Curse

Carnivorous Cupcake · Sep 10, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Guys, stop arguing. Sometimes a Superior would make sense, sometimes it wont.

For example a caster could get away with a Superior to gain a bit more damage, heal, minions or spirits. On other hand a melee or physical character would not gain much from the higher attribute investment but would surely feel the negative effect of losing 75hp.

Ofcourse, in the case of Jeyda a full superior rune set makes sense. On the MM it would mean a very high level minion wall, spirit spammers would end up with stronger, more resilient spirits. Defense they provide makes up for health loss.

Contratingly on a build like Discordway superiors won't make any sense. Averege team has additional copies of minion animates on seperate characters , the wall is already big enough for extra pair of minions not to matter. Plus that team hugely overdamages already, extra damage gain from superior would just be absolutely redundant.

So, it depends. What you can't say is that superiors are absolutely useless.

kanuks · Sep 11, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Yes, but from I read, you also play most of the time h/h which already caps any benefit of max health due to the 480 of the henchmen.

Additionally, I have the impression that you spend considerable time flagging and luring (well I do when playing with stupid hench, which happens rarely thank goodness).

Advocating superiors to kill faster isn't as compelling when that increase is spent in setting up or running back to avoid wipes - higher individual health parties have an easier time to win battles even with members down.

Of course when all your party members can use runes, there is quite a difference between a party with avg healths of 600+ vs parties with avg healths of 500.

On the other hand, henchmen are pretty much just fillers in discord parties, adding a lot less when compared to the discord necros. Hence probably makes sense to make the player and the necro trio have as much health as possible.

Additionally, if you don't have to rely on henchmen, the biggest speed buff you can get to clear (most) areas is to add a Movement Buff - fallback for example.

Using sup runes have a much inferior penalty in h/h because henchmen are pants anyway. Once you go to 2 players or more, the penalty is a lot steeper.

Well we are talking about H/H... look at the subforum this thread has been created in...

Improvavel · Sep 11, 2009, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

Well we are talking about H/H... look at the subforum this thread has been created in...

Heroes & AI.

Not H/H.

And for your information I can use 6 heroes even on my own.

Also, if the reason to justify the use of a superior rune is "deal more damage and don't die much" a very easy counter to that argument is "I die less and still kill". Basically they are both pointless arguments.

What matters is the overall speed you complete something.

If you have a build that can kill a mob of monster in 20-30 secs and another build that will kill the same mobs in 1 minute and we have around 10 mobs, but then the first build spend 20 minutes walking and setting up while the slower killing build only takes 10 minutes to do the same walking and setting up, build A doesn't seem superior to build B anymore.

Superior runes to power up minions always made sense, because minions get more of everything.

The MB hero was always about providing meat shields to absorb some damage and then deal some damage when they die.

Masochisms to power discords on the other hand seems pointless.

10-12 more damage seems loads but in fact is only 2% of the health of a 600 hp mob.

Then look at Jeydra build on forge hm (good job btw Jeydra) and from what I've read on other threads is also a build Jeydra use other times. The sup air rune increase damage of lightning orb and chain lightning, but a huge amount of the damage comes from the norn shouts and EVAS.

I think I've been in more situations "ooof I escaped with 10 hp" then "If only I had 50 more damage all over my team I would have killed that mob that then wiped us".

More - higher health allows you to take higher risks.

Concluding, higher damage at expense of health, in my experience, doesn't always translate in higher clearing speed.

Tenebrae · Sep 11, 2009, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Agree , since +2 changed to -35hp instead of -50 , those +3 runes were 90% of the times pointless. Even thou on MM .... dont think 1-2 more minions with 1 more lvl are going to make a diff .

Mr Emu · Sep 11, 2009, 06:50 PM // 18:50

so it seems as though our consensus is:
If the runes strongly affect defensive skills, a +3 is valid because it won't lead to more deaths and have additional damage as a side effect?

kanuks · Sep 11, 2009, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Heroes & AI.

Not H/H.

And for your information I can use 6 heroes even on my own.

