Curse

Improvavel · Jul 10, 2009, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Ah... I think I see the problem. You are thinking you need to micro discord with an AP caller.

If you don't micro, they might or might not cast discord - so, your 2-3 secs kills might or might not.

Do we agree?

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You do not need all your discorders to use discord to do your chain. A full chain alone does 250 (shouts) + ~200 (EVAS) = ~450 damage. Let's say your target has 600 HP (for the record, charr have even less). You do not need all heroes to use discord on your target = 300 damage, because that's overkill. Even just 1 discord + random hench/AoE/degen etc. is enough to kill off the target.

First, unless you have all max ranks and your necros are all 16 death, that damage will be a tad lower and of course is ignoring any heals or the mobs or any other problems.

But that isn't the point.

The point is, if the kill doesn't happen in 2-3 secs, the physical character will have more time to do its stuff.

If I remember, you were stating that a MS/DB wouldn't be able to do death blossom and stuff.

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After the first couple targets, the remaining targets have already taken damage from AoE, and don't even need a full chain most of the time. A lot of the time,you can even get away with just AP + FH! to kill instantly, refilling your energy as well.

Assuming the same situation for the physicals, you can call (you know just do ctrl-space) on one target while you got hit someone else for example, and you are wiping 2 or 3 targets at the same time.

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Do you understand now?

From the start I stated that the advantage of a caller is the first target, because after the AoE conditions and hexes are spread, it doesn't matter since discords will trigger and kill their targets.

You on the other hand stated that nonono if you don't cast the conditions and hexes yourself, discord wont trigger as much and it will take longer to kill, but if you don't micro discord then the HEROES WILL CAST OTHER STUFF AS WELL, so you 2 secs kills might or might not happen.

And if those 2 secs kills aren't happening, well the MS/DB or other physicals, like earth shaker and dragon slash warriors or scythe physicals, will extra time to inflict their damage.

Improvavel · Jul 10, 2009, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnivorous Cupcake

Improvavel

I still fail to see where the people you have quoted denied occasional need to micro Discord. I also don't understand why you see this as a downside of AP Caller + Discords exclusively because it's the same story as with Melee + Discord. Unreal Havoc has summarised this very well in his post.

I will put it simple:

If people don't micro discord, those 2 secs kills might or might not happen. As you put it up, it isn't a downside only of the AP caller, it will happen if you don't micro.

But now, if you don't kill in 2 secs, there is no problem if it is your heroes/henchies casting the conditions and the hexes, is there?

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It is also true that Discords will sometimes spike on their own, mine spike on their own very often I only force spikes when they start healing too much or go on a minion raising frenzy. Thats also the reason why I fearz giving them to much other stuff like melee hexes ect.

Thing is, unless your necros don't have a full bar, some of that will come out
for the melee hexes and other stuff.

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Now, the builds you have listed all havent got a very good burst damage, they also have to gimp their bars to become callers.

Of course your burst damage is FH, which means the target needs to be under 50%.

Calling is quite simple - you press ctrl+space. There, your target will now be attacked by all your heroes and henchmen.

Don't confuse calling with fulfilling the discord requirements.

So they don't have to gimp anything to become one. Some physical builds, if not most, cause some sort of condition and some bring asuran scan because it is a good way of boost your damage.

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They dont have a ranged unblockable spike like AP Caller, they cant make a kd lock as effectively, it takes them more time to apply all the Discord requrements.

No one is denying that YMLAS+EVAS+FH is quite powerful, but have you ever seen an earth shaker warrior at work? Or a brawling head butt dragon slash warrior? They can knock pretty well.

Again they don't have to apply the requirements for discord. Heroes can and will do so.

Don't forget that some of those hexes/conditions will be AoE, meaning they will only have to do it once or twice and not apply to every single target.

Also remember that those physicals don't have long recharge skills that need to be recharged by AP, so they can give up a second or two in the beginning and not become a 0 damage threat.

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Two of these builds are also melee that means they have to run to the target first before they can assist the spike

I'm not sure what builds you are talking about, because this thread is about all physical characters, so I suspect that there is more than just 2 builds.

