Curse

Syntax42 · Jul 14, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

I am returning from a very long break from this game. Lets just say there was only Tyria when I last played, so I am looking for something to help me get through the "new" PvE content without having to rely on other people too much. I have failed to complete Thunderhead after about 20 total attempts due to people making foolish mistakes, so a complete solo build seems like a great option to me. After doing a lot of reading, Discordway seems like it is the overall best for general PvE content, with few modifications needed to deal with specific encounters.

It seems like it must be unclear or there wouldn't be a ten-page debate on the effectiveness of an AP caller for this build, but I am convinced that I should be using a caller after reading the first page. My question is this: which primary profession would synergize best with this build, to fill the last four skills the player has on their bar? (I'm referring to the build on PvX wiki) It seems an assassin secondary is a good choice for the caller, so which primary profession for the player can speed things up or make this build stronger in most situations?

Improvavel · Jul 14, 2009, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syntax42

It seems like it must be unclear or there wouldn't be a ten-page debate on the effectiveness of an AP caller for this build, but I am convinced that I should be using a caller after reading the first page. My question is this: which primary profession would synergize best with this build, to fill the last four skills the player has on their bar? (I'm referring to the build on PvX wiki) It seems an assassin secondary is a good choice for the caller, so which primary profession for the player can speed things up or make this build stronger in most situations?

First, the AP caller is effective.

This thread is about the ability to run discord necros and enjoy its benefits (mostly the incredible spam rate necro heroes have due to soul reaping) without having to rely on an AP caller.

I've heard, in game, several people complaining that they were bored of playing discordway with their dervishes or assassins. Their reason? Because they had to play AP caller.

I started this thread to destroy that misconception. You can still enjoy most if not all of the discord necro benefits without having to chance your playstyle. Additionally to show that the necro/rit, necro/rit, necro/monk weren't the only options for the 3 discord necros.

Answering your question, the best choice for AP caller would be Necromancer.

But, again, if you don't want to play an AP caller or dislike it, using other builds can work.

I've legendary guardians and legendary vanquishers, and many of those missions/areas were completed with 3 discords and no AP caller. I've also did them with a Necro Ap caller, and I must say differences aren't significant.

Its more a playstyle difference - with AP caller your build is much more spike oriented. With others, you have occasional spikes mixed with sustained damage.

upier · Jul 14, 2009, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syntax42

I am returning from a very long break from this game. Lets just say there was only Tyria when I last played, so I am looking for something to help me get through the "new" PvE content without having to rely on other people too much. I have failed to complete Thunderhead after about 20 total attempts due to people making foolish mistakes, so a complete solo build seems like a great option to me. After doing a lot of reading, Discordway seems like it is the overall best for general PvE content, with few modifications needed to deal with specific encounters.

It seems like it must be unclear or there wouldn't be a ten-page debate on the effectiveness of an AP caller for this build, but I am convinced that I should be using a caller after reading the first page. My question is this: which primary profession would synergize best with this build, to fill the last four skills the player has on their bar? (I'm referring to the build on PvX wiki) It seems an assassin secondary is a good choice for the caller, so which primary profession for the player can speed things up or make this build stronger in most situations?

Since Discord is so obscenely strong, pretty much any caster can run it without much issues. The discussion here is pretty much pointing out the difference between 3 sec kills and something like 5 sec kills.
So, you might as well choose a guy that seems most fun to you.
If you are willing to go with the best option though - regardless if you find it fun or not - then necro.
Always necro.
You'll have obscene energy from Soul Reaping and Curses have some of the best hexes in the game - stuff like Reckless Haste, Mark Or Pain, Barbs, Shadow Of Fear and the ability to spread one of the best conditions - Weakness.
Necro is just broken.

My personal favourite though is the ritualist. Cutest outfits and coolest casting animations.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 14, 2009, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Syntax42

I'd say best professions to go with Discordway are Necro and Assassin.

Necro for it's amazing energy management and very good performance with AP Caller by adding MoP and Barbs to the mix for powerful nukes.
Assassin for versatility that you get from having 9 secondary professions for you to chose from, this includes powerful energy management options, back up hexes, conditions ect.
Both Necro and Assassin are the most in demand classes at the moment and you will be always needed in speed clears of all sorts.

