Curse

LunchboxOctober · Aug 06, 2009, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Okay, that was just a name a guildie used and I just like it, sounds like a hotsauce. I'm sure anyone can see the defensive capabilities of having aoe blindness that is spammable and I've found heroes autofire this build excellently.

Air 12+1+1
Earth 8+1
E.S. 10+1

Radiant / Attunement to fill out the rest, Skybringer or Runar's staff or Hourglass, Kerrsh's. Anything +15 energy.

Shock Arrow
Glyph of Elemental Power
Blinding Surge
Lightning Orb
Enervating Charge
Stoning
Aura of Restoration
Air Attunement

If going into an area where you might want an extra hard res, drop Lightning Orb.

Really fun to watch, hero ai seems to recognize when to use stoning. If you bring "You are all weakinglings" or Enfeebling Blood on another char you can drop enervating charge for a res as well.

Personally this has become a staple in my party for physical heavy areas.

fenix · Aug 06, 2009, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Why do you have 9 in earth and Stoning? Waste of a skill and attributes.

obsidian ectoplasm · Aug 06, 2009, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Why do you have 9 in earth and Stoning? Waste of a skill and attributes.

agreed with mr fenix

Bob Slydell · Aug 06, 2009, 06:43 AM // 06:43

I would remove all trace of earth magic and spread the points to your others, it's currently a waste of attributes. Stoning can still be as effective, but with less damage. It will only be 45. But knockdown on the other hand... is knockdown, and your other spells would benefit greatly from more attributes yielding more dps essentially.

Life Bringing · Aug 06, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Tbh, why are you running a Bsurge? A dead enemy does a lot less damage than a blinded one, and air magic is bad in PvE.

Xenomortis · Aug 06, 2009, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Tbh, why are you running a Bsurge? A dead enemy does a lot less damage than a blinded one, and air magic is bad in PvE.

Killing takes more time and coordination in HM and so it's quicker to cast Blinding Surge on a rushing melee mob, forget about them and focus fire on the more important targets.

Arkantos · Aug 06, 2009, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Bsurge isn't the greatest skill to take if you want anti-melee. Ward against melee is going to end up being more helpful (AoE block vs. single target blind). Not to mention it frees up your elite slot, and can be run on any caster without too much speccing into earth.

Life Bringing · Aug 06, 2009, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Killing takes more time and coordination in HM and so it's quicker to cast Blinding Surge on a rushing melee mob, forget about them and focus fire on the more important targets.

Really? It does? I was not aware of this fact. If you think about it, melee does pitiful damage compared to the damage output of Hm eles. If melee is really giving you that much of a problem, you should think about how to take a useful build and tweak it to counter melee, instead of going drastic and take a build that shuts down melee, but does nothing else. A simple Aegis on your standard hero MM does so much more than this build ever could, because it retains a useful function. Another simple solution in NF/EotN is to simply take Herta as one of your henchmen. Herta has Ward against melee in both, and ward against elements in eotn, making her an effective defense against melee, without having to try very hard.

Xenomortis · Aug 06, 2009, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Really? It does? I was not aware of this fact. If you think about it...

Sorry, what I was really arguing against was the apparant "Killing is always better than debilitating/shutdown" which was what I immediatley picked up from your post.
I wasn't really thinking much of the actual build in the OP - it would be more sensible if I was, so:

AoE blind is great, except that's all this build really does because it's wasted its elite on doing it. Whilst blind is nice, it's only a suped up version of Reckless Haste.
Single target cracked armour and weakness leaves something to be desired and damage clearly isn't the goal of this build.
I'm also confused as to why you bring Glyph of Elemental Power - you don't reach another breakpoint on BSurge with it.

Stoning doesn't need an earth magic spec to be useful - it'll knockdown regardless. A hero is fairly thick though and the 15e cost without an attunement (which you shouldn't bring) might give it problems. I'd take GoLE and hopefully Vekk will be fine.
Stick those attribute points into E Storage and replace the Radiant/Attunement stuff with Survivor/Vitae+Vigor stuff.

Pocketmancer · Aug 06, 2009, 12:30 PM // 12:30

@Life Bringing
Actually, the damage of a melee unit in HM is pretty comparable to a HM ele (if they can hit). Getting hit for 70+ damage twice every second isn't my cup of tea. The only reason why it seems like they're hitting for less is because you're taking the prots that dramatically reduce melee effectiveness by a long shot.