Yes they need to run to the target, but once they enter range, the mobs will run to the melee as well and start hitting him. Then they may or not go attack the backline, especially the enemy frontline, but at this point both the melee and the AP caller are at the same situation. Of course the melee might be bodyblocking, completely denying the enemy melee access to his backline and providing a nice ball of enemies for AoE.

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not to mention that all of those builds are very voulnerable to block, adrenaline and shout denial

I hardly think that an assassin is very vulnerable to adrenaline or shout denial (which basically happens in later nightfall), although an AP caller is vulnerable (and quite at that) to shout denial.

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on top of mass hex and condition removal.

Have you seen the builds I posted?

I see foul feast and convert/remove hexes. And I also see minions.

A good thing of being melee, is that either they cast on you and the minions, or the backline. If they cast on you remove hex/convert hexes and foul feast, can remove quite a few of them, if not they wont hit you so you are fine.

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So for Discord physical builds are inferior to AP Caller.

Ok. Physical chars have counters so booooooo to them.

Caster also have them.

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I also dont understand why you want a team that won't spam Discord as often, I really dont.

Are you microing it? Cause if you aren't they will cast other stuff.

So they are casting discord as often as your guys are.

I think it is better if you post builds, so we can see what exactly they are casting or not casting.

AtomicMew · Jul 10, 2009, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

If you don't micro, they might or might not cast discord - so, your 2-3 secs kills might or might not.

Do we agree?

Disagree... I've already shown you math stating otherwise. Even if it DOES take longer (which happens), you aren't simply sitting around doing nothing. For example, A/Rt, casts splinter weapon adding 160 damage in 1.75 s. Even Death Blossom can't do that.

Improvavel · Jul 11, 2009, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Disagree... I've already shown you math stating otherwise. Even if it DOES take longer (which happens), you aren't simply sitting around doing nothing. For example, A/Rt, casts splinter weapon adding 160 damage in 1.75 s. Even Death Blossom can't do that.

So not only does the A/RT has 16 deadly arts, it also has 16 channelling magic?!?!?!?

I though max channelling an assassin could use was 12. You mean 123 if you hit 1 guy with 3 targets adjacent, right?

I will have to say that if a death blossom hits a clump of 4 guys adjacent, at daggers 14 it will deal 86 armor ignoring damage (from the skill only) times 4, for a 344 total armor ignoring damage.

Unreal Havoc · Jul 11, 2009, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So not only does the A/RT has 16 deadly arts, it also has 16 channelling magic?!?!?!?

I though max channelling an assassin could use was 12. You mean 123 if you hit 1 guy with 3 targets adjacent, right?

I will have to say that if a death blossom hits a clump of 4 guys adjacent, at daggers 14 it will deal 86 armor ignoring damage (from the skill only) times 4, for a 344 total armor ignoring damage.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Splinter_Weapon

At attribute 12 Channelling, Splinter Weapon produces 4 hits at 41 damage each at upto 3 adjacent targets.

41x4=164

164x3=492

Improvavel · Jul 11, 2009, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Splinter_Weapon

At attribute 12 Channelling, Splinter Weapon produces 4 hits at 41 damage each at upto 3 adjacent targets.

41x4=164

164x3=492

In 1.75 secs, which is the wand attack speed?

And it is more like:

41*3=123

123*4=492

Unreal Havoc · Jul 11, 2009, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

In 1.75 secs, which is the wand attack speed?

Put it on the EVAS if you're quick enough. Even if you miss it on the first chain it will still be on the EVAS for the second chain along with another EVAS on top, which "technically" you could also apply it on and provide alot of AoE damage in a short amount of time just from Splinter Weapon alone nevermind Putrid Bile and Death Nova.

It's an effective tactic if implemented correctly. There is a Ritualist build focused on multiple copies of EVAS and spamming Splinter Weapon and Ancestors Rage on them along with Explosive Growth.

I use a variant of it to good effect.

I'm not saying this is the best way to play only that it is a viable tactic to use.

Tenebrae · Jul 11, 2009, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Put it on the EVAS if you're quick enough.

HAHAHHAHA yeah and GDW too if you are quick enough 0.0001 reflexes and 0.0001 cast on each skill right ?