Syntax42 · Jul 15, 2009, 12:04 AM // 00:04

After reading all the helpful input, I will probably make an Assassin. As mentioned, AP calling may get boring, so I want something that feels like I'm doing something different if I choose to not be a target caller. Necros don't seem to have much versatility as far as roles go. They are either debuff/nukers or minion masters (or healers, but then you're just a Necro pretending to be a Monk or Ritualist). Being a caster would feel the same, no matter what build I play. Assassins look like a better choice for an overall class, being able to switch builds for DPS, Shadowform tanking, or an excellent runner. I usually enjoy melee classes in games more than pure casters, so Assassin seems like it will be more of my cup of tea.

Thanks again for the advice.

By the way, I have a Fang gamepad I plan to use to control my heroes better. Since this game only has eight slots for spells, that leaves button 9, 10, and 11 (yes, it goes up to 11) that I can use for hero control. I could use 9 to set off one or more hero's hex, 10 to activate a condition, and 11 to set off all 3 (or 4 if I have one) Discords at the same time. Programmable buttons are nice like that. As long as the AI is programmed to use my current target when I command them to use a skill or spell, it should work out nicely for controlling burst damage when I want it.

AtomicMew · Jul 15, 2009, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

First, the AP caller is effective.

This thread is about the ability to run discord necros and enjoy its benefits (mostly the incredible spam rate necro heroes have due to soul reaping) without having to rely on an AP caller.

I've heard, in game, several people complaining that they were bored of playing discordway with their dervishes or assassins. Their reason? Because they had to play AP caller.

I started this thread to destroy that misconception. You can still enjoy most if not all of the discord necro benefits without having to chance your playstyle. Additionally to show that the necro/rit, necro/rit, necro/monk weren't the only options for the 3 discord necros.

Answering your question, the best choice for AP caller would be Necromancer.

But, again, if you don't want to play an AP caller or dislike it, using other builds can work.

I've legendary guardians and legendary vanquishers, and many of those missions/areas were completed with 3 discords and no AP caller. I've also did them with a Necro Ap caller, and I must say differences aren't significant.

Its more a playstyle difference - with AP caller your build is much more spike oriented. With others, you have occasional spikes mixed with sustained damage.

Again, the problem with triple discord with melee is that there is no synergy. You say you can attack another target while your discorders chew on another target. The problem with this thinking is doing this destroys the ability to spike.

I've already shown you that OotV is strictly superior damage when you take at least one other physical hench. So unless you enjoy playing subpar builds, you admit that the discordway you are talking about actually only has 2 discorders.

But wait, look again.

If your targets are lasting > 6 seconds, which they are if you split targets, then SS is also strictly superior damage, single target AND AoE as well. Why not take SS and not even waste attribute splitting? The answer is there is no reason NOT to. So you are down to 1 discorder, maximum.

But why even bother at this point? Your damage is already spread out due to your play style. You might as well take Xinrae or WoR on your resto. And while not strictly superior damage like OotV and SS, it prots, heals and casts in 1/4 second.

Is this starting to look familiar? Yes, it's starting to look sabway!

With the playstyle you describe, there are other elites which are strictly superior to discord. Discord reigns supreme for single target spiking. There is, at the very least, no reason for ALL your heroes to take discord. If you can at least admit this, then there has been some progress.

Improvavel · Jul 15, 2009, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Snip

I already know you play in a GW version where you can spike, run, spike 2s later, run, spike 2s later, run, etc, till the enemy mob is down, and in those 2s the enemy is not going to deal any damage to your party.

For those of us that play in lesser GW versions, spiking every 4s and/or shifting targets to cause more AoE damage or pressure is much more acceptable.

Also, for us that play in lesser GW versions replacing a defensive hero, with some offense, for a hero that keeps saccing health, has no direct offense, and at most bring, some not really strong, heals and some hex removal is quite different. With 6 heroes is alot easier to counter that.

Also, since when is the only options spike or sustained over time damage?

It is good to have both.

AtomicMew · Jul 15, 2009, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I already know you play in a GW version where you can spike, run, spike 2s later, run, spike 2s later, run, etc, till the enemy mob is down, and in those 2s the enemy is not going to deal any damage to your party.

