the Moebius/sin - he goes there attack a dude, soon deep wound and loads of damage and the curses hero goes and cast enfeebling blood, reckless haste, etc. Now look, a few of the enemies have conditions hexes. First target is down, and the others are damaged and conditioned/hexed. So its just kill kill kill.

Quote:

Also, same can be said to you, once your heroes start spamming melee buffs and hexes, minions and heals your damage deminishes, but it will diminish more because more things will unfocus your heroes.

1 Hero cast hexes and conditions - which by the way reduce damage taken by the party, while the resto healer of the pvx discordway needs to heal them or stop to cast a minion.

Only one of the heroes is different (and curiously in that pvx discordway the support resto also has curses!!!! - talk about nasty attribute spreading).

Quote:

Honestly, I ran mainly MS/DB ever since it appeared thats almost 3 years if not more , reasons why should be obvious.
AP caller and Discord setup in general was something new and exciting for me, you just must admit that it took our perspective of PvE out of the box.

I'm in now way saying that discord is bad for heroes. I'm saying running an AP caller when you could run a frigging DPS machine is stupid though.

You seem to be set on that pvx discordway - so you can't phantom any changes on the build and don't seem to have a grasp how the differences in a single build that is dropping a few resto skills for curses will affect the game play of it.

The difference from having an AP caller to having a curses hero, is that in one the AP caller is the one casting the primers while in the other is the hero.

And what is the problem if the curses is casting hexes and conditions instead of discord? All his skills either reduce damage taken or improve damage dealt and work as primers for the discord too.

From the point of view of the heroes it is exactly the same.

AtomicMew · Jul 04, 2009, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by improvel

More interesting is that the pvx wiki includes 2 restoration necros. But any reference to use SY! and replace those heals on the second restoration for barbs is replied with "but why would you need SY!". Of course a player with SY! will say "why the hell do you need 2 restorations and you even run that damn monk hench? My heroes are using spears between casts of discord to trigger barbs and MoP!".

All this is loads of intellectual dishonesty.

You are the one being dishonest. MS/DB doesn't keep up SY! nearly as much as you like to theorycraft it does. As an easily shutdowned squishy front-liner, a lot of hate is going to be directed at YOU rather than your heroes anyway.

Even still, an AP caller can do it better AND at range if you really, really want. AP + FGJ! + SY! spear auto-attack. But the fact is, it's just not needed and it doesn't help help as much as you think it does. You (should) have a huge minion wall, and anything that gets through is easily fixed with double resto.

Improvavel · Jul 04, 2009, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You are the one being dishonest. MS/DB doesn't keep up SY! nearly as much as you like to theorycraft it does. As an easily shutdowned squishy front-liner, a lot of hate is going to be directed at YOU rather than your heroes anyway.

Even still, an AP caller can do it better AND at range if you really, really want. AP + FGJ! + SY! spear auto-attack. But the fact is, it's just not needed and it doesn't help help as much as you think it does. You (should) have a huge minion wall, and anything that gets through is easily fixed with double resto.

More intellectual dishonesty.

The prime function of the MS/DB is to do damage. And they do so. SY! is a bonus vs AoE stuff.

So that Spear dude can't replace the MS/DB one.

Anything that goes through the minion wall is easily fixed by SY! and enfeebling blood, and reckless haste or shadow of fear, so no need for 2 restoration rits.

See the pattern here?

What you give by dropping the restoration from the curses necro and the slight adjustments on the others heroes to cover the hexes/conditions directed on the assassin, is given back by the extra curses, extra AoE damage from DS and SY!.

And the assassin is not the worst physical to be a caster. Imagine a warrior running it!

An earth sahker, DS or WE axe/scythe, can easily run discord if they do those changes on their discords.

I know your main character is a necro, and the AP necro is a machine. But an assassin AP caller is far, very far, to compare to it or to even an Ele or Mesmer caller.

