Curse

Gigashadow · Jul 20, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I guess my three questions are:

1. What are you going to do against blockers? The Sabway curser has defile defenses or rigor mortis. I guess that means you can put it on the N/Mo, but what would you take off for it?

2. What weapon does the second para use with 3 spear mastery?

3. How are you getting healed?

Oh, make it four questions:

4. Don't you find that in difficult areas strength of honor gets stripped so often that it doesn't even pay to bring the skill (and invest 8 points in smite for it)?

1. Blockers aren't a problem for several reasons. In addition to anything standing next to them inducing essentially permanent burning, or the poison degen from minions, or exploding minions, Sun & Moon Slash, Brawling Headbutt, and Finish Him! all ignore blocking.

Mobs generally flash their block stance once they get to about 60% health, at which point you can easily S&M, then Finish Him, and let degen/exploding minions do the rest; or Brawling Headbutt for another 70.

2. Since he has the spear of lightning skill, he needs a spear. It's there only to trigger the on-attack-skill chants.

3. The healer and prot henchies (I was using this in EoTN, which has better skill bars though), large amounts of finale of restoration triggers, dwayna's for aoe healing.

4. Not really actually. Dwayna's is often still sitting on me, or you can pre-cast it or death nova before charging in if it's really a problem. Even in places like Vloxen it's only moderately annoying, and still worthwhile to have, and I'll certainly have my necro spend 2 seconds recasting it if it gets stripped mid-battle. The Dwayna's/Death Nova enchants are so spread around that the only time you'll really get stripped is when you charge in first.

Paul Dawg · Jul 21, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Well, you and I have different experiences about Nos. 1 and 4.

Stances are not the only kinds of blocks; there's also aegis and stuff like that (edit to add: anti-melee wards can be a real downer too). I find that any hero team based on a human physical has to have some kind of blocking counter because if the physical starts missing with his attacks, he doesn't accumulate adren for his critical skills and the whole team starts getting gimped. Shrug. Maybe it works for you.

As for No. 4: I experimented with strength of honor when they buffed it because it seemed too good to pass up for a human physical. Then I noticed how often it would get stripped, forcing me not only to manual it, but, more importantly, to kill the poor smiter's energy. In Vloxen HM this was a lot more than "moderately annoying": as soon as I met a new enemy mob, strength and honor was gone almost instantaneously. Since I can survive pretty much anywhere without it, I no longer see the logic of forcing a hero to do little more than keep casting and recasting a skill that doesn't last on me long enough to make a difference anyway.

Dusk_ · Jul 22, 2009, 12:59 AM // 00:59

I haven't tested this build, but just from a cursory glance it looks like your two paragons could be condensed into a single build, and your Channeling/Smiting buffs into another. Something like this Rt/Mo seems like it would be far more effective , covering the spirit allies, SoH, Splinter Weapon, plus having condition/hex removal that works well with the melee-range theme.

EDIT: Alright, purely theory-craft here, but:

Ol' Yeller Paragon - P/Mo
Leadership 11+1
Command 10+1+1
Motivation 10+1
Spear Mastery 1

"Go for the Eyes"
"They're on Fire!"
"Find their Weakness!"
Blazing Finale
Anthem of Envy
Anthem of Weariness
Stunning Strike {E} / Empathic Removal {E}
"We shall Return!"

Buffer - Rt/Mo
Channeling 12+1+1
Smiting 12
Spawning Power 3+1

Signet of Spirits {E}
Siphon Spirit
Splinter Weapon
Castigation Signet
Strength of Honor
Smite Condition
Smite Hex
Flesh of Flesh

Obligatory Necromancer - N/Any
Death Magic 12+3+1
Curses 10+1
Soul Reaping 8+1

Aura of the Lich {E}
Animate Bone Minions
Death Nova
Barbs
Mark of Pain
Rigor Mortis
Foul Feast
Signet of Lost Souls

The Paragon is probably terrible, but eh. Team build would probably be you as a Melee, plus two monks and two melee henches.

Gigashadow · Jul 22, 2009, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Combining the two paragons like that kills all of the shout synergy the build had, with the constant shout-ends triggering effects. It also lowers the shout throughput a lot since one guy can only cast them so fast. There is also no way that guy would have enough energy to use that bar.

You don't need an AOE rez on the paragon in addition to another rez on the Rt/Mo, and 2 more on the hench monks. I also prefer Death Pact Signet on a Ritualist to something like Flesh of my Flesh, as it gets someone back into the battle while it is still possible to recover from the situation. The hench monks have the more conventional rez spells.

You got rid of Enfeebling Blood from the necro, and replaced it with Anthem of Weariness on the paragon, but Enfeebling Blood is so much better. Heroes will attack what you attack, and as a side effect proc AoW; the heroes don't know they're causing weakness, so they don't try to spread it around. Enfeebling Blood the necro will spread around on targets that don't have it, and it's also AOE, and costs only 1e.