Still, I'd like to fight neither if I could.

speedy21589 · Aug 06, 2009, 01:15 PM // 13:15

I agree with Pocketmancer...I've definitely been hit for 100+ by HM Charr melee in EotN, and 2 or 3 ganging up on a squishy will hurt. Same with Destroyers (which also use anti-block skills). That said, I'm not sure B-surge is the best counter. Personally, I usually just combine Enfeebling Blood with some prots, which seems to do the job.

Covah · Aug 06, 2009, 01:27 PM // 13:27

If i use an ele hero in HM he is usually E/N with UG,churning earth, glowstone, enfeebling blood, eruption, earth attune and aura of resto. It does aoe blind + KDs everything since they all have speedboosts. Weakness also helps alot on melee.

LunchboxOctober · Aug 06, 2009, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Wow, bigger reaction than I thought, would like to thank everyone who took the time to comment on the build, just going to address and elaborate on some points made. Not saying this is the only way to do this because that's completely asinine.
As always, questions and comments are always welcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

A simple Aegis on your standard hero MM does so much more than this build ever could.

1/3 of the time 50% chance to block on party members in earshot vs a maintainable, spammable AoE 90% chance to miss. I don't want to play a meta game here, but thats just the numbers.
In gameplay, Aegis can be stripped and has a long recharge. Aegis chaining is expensive, annoying to do with heros.
If they remove the blindness, it's easily reapplied. Also there are a lot of areas where foes use skills that are unblockable or have effects if blocked.
And you're comparing a minion wall vs. blindness. Minions can't be directed and even if positioned correctly there is no way to guarantee proper targeting, meanwhile blindness can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Tbh, why are you running a Bsurge? A dead enemy does a lot less damage than a blinded one, and air magic is bad in PvE.

Because it's a spammable, easy to maintain AoE blindness that effectively shuts down half of the professions in the game, which must mean it's just terrible.
Sorry, just couldn't resist sarcasm. It helps take pressure of your monks, it saves them energy in spells they don't need to cast - and last but not least - it's an idiotproof hero build. Heroes aren't great at judging which skills to use when, and this build is easy for them to manage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Bsurge isn't the greatest skill to take if you want anti-melee. Ward against melee is going to end up being more helpful (AoE block vs. single target blind). Not to mention it frees up your elite slot, and can be run on any caster without too much speccing into earth.

It's effective vs. Rangers and Paragons as well when the ward is not, and while they don't necessarily do large amounts of damage but it prevents interupts, conditions, slows down adrenaline gain on the paragons. Also wards are stationairy, and if there are casters that have DoT AoE spells it doesn't help to stand in one spot. And hero's are jittery crack heads who, even flagged, eventually start moving around, chasing their own tails.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Single target cracked armour and weakness leaves something to be desired and damage clearly isn't the goal of this build

The build is designed combine well with the 7 (or 5, or 11, early ascalon HM it's not as useful) other party members. Fevered Dreams, Extend Condtions on a Mesmer, Virulence (it's not great I know) but it works well with it. Even just Epidemic, although heroes manage it poorly by spamming. It's more a utility, party support build that is brutally effective at stopping physical damage from most sources.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Stick those attribute points into E Storage and replace the Radiant/Attunement stuff with Survivor/Vitae+Vigor stuff.

I find it works fine the way it is, and putting an excessive amount of attribute points into E.S. just to get 6 more energy out of it seems like more of a waste than putting it into Earth. More health is always a bonus, but at the same time it's an ele hero and it *shouldn't* be out front. Also I find heroes are idiots when using glyphs, and glyph of elemental power seems to be the only one they really don't mess up. 9/10 I have BR in my party so I don't really worry too much about it, the energy management during battle seems to hold it up enough, they use shock arrow fantasticly. In extended battles GoLE would be a better choice, but micro managing it to make sure it's effective can be difficult or problematic depending on your profession choice.

In the end when you rune it's really personal choice, (assuming with the runes on this build) which do you want - +12 e or +100 hp? I just prefer energy over health.

Snow Bunny · Aug 06, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Bsurge isn't the greatest skill to take if you want anti-melee. Ward against melee is going to end up being more helpful (AoE block vs. single target blind). Not to mention it frees up your elite slot, and can be run on any caster without too much speccing into earth.

BSurge is AoE.

I <3 u arky.

AtomicMew · Aug 06, 2009, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

@Life Bringing
Actually, the damage of a melee unit in HM is pretty comparable to a HM ele (if they can hit).

The difference is that melee is easily prot-able, while an ele is not. Things like Aegis and WoW or even WaM, as mentioned, do an excellent job of shutting down melee, if not better than BS and don't even take an elite slot.