Also, if the reason to justify the use of a superior rune is "deal more damage and don't die much" a very easy counter to that argument is "I die less and still kill". Basically they are both pointless arguments.

What matters is the overall speed you complete something.

If you have a build that can kill a mob of monster in 20-30 secs and another build that will kill the same mobs in 1 minute and we have around 10 mobs, but then the first build spend 20 minutes walking and setting up while the slower killing build only takes 10 minutes to do the same walking and setting up, build A doesn't seem superior to build B anymore.

Superior runes to power up minions always made sense, because minions get more of everything.

The MB hero was always about providing meat shields to absorb some damage and then deal some damage when they die.

Masochisms to power discords on the other hand seems pointless.

10-12 more damage seems loads but in fact is only 2% of the health of a 600 hp mob.

Then look at Jeydra build on forge hm (good job btw Jeydra) and from what I've read on other threads is also a build Jeydra use other times. The sup air rune increase damage of lightning orb and chain lightning, but a huge amount of the damage comes from the norn shouts and EVAS.

I think I've been in more situations "ooof I escaped with 10 hp" then "If only I had 50 more damage all over my team I would have killed that mob that then wiped us".

More - higher health allows you to take higher risks.

Concluding, higher damage at expense of health, in my experience, doesn't always translate in higher clearing speed.

Seriously if you're too scared to use sup runes when using 6 heroes then maybe it's because that you don't aggro very well and basically leeroy into everything, which is NOT the fastest way to kill. With 6 Heroes it's so easy that you can easily afford sup runes on all heroes and tune your attributes to reach better breakpoints on all of them. That doesn't necessarily means going 16 into their main attributes, it could mean reaching better bp's in lower attribute's skills.

kanuks · Sep 11, 2009, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Emu

so it seems as though our consensus is:
If the runes strongly affect defensive skills, a +3 is valid because it won't lead to more deaths and have additional damage as a side effect?

Well basically, higher life is more secure against spikes but less efficient in longer fights, especially against balanced groups like the dwarves in Slaver's Exile or the charrs in Rragar's Menagerie.

Dazzen · Sep 11, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Agree , since +2 changed to -35hp instead of -50 , those +3 runes were 90% of the times pointless. Even thou on MM .... dont think 1-2 more minions with 1 more lvl are going to make a diff .

More minions = better meat shield = better prot.

It's shining if you can spirit pull :

Put spirits at edge of aggro bubble, pull with bow (behind spirits), then run back => mobs will aggro spirits.
Run back to MM, cast summon spirits => the mobs will move toward spirits because they aggroed. At this time, minions should move forward to meet the aggroed mobs.
Then run forward (up to minions), cast summon spirits => you've set up an extreme body blocking meat shield.

I've been using this lately and it's really powerful. Some kind of AI abuse since they'll either target Spirits or minions first with this setup.

IF you can use minions as a good meatshield = you don't take damage = your life doesn't matter.

Improvavel · Sep 11, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

Seriously if you're too scared to use sup runes when using 6 heroes then maybe it's because that you don't aggro very well and basically leeroy into everything, which is NOT the fastest way to kill. With 6 Heroes it's so easy that you can easily afford sup runes on all heroes and tune your attributes to reach better breakpoints on all of them. That doesn't necessarily means going 16 into their main attributes, it could mean reaching better bp's in lower attribute's skills.

Yes I suck and I'm too scared.

Now that we set that question aside, exactly which breakpoints are so important that u need a superior rune?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Emu

so it seems as though our consensus is:
If the runes strongly affect defensive skills, a +3 is valid because it won't lead to more deaths and have additional damage as a side effect?

Not exactly. Very few people will advocate running superior runes on monks.

In the case of Minions and spirits it does add a bit - and minions and spirits are additional targets. For some reason junk meat walls work very well on this game.

For example, it isn't just an extra level or 2 on minion - it is 1 level or 2 on a bunch of them - more levels mean higher armor, health and damage. Higher death magic even raise the number of minions you can control.

Increasing 10 damage on a spell on the other hand, isn't that impressive. Or actually it isn't because it may force you to play more carefully and because 10 damage represents 2% of the health of 600 health mob (typical lvl 26).