AtomicMew · Jul 04, 2009, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Anything that goes through the minion wall is easily fixed by SY! and enfeebling blood, and reckless haste or shadow of fear, so no need for 2 restoration rits.

See the pattern here?

Except that's false. Sporadic SY! + mediocre curse de-buffs does not make up for standard healing and more damage you get from an AP caller.

Quote:

...the AP necro is a machine. But an assassin AP caller is far, very far, to compare to it or to even an Ele or Mesmer caller.

I actually prefer sin AP caller to my necro caller. It means there are so many juicy options I get to try out without having to create a dumb mesmers, ele, rit etc ;o

Unreal Havoc · Jul 04, 2009, 02:25 AM // 02:25

The openess of an Assassins secondary proffession when AP calling make it a very viable option, even over alot of the caster classes.

IronSheik · Jul 04, 2009, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Fail... Unlike other AP callers, a sin has a FREE secondary, and the best you can come up with is AP crit spear!??!?!?!??!

Because it's a moot point to run the Ap caller with a sin when they can output more DPS than discord itself, and with a +20 damage buff from SoH, (Even on a discord hero, mind you) it outputs even more.

Even a Locust's furry sin with SoH can auto attacking with an equivalent to a AP.

Even MoP alone outputs more damage than 3 discords, and with splinter and crit scythe it's going to add huge spike damage, you can't get this as good on a Melee Hench

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Fail... You say MSDB does more damage than an AP caller. Disproved with math and logic.

What math and Logic? you show your numbers for an AP caller, post your numbers for Moebius, granted you can't test this in balth, you have no basis on anything except an AP's numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

The only one being a 5 year old in this thread is you. If you are done with this thread, then WHY ARE YOU POSTING ABOUT IT? No one cares about you that much. Seriously. At least others who agree with you are trying to make an actual argument

I'm 5, you're posting about me posting, shows alot <-

AtomicMew · Jul 04, 2009, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Because it's a moot point to run the Ap caller with a sin when they can output more DPS than discord itself, and with a +20 damage buff from SoH, (Even on a discord hero, mind you) it outputs even more.

Even a Locust's furry sin with SoH can auto attacking with an equivalent to a AP.

Even MoP alone outputs more damage than 3 discords, and with splinter and crit scythe it's going to add huge spike damage, you can't get this as good on a Melee Hench

What math and Logic? you show your numbers for an AP caller, post your numbers for Moebius, granted you can't test this in balth, you have no basis on anything except an AP's numbers.

I've given MS/DB all considerations and benefits of the doubt. Not even taking into consideration the fact that it is melee, MS/DB takes 1.75 seconds to pull of asura scan + 1st hit. That's ~100 damage and a hex. AP caller takes 1.5 seconds to pull of ~150 damage (250 incl. DW) as well as knockdown. When you take into consideration the fact that melee has to run from target to target on the order of ~1 second, there is just no contest.

Besides, if MS/DB is as good as you say it is, your target shouldn't even be lasting long enough to rotate MS/DB. Doesn't that make the entire build, moot?

Quote:

Even MoP alone outputs more damage than 3 discords, and with splinter and crit scythe it's going to add huge spike damage, you can't get this as good on a Melee Hench

Even if I thought taking MoP on a hero was a good idea (it's not, btw), an AP caller can trigger MoP just as much if not MORE than a melee sin with spear + EVAS.

Quote:

I'm 5, you're posting about me posting, shows alot <-

Ur the one who stated I was 5 first. I then stated you were 5 then u retorted ;o. You started it

Unreal Havoc · Jul 04, 2009, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Why do you need to be physical for Mark of Pain to be effective? EVAS loves Mark of Pain. Even more so if you're actually caling targets like you should be.

If you want to run Mark of Pain just micro it as you call your primer hex so it covers your hex and starts triggering as soon as the EVAS strikes.

Now you have your discord spike and AoE damage all in one.

Super Igor · Jul 04, 2009, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Why bother with MoP though?

lol more micro less discord wasted time screwed setup gfg