DB at Dagger 15 does 90 ignoring to 3 adj = 270. +90 on Target 360 every 2 fking secnds. Add +35 from moebius while DB on recharge , equals 395 overall damage
While it takes you 7 seconds to deal 492 dmg ( on dream conditions and target not dying , same applies to MS/DB then ) in 6 seconds MS/DB has dealt 395x3 = 1185 dmg so cut the crap please.

PS: Show some brains and dont bother to bring up something like "switching targets or something" .Seems like you AP lovers are playing a diff copy of GW , sponsored by "outer limits" feat unlimited energy.com

Improvavel · Jul 11, 2009, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Put it on the EVAS if you're quick enough. Even if you miss it on the first chain it will still be on the EVAS for the second chain along with another EVAS on top, which "technically" you could also apply it on and provide alot of AoE damage in a short amount of time just from Splinter Weapon alone nevermind Putrid Bile and Death Nova.

It's an effective tactic if implemented correctly. There is a Ritualist build focused on spamming EVAS and spamming Splinter Weapon and Ancestors Rage on them along with Explosive Growth.

And what does that have to do with my reply to traversc?

And will you be able to kill the target fast enough for AP to trigger? Will you have EVAS actually recharged?

Because if I remember correctly, this was about what is the AP caller doing if he isn't microing and getting those 2-3 secs skills to recharge his chain.

Unreal Havoc · Jul 11, 2009, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

And it is more like:

41*3=123

123*4=492

Whichever way you look at it the end result is still the same.

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And what does that have to do with my reply to traversc?

It was a reply to you, seems you quoted me when I gave you this awnser.

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And will you be able to kill the target fast enough for AP to trigger? Will you have EVAS actually recharged?

Because if I remember correctly, this was about what is the AP caller doing if he isn't microing and getting those 2-3 secs skills to recharge his chain.

What difference does it make? It's not stopping you from using Finish Him! seems you would use Splinter Weapon after summoning the EVAS.

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HAHAHHAHA yeah and GDW too if you are quick enough 0.0001 reflexes and 0.0001 cast on each skill right ?

Sorry you are already over your quota of PvE only skills if you're running YMLaD, EVAS, and Finish Him!, not to mention you already have a KD lock on your target from YMLaD and EVAS already.

Also it's not actually hard to target a EVAS because you already know where it's going to spawn.

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DB at Dagger 15 does 90 ignoring to 3 adj = 270. +90 on Target 360 every 2 fking secnds. Add +35 from moebius while DB on recharge , equals 395 overall damage
While it takes you 7 seconds to deal 492 dmg ( on dream conditions and target not dying , same applies to MS/DB then ) in 6 seconds MS/DB has dealt 395x3 = 1185 dmg so cut the crap please.

Are you taking lead and offhand into account here? From my own experience you will only get two Death Blossoms off within 6 seconds, taking lead and offhand into account, not including time taken to move between targets.

Also read the bit where I said that I didn't think it was the best option only a viable alternative.

Here I'll throw it up for you in case you have trouble with your eyesight.

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I'm not saying this is the best way to play only that it is a viable tactic to use.

Get it?

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PS: Show some brains and dont bother to bring up something like "switching targets or something" .Seems like you AP lovers are playing a diff copy of GW , sponsored by "outer limits" feat unlimited energy.com

Spirit Siphon (if you're running two that's plenty per encounter) and high energy weapon sets say hai. What copy of Guild Wars are you playing where energy management skills and high energy sets don't exist?

Tenebrae · Jul 11, 2009, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Are you taking lead and offhand into account here? From my own experience you will only get two Death Blossoms off within 6 seconds, not including time taken to move between targets.

Yeah because now your experience is reality for everyone and ofc your wand always hits targets moving 33% faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Here I'll throw it up for you in case you have trouble with your eyesight.

Troubles ? none , is just hard to see things while you are writing and that someone edits its post 2 or 4 times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Spirit Siphon (if you're running two that's plenty per encounter) and high energy weapon sets say hai. What copy of Guild Wars are you playing where energy management skills and high energy sets don't exist?

Spirit Siphon ? on what spirit ? that one that your N ISNT CASTING because is ONLY spiking with Discord to achieve 3sec kills ? yeah right .
What copy of GW are you playing that you can cast 5 spells on mid chain and you only have to use e-management ( like its been said here ) every 20secs and get back 75+ energy ?.