Mark of pain is not something I like to put on heroes, as they don't use it well. I noticed you got rid of the enchantment removal. Personally, I always keep Rip Enchantment somewhere in a build, it's always useful.

You also removed Dwayna's Sorrow, so now there is no way to deal with AOE party damage. I usually try to have an AOE heal in the build somewhere, where it is PwK, Dwayna's, or a Resto paragon, etc.

You suggested melee henchies, but the melee AI is not very good, so they are best avoided.

I don't think your build would work, it seems it's given up a lot without gaining that much, but if you try it out let me know how it goes.

Paul Dawg · Jul 22, 2009, 01:54 PM // 13:54

I don't like Dusk's team. The Rt/Mo is going to run out of energy very quickly (like--in less than a minute of combat), and I agree with Gigashadow that mark of pain isn't a great skill for heroes and that taking off dwayna's sorrow represents a serious loss.

I didn't dislike the combined para bar, actually, but I like the one that I recently posted at the end of Racthoh's sticky a lot better. Lately I'm kinda meh on Command skills.

Dusk_ · Jul 23, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I don't like Dusk's team. The Rt/Mo is going to run out of energy very quickly (like--in less than a minute of combat), and I agree with Gigashadow that mark of pain isn't a great skill for heroes and that taking off dwayna's sorrow represents a serious loss.

Siphon Spirit + 3 spirits = a lot of energy. Enough to maintain three enchantments, usually.

And yeah, I know the build was missing a lot. I'd be interested to see if the MM could be removed entirely. About frontline henches, I know they suck, but it seems so wasteful to have a build dedicated to frontliners while only having one.

Paul Dawg · Jul 23, 2009, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Not at 4 spawning power. I use that trick at 14 spawning power, and even then it's not always enough energy. Remember, you want this guy to spam splinter weapon like crazy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Siphon Spirit + 3 spirits = a lot of energy.

speedy21589 · Jul 23, 2009, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Not at 4 spawning power. I use that trick at 14 spawning power, and even then it's not always enough energy. Remember, you want this guy to spam splinter weapon like crazy.

Isn't Siphon Spirit under Channeling?

evilsofa · Jul 23, 2009, 04:07 PM // 16:07

I'm still running with this build. The only change I've made was giving the Command Paragon Death Pact Signet instead of Anthem Of Disruption. They use it very effectively. I was doing a poor job of pulling in the Sepulchre of Dragrimmar hard mode, and wound up wiping the group many times; I was down to 60% DP while the Command Paragon had a 10% bonus.

Yes, I know I'm not very good if I'm wiping the group like that, but this build with Death Pact Signet seems very forgiving. I haven't had time to try this on unforgiving dungeons like hard mode Vloxen or Rragar's yet. I might not ever go back to Vloxen again since I managed to beat it in Hard Mode once, but I have yet to get Rragar's hard mode done.

Gigashadow · Jul 23, 2009, 07:36 PM // 19:36

One of the things I was trying to do with this build, apart from having fun with the shout theme, was to cram as many of my favorite build aspects into one build as I could. Minions, splinter weapon, dwayna's, signet of spirits, AOE burning, strength of honor, hex removals, it's all in there. But to cram all that in you end up with very bizarre looking character builds, although it does in fact work very well. I should probably look at it again and tune it some more, it was a lot of fun putting that together.

You can remove "Find their Weakness!" from the command paragon and replace it with something else. I've decided I don't like that skill any more, it's a bit too expensive for what it is, and the recharge is too long.

Lately I've been playing with another build that uses Chest Thumper on a paragon, Weaken Armor on a necro, and a 14 chaneling Rt with Ancestors Rage, and so far I'm really happy with the extremely rapid applications of deep wound and Ancestors' damage (and other goodies). I'll post that build when I've finalized it, but it takes a while to watch the AI under a lot of situations and really tune the skills.

This is especially true for paragons, as there is a feedback effect; the more adrenaline you get and the faster you get it, the faster you can spam skills and the better energy management you have. But when at zero energy, paragons will be forced to wait for adrenaline skills to charge and then use them to get out of the energy hole, so when tuning builds you really need to watch their energy constantly during a battle and see if they keep getting stuck in that hole and constantly bouncing off zero. You also need to see if they can keep "They're on Fire!" up, or if they lack the energy to do so. It gets even harder when trying to tune 2 paragons in the same build if there is any sort of cross-dependency in adrenaline gaining skills or shouts.

re: Spirit Siphon. I do use this these days, but only because a 14 channeling ritualist is so much fun to play with (and 14 Ancestors' is really under-rated, even without cracked armor; yes, I know, high armor values in hard mode, but still, it's quite good!). Make no mistake, it's no Soul Reaping though. You'll get a lot back the first time it uses it, and maybe more afterwords if he's kited around so that a different spirit is closer. It will only target the closest spirit, and the AI will use it even if it won't get much back from it, so sometimes you will need to manually force a re-cast Signet of Spirits so it has fresh spirits with energy. Generally things die fast enough that worrying about long drawn out battles is not a problem. However, I'm thinking about giving him some energy help from a motivation paragon.