For those of us that play in lesser GW versions, spiking every 4s and/or shifting targets to cause more AoE damage or pressure is much more acceptable.

Why do you insist on speaking to me like this?

I actually AGREE with you that pressure is very underrated. That's why I suggested pressure elites like OotV, SS, XW, etc.

I've tried discordway H/H with melee, and I found it to be lacking. For example, I tried it in Grothmar, but perma aegis block and lots of condi-removal meant a fast death for me. I then tried a more pressure oriented setup, and I cut through it like butter.

In other places, I didn't find a difference in killing speed at all.

Quote:

Also, for us that play in lesser GW versions replacing a defensive hero, with some offense, for a hero that keeps saccing health, has no direct offense, and at most bring, some not really strong, heals and some hex removal is quite different.

If you're talking about OotV, OotV provides an INCREDIBLE amount of party healing. (Give your hero spears). Also, it's pretty awesome with the barrage hero in EotN. The sac is easily countered by giving your hero a spear and going OotV/resto. Also OotV actually takes up less time than discord.

Improvavel · Jul 15, 2009, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I've tried discordway H/H with melee, and I found it to be lacking. For example, I tried it in Grothmar, but perma aegis block and lots of condi-removal meant a fast death for me. I then tried a more pressure oriented setup, and I cut through it like butter.

And I cut trough that one with 2 copies of rip enchantment.

Quote:

If you're talking about OotV, OotV provides an INCREDIBLE amount of party healing. (Give your hero spears). Also, it's pretty awesome with the barrage hero in EotN. The sac is easily countered by giving your hero a spear and going OotV/resto. Also OotV actually takes up less time than discord.

I use spears. I still don't want them to attack unless they have to. And still not solves the 17% sudden health drop.

mage767 · Sep 13, 2009, 07:33 AM // 07:33

All of you guys who are arguing back-up your 'claims' with statistics.

Go to Great Temple and then master of damage.

Try your version of discordway or whateverway and report the results here.

Give a 3 min total damage report and DPS average over this period, as shown in chat window.

(Just you and your 3 nec or 3 XXX heroes).

MercenaryKnight · Sep 13, 2009, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Master of damage is pointless. I could get huge/ insane damage per second by using a 1 hp order of undeath necromancer. Having a ton of spirits all focused fire on him will cause more dps than actually done. Cause spirits take time to aggro different monsters/ get killed and stuff.

Theres a difference between ideal dps and actual dps you get while fighting in hard areas.

Tenebrae · Sep 13, 2009, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

All of you guys who are arguing back-up your 'claims' with statistics.

Go to Great Temple and then master of damage.

Try your version of discordway or whateverway and report the results here.

Give a 3 min total damage report and DPS average over this period, as shown in chat window.

(Just you and your 3 nec or 3 XXX heroes).

Well the correct time of the verb should be were because last post was on july 15th you know ? . MoD means nothing but i would really like to see a video with those "stats" and "times" some ppl claim to have .

Improvavel · Sep 13, 2009, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

All of you guys who are arguing back-up your 'claims' with statistics.

Go to Great Temple and then master of damage.

Try your version of discordway or whateverway and report the results here.

Give a 3 min total damage report and DPS average over this period, as shown in chat window.

(Just you and your 3 nec or 3 XXX heroes).

Sincerely the point of this thread wasn't to find the optimal build, although in the heat of discussion everyone can go to extremes to defend their own positions.

Even today there is a thread on warrior sub forums asking if you can use discord heroes with a warrior.

Most people assume Discord Heroes -> require AP caller.

I started this thread to disabuse that notion.

I present some builds and ideas for tweaks.

People can go try them and then decide what works better for them - not everyone like casters role and others don't like melee role.

What I can promise you is that if you are a competent player both will work at around the same speed in normal circumstances, this is, not an area where melee is heavily countered or casters are heavily countered. Although both will work even on that situation, just not as good.

MercenaryKnight · Sep 13, 2009, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Not using atleast 1 ap caller is less efficient (imo) when using discordway. It will make spikes quicker which will result in less damage being taken. Being able to spam finish him's or pain inverters will result in a lot more damage.

You don't have to bring it for discordway to work, but it is one of the best additions to the group you can bring. If it were a truly hard area I would bring 1 sy spammer and 1 ap caller with 6 discord heroes.