1 AP lover says something , now the other differs , another one paints its own case .... ppl just make up things and brings up things when they are suitable for them lol . Every1 can play that "game", but is just that , a game , not reality on GW mechanics

Improvavel · Jul 11, 2009, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

It was a reply to you, seems you quoted me when I gave you this awnser.

For gods sake!

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

If you don't micro, they might or might not cast discord - so, your 2-3 secs kills might or might not.

Do we agree?

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Disagree... I've already shown you math stating otherwise. Even if it DOES take longer (which happens), you aren't simply sitting around doing nothing. For example, A/Rt, casts splinter weapon adding 160 damage in 1.75 s. Even Death Blossom can't do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

So not only does the A/RT has 16 deadly arts, it also has 16 channelling magic?!?!?!?

I though max channelling an assassin could use was 12. You mean 123 if you hit 1 guy with 3 targets adjacent, right?

I will have to say that if a death blossom hits a clump of 4 guys adjacent, at daggers 14 it will deal 86 armor ignoring damage (from the skill only) times 4, for a 344 total armor ignoring damage.

So traversc suggested that he can wand the enemies with splinter weapon and so do 160 damage in 1.75 secs. I'm sorry but I don't know exactly how to read those numbers except in the way I did.

And again, AP 5en, EVAS 10e, YMLA 10e, FH 10e, SW 5e. 40 energy. 16 AP gives 21 energy back.

My questions are - can you keep 2-3 secs kills without microing discord?

Do you have enough energy, casting all or most of those skills?

If you don't cast all those skills isn't your killing power diminishing?

If you cast energy management, aren't those kills getting slowed down?

All this discussion is based on the fact that AP callers are more efficient cause they, a) fulfil both discord requirements; b) kill in 2-3 seconds and, c) have 4 slots left for support.

My point is that an Assassin AP caller and the other physicals AP caller, won't be able to keep that pace unless they micro, and even then energy might become a problem. Forget about the support skills without messing up with either the 2-3 secs kill and/or the energy.

My point is that because that efficiency will disappear after the first or second target (and might not be as fast as if there are multiple healers in the enemy mob or other counters) a physical assassin (and all the others physicals) won't lose ground to the AP caller.

Also many things won't happen if you don't get a kill. Forget about kd locks if you don't kill a target to recharge your kills. Forget about doing those 250 damage if you don't drop your target to <50% health first.

Unreal Havoc · Jul 11, 2009, 12:32 PM // 12:32

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Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yeah because now your experience is reality for everyone and ofc your wand always hits targets moving 33% faster.

Who said anything about using a wand? I certainly didn't.

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Troubles ? none , is just hard to see things while you are writing and that someone edits its post 2 or 4 times.

Ok.

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Spirit Siphon ? on what spirit ? that one that your N ISNT CASTING because is ONLY spiking with Discord to achieve 3sec kills ? yeah right .
What copy of GW are you playing that you can cast 5 spells on mid chain and you only have to use e-management ( like its been said here ) every 20secs and get back 75+ energy ?.

You do realise spirits have a short cast time, right? You do realise how heroes use spirits, right? You're spirits are normally already down by the time you start calling and microing.

Also please show me where I said anything about using energy management every 20 seconds, or about 3 second kills?

Take that arguement up with the person who claimed it.

You're acting like energy is that big an issue, in the majority of skirmishes it isn't and you certainly don't suffer as badly with energy issues as you are trying to make out an AP caller does.

In any event use your energy management when you need it. You're acting like it takes the whole battle to cast it.

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1 AP lover says something , now the other differs , another one paints its own case .... ppl just make up things and brings up things when they are suitable for them lol . Every1 can play that "game", but is just that , a game , not reality on GW mechanics

Indeed. However the reality is regardless of mechanics, every scenario is different.

Different mobs bring different skills, have diffferent Health levels, different damage types, etc. So in one scenario the physical may indeed be a better option, in another it may not.

As I said before, use what's best for you depending on what you are facing. It's really that simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

For gods sake!

Never take the lords name in vein.