Paul Dawg · Jul 24, 2009, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Oops, my mistake. I thought he meant boon of creation, but of course his build said siphon spirit. Well, I don't find siphon spirit very reliable for energy maintenance because the spirit they raid depends on where they happen to be standing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedy21589

Isn't Siphon Spirit under Channeling?

syphonus · Jul 24, 2009, 08:49 PM // 20:49

D-throw on the Motigon is a better bet than spear of lightning.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 25, 2009, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Gigashadow

The idea is actually beter than you might think, I use this on my Warrior and Assassin it kills very fast and 300dmg hits on some targets makes me smile.

Anyway, I dropped Foul Feast because Henchies and Purifying Finale is enough condition removal and replace it with Barbs. Spear of Lightning wont trigger the hex from what I know but minions and normal autoattacking would, that in the end turns into quite an impressive damage boost. Also thinking of replacing Barbs with Weaken Armor and Chest Thumper on one of the paragons for more dw spammage.

Gigashadow · Jul 25, 2009, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Gigashadow

The idea is actually beter than you might think, I use this on my Warrior and Assassin it kills very fast and 300dmg hits on some targets makes me smile.

Anyway, I dropped Foul Feast because Henchies and Purifying Finale is enough condition removal and replace it with Barbs. Spear of Lightning wont trigger the hex from what I know but minions and normal autoattacking would, that in the end turns into quite an impressive damage boost. Also thinking of replacing Barbs with Weaken Armor and Chest Thumper on one of the paragons for more dw spammage.

I have definitely come to appreciate Weaken Armor a lot over Barbs. I used to be pretty down on Weaken Armor, but that is only because I tried to add it to a curse necro that was already using Barbs, and that doesn't really work, because you usually don't manage to get both on (things die too fast, and it seems to prioritize spamming Barbs). I could see it was rarely applying Weaken Armor because Body Blow would almost never trigger.

However, taking out Barbs and replacing it with Weaken Armor, it's an entirely different story. Weaken Armor is nice because it is a 1s cast vs 2s for Barbs, it's AOE so you can often avoid multiple casts, and it benefits elemental damage (ancestors' etc), and higher crit rates (GftE). Even if you valued Weaken Armor less than Barbs, the necro spends so much less time casting Weaken Armor on things than it did Barbs, it has much more time available to get on with using its other skills.

I think even when using a minion bomber, Barbs is not that great, because the minions are spread out all over the place, and take a while to walk to the next target mid-fight, which often dies so quickly anyway. However, with a conventional minion master (not bomber) with the ranged minions which don't have to walk anywhere, I think Barbs is still a great choice.

I will say that the Weaken Armor/Chest Thumper combo is working really well for me on another setup (and it enables me to replace Finish Him! with Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support, who benefits nicely from cracked armor), but I don't think you can make it work here, because Weaken Armor would be on the Minion Bomber, and minion bombers place a HUGE priority on spamming Death Nova on things, spending almost all of their time casting it in fact. I am actually kind of down on minions these days, and run without them.

beagle warrior · Aug 22, 2009, 09:50 PM // 21:50

i just tried this build out today on a vq and it is awesome. I actually had to double check to see if i was in HM lol. thank you very much for posting this build. I just have two questions...

1) wut hench do u use? when i was vqing (in nf) i used the two monks, a derv, and a war

2) have u thought about a 6 hero version of this?

thanks

-beagle

Zicmu · Aug 25, 2009, 11:00 AM // 11:00

this is awsome :O
i use the 2 monk hench and hammer hench and earth hench with the heroes.. im Dervish using Avatar of Dwayna, brawling headbutt, Eremite's Attack, Mystic Sweep, asura scan, Eternal Aura, Faithful Intervention, res sig.

doing around 100dmg each hit it goes very fast with the killing

kanuks · Sep 02, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Oops, my mistake. I thought he meant boon of creation, but of course his build said siphon spirit. Well, I don't find siphon spirit very reliable for energy maintenance because the spirit they raid depends on where they happen to be standing.

Spirit Siphon is a very powerful energy management skill when used with SoS. It's one of the best and Heroes uses it very well. Better than Offering of Spirit and it's not even an elite.

Paul Dawg · Sep 03, 2009, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

Spirit Siphon is a very powerful energy management skill when used with SoS.

That hasn't quite been my experience because the spirit that gets targeted depends entirely on where the hero happens to be standing at that moment, and if he targets the same spirit twice, there isn't going to be any energy gain to speak of.