Life Bringing · Aug 07, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by LunchboxOctober

Minions can't be directed and even if positioned correctly there is no way to guarantee proper targeting, meanwhile blindness can.

So you're really going to take the time to micro bsurge on every single mob you face? Plus, Bsurge is a single target blind the majority of the time. Melee mobs will not always have an enchant on them, and theres no guarantee they will all be within range of bsurge in the case there is an enchant.

Quote:

Because it's a spammable, easy to maintain AoE blindness that effectively shuts down half of the professions in the game, which must mean it's just terrible.
Sorry, just couldn't resist sarcasm. It helps take pressure of your monks, it saves them energy in spells they don't need to cast - and last but not least - it's an idiotproof hero build. Heroes aren't great at judging which skills to use when, and this build is easy for them to manage.

You know what really takes pressure off you monks and saves them from casting spells? Killing things. When you take a build that can only shut down(and yes, thats what this is, and ti doesn't do it particularly well), battles tend to last much longer than they need to due to a lack of offensive power, leading to more casts.

Quote:

The build is designed combine well with the 7 (or 5, or 11, early ascalon HM it's not as useful) other party members. Fevered Dreams, Extend Condtions on a Mesmer, Virulence (it's not great I know) but it works well with it. Even just Epidemic, although heroes manage it poorly by spamming.

So....you're augmenting a low damage hero bar with...more low damage hero bars? Beats me how you actually kill anything.

Quote:

I find it works fine the way it is, and putting an excessive amount of attribute points into E.S. just to get 6 more energy out of it seems like more of a waste than putting it into Earth. More health is always a bonus, but at the same time it's an ele hero and it *shouldn't* be out front. Also I find heroes are idiots when using glyphs, and glyph of elemental power seems to be the only one they really don't mess up. 9/10 I have BR in my party so I don't really worry too much about it, the energy management during battle seems to hold it up enough, they use shock arrow fantasticly. In extended battles GoLE would be a better choice, but micro managing it to make sure it's effective can be difficult or problematic depending on your profession choice.

In the end when you rune it's really personal choice, (assuming with the runes on this build) which do you want - +12 e or +100 hp? I just prefer energy over health.

Well, here's one fantastic reason you need so much shutdown. Since your main skill to be spammed is bsurge and you have multiple 10+ energy skills, heroes will use GoLE fine. The problem arises when there are only 5 energy skills on the bar. With GoLE, you can add another hundred health and give crappy hero monks more time to react to damage. Also, please tel me you don't bring BR on a hero as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

@Life Bringing
Actually, the damage of a melee unit in HM is pretty comparable to a HM ele (if they can hit). Getting hit for 70+ damage twice every second isn't my cup of tea.

You forget that the damage of a melee unit is single target. Getting hit for 150+ damage across my entire party every second isn't my cup of tea.

Pocketmancer · Aug 07, 2009, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Why do people take out the second half of my melee comment especially when it's to respond in a way where they basically agree with me that melee can be nullified? =_=

Also, melee units can definitely hit more than one target. Cyclone Axe, Hundred Blades, and that stupid spinning Crude Swing, are quite common amongst HM foes. Let's not forget that in Factions, we tend to face Splinter Weapon buffed melee units quite often. Those hurt just as much as and all too common.

Honestly, the only time I've ever faced 150+ damage every second in HM is against Ruby Djinns, and this is from my experience in vanquishing nearly every continent completely so far. Elementalists are harder by far to shut down, but not impossible. Daze being the one key thing nearly every caller should pack IMO. (of course, that's quite a different story when you face those bloody groups of Ruby Djinns in a group of 4 or more)

Paul Dawg · Aug 07, 2009, 03:51 AM // 03:51

The best way to neutralize melee mobs is not AoE blindness but AoE weakness. Enfeebling blood ftw. Why? Because there are many other useful skills in the curses line. And not many other useful skills in the air magic line.

Life Bringing · Aug 07, 2009, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

The best way to neutralize melee mobs is not AoE blindness but AoE weakness. Enfeebling blood ftw. Why? Because there are many other useful skills in the curses line. And not many other useful skills in the air magic line.

QFT.
12chars

payne · Aug 07, 2009, 04:28 PM // 16:28

b-surge is nice but....alternative thoughts coming to mind...ward against melee? similar to aegis but not strippable
aegis again - strippable but sounds sexy haha

also - vekk = zhed's sex toy (sorry joke among me and my friends)