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So traversc suggested that he can wand the enemies with splinter weapon and so do 160 damage in 1.75 secs. I'm sorry but I don't know exactly how to read those numbers except in the way I did.

Ok.

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And again, AP 5en, EVAS 10e, YMLA 10e, FH 10e, SW 5e. 40 energy. 16 AP gives 21 energy back.

Spirit Siphon.

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My questions are - can you keep 2-3 secs kills without microing discord?

It's possible, but not consistent.

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Do you have enough energy, casting all or most of those skills?

Yes, use a high enegy set if you find your energy manegemnt is failing.

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If you don't cast all those skills isn't your killing power diminishing?

Depends on the scenario.

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If you cast energy management, aren't those kills getting slowed down?

Use it when you use a shout or when switching targets. The time difference is minimal and really doesn't make as much difference as people seem to think it does.

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All this discussion is based on the fact that AP callers are more efficient cause they, a) fulfil both discord requirements; b) kill in 2-3 seconds and, c) have 4 slots left for support.

I would say the team kills in 2-3 seconds but whatever rocks your boat.

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My point is that an Assassin AP caller and the other physicals AP caller, won't be able to keep that pace unless they micro, and even then energy might become a problem. Forget about the support skills without messing up with either the 2-3 secs kill and/or the energy.

My point is that because that efficiency will disappear after the first or second target (and might not be as fast as if there are multiple healers in the enemy mob or other counters) a physical assassin (and all the others physicals) won't lose ground to the AP caller.

I disagree. I don't normally have problems facing multiple healers, the only time I really find them a pain is the Doylaks in groups of 4 in the southern Shiverpeaks, but I used a more specific build to take them down. Healer bosses can be a pain if you don't co-ordinate right but they're still very much doable.

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Also many things won't happen if you don't get a kill. Forget about kd locks if you don't kill a target to recharge your kills. Forget about doing those 250 damage if you don't drop your target to <50% health first.

You're right, but I find this a rare occurence personally and find the ability to quickly spike most targets down in a mob worth the trade off, more so now I've learned to adapt the way I play to combat the counters against me.

Tenebrae · Jul 11, 2009, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

You're acting like energy is that big an issue, in the majority of skirmishes it isn't and you certainly don't suffer as badly with energy issues as you are trying to make out an AP caller does.

Do you realise that you are talking about an A/Rt or a Rt/A and with ANY other prof except N/A ( soul reaping ofc ) Spirit Siphon doesnt count ? and no , dont tell me that there are others e-management.
If you lower your chain a bloody lots of things can happen but AP gives back 17 energy ( only 21 on a primary assassin ) and Chains like that ( AP , 2 shouts , EVA = 35 ) cant be mantained EVEN on while killing the same mob and achieve straight 3-5 sec kills, anything against that fact is BS.

Dont take all my sentences like were pointing at you just because i quoted you about something , its a huge mistake

. Also , im doing Orr HM for a friend tomorrow as a R/A AP caller , any suggestions for those 4 opt slots ?.

Improvavel · Jul 11, 2009, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Use it when you use a shout or when switching targets. The time difference is minimal and really doesn't make as much difference as people seem to think it does.

If you are killing in 2-3 secs, using even a 1/4 second skill/spell adds a full sec to the chain due to the .75 sec after cast.

For example casting AP .75s cast time, then .75s after cast, then 1s cast for assassin. The assassin is out there only 2.5s after.

If the kill happens in 2-3s it seems pretty pointless to cast the assassin.

Unreal Havoc · Jul 11, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Do you realise that you are talking about an A/Rt or a Rt/A and with ANY other prof except N/A ( soul reaping ofc ) Spirit Siphon doesnt count ? and no , dont tell me that there are others e-management.

I realise this is in regards strictly to Rt/A or A/Rt (that was why I mentioned it in regards to using Splinter Weapon on the same bar as support).

There is different energy management options available on some other proffessions though. If you're an Assassin you have the freedom of switching it up a little in this respect.

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If you lower your chain a bloody lots of things can happen but AP gives back 17 energy ( only 21 on a primary assassin ) and Chains like that ( AP , 2 shouts , EVA = 35 ) cant be mantained EVEN on while killing the same mob and achieve straight 3-5 sec kills, anything against that fact is BS.