Improvavel · Sep 14, 2009, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Not using atleast 1 ap caller is less efficient (imo) when using discordway. It will make spikes quicker which will result in less damage being taken. Being able to spam finish him's or pain inverters will result in a lot more damage.

You don't have to bring it for discordway to work, but it is one of the best additions to the group you can bring. If it were a truly hard area I would bring 1 sy spammer and 1 ap caller with 6 discord heroes.

Good to see that in this thread (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10401660 ) some warrior players are claiming to efficiently use discord while not playing AP caller.

A thing you need to consider is that even if with an AP caller discord necros are more efficient (and from my personal experience that both play melee chars and casters the difference is negligible) that doesn't stop physical char+discords necros being more efficient than sabs for example.

Saraneth · Sep 14, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary Knight

Being able to spam finish him's or pain inverters will result in a lot more damage.

I'll agree with the use of Finish Him; however, as discord is a spike build, the use of Pain Inverter seems inefficient for most situations. (This traces back to the proactive vs. reactive hex argument.) You would probably be better off sticking with YMLaD, Finish Him, and some other random pve skill, like Technobabble, for an AP discord caller.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary Knight

If it were a truly hard area I would bring... 6 discord heroes.

Use of six discord heroes is rather redundant, especially when most enemies don't survive the initial spike from the AP caller and three discords.

Improvavel · Sep 15, 2009, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraneth

I'll agree with the use of Finish Him; however, as discord is a spike build, the use of Pain Inverter seems inefficient for most situations. (This traces back to the proactive vs. reactive hex argument.) You would probably be better off sticking with YMLaD, Finish Him, and some other random pve skill, like Technobabble, for an AP discord caller.

Use of six discord heroes is rather redundant, especially when most enemies don't survive the initial spike from the AP caller and three discords.

Have to agree on both.

Spirit spammers, Paragons with fall back, RoJ monks (or necros) are quite useful alternatives to extra discords.

MercenaryKnight · Sep 16, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraneth

I'll agree with the use of Finish Him; however, as discord is a spike build, the use of Pain Inverter seems inefficient for most situations. (This traces back to the proactive vs. reactive hex argument.) You would probably be better off sticking with YMLaD, Finish Him, and some other random pve skill, like Technobabble, for an AP discord caller.

Use of six discord heroes is rather redundant, especially when most enemies don't survive the initial spike from the AP caller and three discords.

You don't understand my use of pain inverter. I don't use it on the spike victim. I will prime the target then cast pain inverter on a different high damage enemy. Doing that will usually get it to half health or kill itself without even having to discord it.

I just find that there isn't a whole lot of elites you need to add for me. Having multiple discords mean that healers can attack before healing is needed. If they have healers or self heals and initial spike fails the other spike will quickly occur again because of having more heroes to cast discord.

I don't find myself really having much else use for most other elites. I am sure I could efficiently find maybe 2-3 supportive elites that could run better than additional discords. But I am lazy and it works so that's how I will roll it for my lazyman version.

Saraneth · Sep 17, 2009, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

You don't understand my use of pain inverter.

Whether or not it's used on the primary target is irrelevant. There are better alternatives than Pain Inverter.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t=reactive+hex

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

If they have healers or self heals and initial spike fails the other spike will quickly occur again because of having more heroes to cast discord.

Discord has a two-second recharge. You don't need another three Discord heroes to finish a single target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

But I am lazy and it works so that's how I will roll it for my lazyman version.

Laziness doesn't translate to efficiency.

MercenaryKnight · Sep 17, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraneth

Whether or not it's used on the primary target is irrelevant. There are better alternatives than Pain Inverter.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t=reactive+hex

Discord has a two-second recharge. You don't need another three Discord heroes to finish a single target.

Laziness doesn't translate to efficiency.

You realize they aren't casting discord every 2 seconds. They will utilize other skills in their builds besides that. So if you have 2 of your discords doing something like healing and summoning minions your damage has been drastically cut for those few seconds.

I also said that there can be other things better for efficiency usage. But to me, the fact that you won't always have all 3 necromancers casting discord at once (besides microing the discord which is useful to some but interrupting an important heal or protective spirit or something can be bad). I just bring 6 of them so even if 2-3 are casting something else the others can still spam discord.