If you are constantly using the full chain without any form of energy manegement at all, then I agree with you if you are not a Necromancer primary. However as highlighted before by another user, you won't need the full chain all the time as you come to the last few targets because they're normally depleted enough to use AP+(in some cases maybe YMLaD aswell) Finish Him.

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Dont take all my sentences like were pointing at you just because i quoted you about something , its a huge mistake

. Also , im doing Orr HM for a friend tomorrow as a R/A AP caller , any suggestions for those 4 opt slots ?.

Ok, noted.

As for SoO have fun there, isn't it full of undead mainly? (ie: no minions to fuel necromancer energy management, healing from Dwaynas Sorrow, and bodyblock?). I'm interested as to what setup you intend to use there, or are you using someting ourside of Discordway?

Can't say I've ever used a Ranger AP caller so I can't help you there to be quite honest. You'ld probably be better off with Asuran Scan+Crippling Shot (or some other skill that causes a condition to undead) for calling if you're really going to go with it and free up your secondary for stuff that can be more beneficial, more so because I don't think expertise affects spells and shouts.

Unreal Havoc · Jul 11, 2009, 01:28 PM // 13:28

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If you are killing in 2-3 secs, using even a 1/4 second skill/spell adds a full sec to the chain due to the .75 sec after cast.

For example casting AP .75s cast time, then .75s after cast, then 1s cast for assassin. The assassin is out there only 2.5s after.

If the kill happens in 2-3s it seems pretty pointless to cast the assassin.

How is the cast speed of EVAS, or targets time of death, relevant to when you cast your energy management skills?

Quote:

Originally posted by Improvavel
If you cast energy management, aren't those kills getting slowed down?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc
Use it when you use a shout or when switching targets. The time difference is minimal and really doesn't make as much difference as people seem to think it does.

AtomicMew · Jul 11, 2009, 11:56 PM // 23:56

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So not only does the A/RT has 16 deadly arts, it also has 16 channelling magic?!?!?!?

I though max channelling an assassin could use was 12. You mean 123 if you hit 1 guy with 3 targets adjacent, right?

I will have to say that if a death blossom hits a clump of 4 guys adjacent, at daggers 14 it will deal 86 armor ignoring damage (from the skill only) times 4, for a 344 total armor ignoring damage.

You seem to completely misunderstand how Splinter Weapon works. Splinter at 12 channeling does 41 AoE damage 4 time to 3 targets. Using your set up example, with 4 targets around (which is obviously biased towards DB anyway), SW will do 3*4*41 damage, for a total of 492 damage. Obviously, superior to death blossom.

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So traversc suggested that he can wand the enemies with splinter weapon and so do 160 damage in 1.75 secs. I'm sorry but I don't know exactly how to read those numbers except in the way I did.

No I did not state anything about wanding. Please stop putting words in my mouth. (This isn't the first time you have done it.)

I simply stated that you can ADD 160 damage in 1.75 seconds. Put it on one of your hench, of course, not yourself. It does not matter if the damage is delayed. Splinter lasts 20 seconds, so the damage will be done eventually. Splinter is also endlessly stackable - throw it on a different hench.

Considering you do not understand game mechanics (Splinter has been a PvE staple since factions), I ask you to defer judgment on the strength of an AP caller. It is clear that you do not understand enough about PvE.

By arguing blindly, you misunderstand how to use an AP caller, thinking it is just to fast apply fast hex/condition, requiring manual discord to do damage. It is the otherway around - AP caller is the highest damage on a discord team. You also misunderstood my argument about Splinter Weapon, because you did not understand how the skill works.

Please, LISTEN to what Unreal and I are saying, rather than just trying to come up with an argument to throw back.

Improvavel · Jul 12, 2009, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You seem to completely misunderstand how Splinter Weapon works. Splinter at 12 channeling does 41 AoE damage 4 time to 3 targets. Using your set up example, with 4 targets around (which is obviously biased towards DB anyway), SW will do 3*4*41 damage, for a total of 492 damage. Obviously, superior to death blossom.

No, you seem to be the one misunderstanding.

Splinter needs 3 adjacent enemies to your target to deal full damage, so you need 4 enemies. Death blossom will hit the same 4 targets.

No, Splinters at 12 doesn't do 41 AoE damage 4 times to 3 targets. It deals 41 damage up to 3 targets up to 4 times.

Big difference and no 160 AoE damage in a single packet.

More retard comments about my understanding of the game, when you don't even know you need 4 targets minimum to trigger the 3 AoE hits of splinter, and that Death Blossom will hit both 4 of those targets? And that it will hit 5 or 6 or as many as fit around? And of course death blossom will always deal damage, splinter might or might not.

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No I did not state anything about wanding. Please stop putting words in my mouth. (This isn't the first time you have done it.)

I simply stated that you can ADD 160 damage in 1.75 seconds. Put it on one of your hench, of course, not yourself. It does not matter if the damage is delayed. Splinter lasts 20 seconds, so the damage will be done eventually. Splinter is also endlessly stackable - throw it on a different hench.

So you cast it on a hench. Unless it is a paragon or a sword/axe guy, again the time to deal the damage will be over 1.75 seconds and not 160 damage as you insist.

"Endlessly stackable"... So now you just stopped casting all your other skills to spam splinter or are you adding another skill to your chain?

Lets see AP+YMLAS+EVAS+FH+SW = 5+10+10+10+5= 40e .75s+.75s+1+.75s+1s= 4.25s between casting time and aftercast.

Lets see an assassin AP caller- 4 pips, 16 deadly arts. 40e every 4.25 secs. 21 gained from AP + a bit over 5 from natural regen, lets call it 6. 27 energy gained vs 40 lost. That is 13 lost every 4.25 secs.

That is ignoring any other hexes you might or might have not to cast.

But now lets look at A DERVISH AP CALLER.

First, of course, the D AP CALLER can't slot ritualist skills nor have 16 deadly arts.

The D AP caller will use 35e and get back 17 with a successful trigger of AP.

It depends on fast he gets a kill of course, but if he is doing his chain in 2s (which means get a dast casting somewhere, but whatever, who cares about the little details, 40 more damage on a trigger of splinter here, 1s less casting time there) he will be losing 18 energy every 2s. Being nice we will admit that he gets the 4e from regen. Again 14 energy lost every 3s.

Of course I'll be countered with arguments like "You don't need to do a full chain all the times", "You can use emag", "You can cast support stuff too", etc. Of course, when I say that all these little things add time for a physical do damage or for the discord heroes cast hexes and conditions, I'll be countered that the assassin or dervish has to walk from to target to target, even though when they talk about splinters weapon they admit a nice clump of 4 targets sitting there, but that will never happen when you are playing a melee, adn etc etc.

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Considering you do not understand game mechanics (Splinter has been a PvE staple since factions), I ask you to defer judgment on the strength of an AP caller. It is clear that you do not understand enough about PvE.

By arguing blindly, you misunderstand how to use an AP caller, thinking it is just to fast apply fast hex/condition, requiring manual discord to do damage. It is the otherway around - AP caller is the highest damage on a discord team.

Sigh... High damage is pretty but if done in a great time interval, it is the same as loads of small damage done in the same interval.

Thing is, an AP caller (and especially physical ones) is reliant on AP.

Without AP, most of it is damage will be diminish, as its main damage skills will be on 10s or more recharge. 250 damage in 2-3s is impressive as in 500 damage in 5, but if you need to wait 15 seconds to apply that amount of damage again, then it is not that great.

Additionally, a big part, if not all of it, of the energy management of the AP caller (especially physicals) comes from AP, which means fast kills or wait or devote more slots to energy management, and then the question is to cast exactly what?

If the AP caller relies on AP than it relies on kills and fast kills at that.

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You also misunderstood my argument about Splinter Weapon, because you did not understand how the skill works.

As much as you liked that to be true, it is you that don't understand how splinter or death blossom works.

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Please, LISTEN to what Unreal and I are saying, rather than just trying to come up with an argument to throw back.

Translation - "please shut up instead of showing the incoherences of our arguments".

Calista Blackblood · Jul 12, 2009, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Is there any chance of this thread getting back on topic? Remembering of course the title "Does discordway need an AP caller?" the last approx 3 pages of,I know how splinter works,no you don't,yes I do,Shut up!,you're a retard is getting really really old