For example, in the case of discords necro trio, where 3 discords will hit between 260-300 damage, adding another 30-40 damage to that total at the expense of 225 health on your team doesn't seem worthwhile.

Actually on humans, if you have 2 headpieces, one +1 and another +3 to swap in case of DP, it really doesn't matter much.

Then it depends how it fits your playstyle.

If you are a careful player, choosing your engagement point, flagging all you AI very well, etc, using the sup runes can make some sense.

If you prefer to play a more relaxed game or simply sometimes take risks and decide to take on 2 mobs instead of just 1, the extra health (or armor if you choose to run armor insignias over survivor runes) will help this play style more than extra damage. Don't forget the most efficient damage still is AoE and will scale better with the number of enemies.

Generally in GW never comes to a race to see who kills each other faster - generally your defense either stands and then the only way to go down is an enemy spike (that higher health is good against) or your defense crumbles.

Occasionally there is a resource attrition war, but not very often.

kanuks · Sep 12, 2009, 12:11 AM // 00:11

What you don't seem to get is that 75 life out of 600 isn't that much either... Not to mention that everyone uses PS so having less life means taking less damage. Also, you say that 10 damage increase isn't worth it but you don't mention that it increases all damage spells, not only one. Also, whatever skills that has a duration will last longer which means less cast and therefore more energy and more time to cast something else. I personally always used a sup rune on myself and heroes and I never felt like "oh shit that spike was nasty, I should of not used sup runes!" There is so few dangerous spike in GW and the ones that are dangerous won't be prevented by having more life, they will be prevented by using interrupts or prots.

Jeydra · Sep 13, 2009, 09:58 AM // 09:58

@Improvavel - yes I spend most of my time H/H'ing, so I claim no experience over 2-man teams. That said, I don't see what's wrong with running Superiors in 2-man teams. If everyone in the party is running Superiors, then everyone has ~500 health and you won't be drawing aggro more than the next man. If your partner isn't running Superiors, then your heroes still have ~500 health, and you won't be drawing aggro more than they do ... and even if you are drawing that much aggro, so what? The monsters are there, they will be hitting someone. If you're not taking damage then your party members will be. What's the difference? Especially since you're human, which lets you prekite / switch to defensive set / micro Prot Spirit on yourself etc. I've been on higher DP than my teammates before and it's never really struck me as anything important (aggrowise - the DP of course is important).

What's more, it really doesn't take that long to set up. I've written elsewhere, things haven't changed. Executing a pull is simply flagging henchmen further away and using a Longbow. Facing powerful AoE is flagging heroes and henchmen manually apart, which takes all of 5 seconds, probably less. When DP'ed / facing really hard mobs, you execute a longpull, which is 5 seconds of setup and 20 seconds of running back and forth. You make it sound as though (real) care is necessary when playing with Superiors; that's simply not the case. Real care is necessary in hard areas, but the areas which require longpulls are few and far between, and if you're going to VQ an area like Varajar Fells or Riven Earth, you can should be able to play quite recklessly. If you think the setup makes it such that running Superiors actually slows you down, I'd appreciate something to compare with.

You're right that with the build I ran, a major part of the damage comes from EBVAS and the two Norn shouts, but Lightning Orb / Chain Lightning is still an integral part of the gameplay and very important in spiking down Flowstones / Burning Spirits / Summit healers. I realized just as much when I did Blood Washes Blood the other day and had to give up a spell for Volfen Blessing (I chose Chain Lightning, still felt hampered).

The game doesn't come down to who can kill the other first very often, but it does happen: e.g. Burning Forest in Sacnoth Valley. If you can hold against Borguus Blisterbark + his patrol of Burning Spirits indefinitely, I'd be interested in seeing how you do it (it should be possible with human teams with two Ether Prots maintaining Protective Bond on all 8 players, but I can't see anything else).

It may be possible that sometimes I wipe because my teams have -75 HP collectively, but if that happens too often I don't salvage the Superior runes off, re-equip with Minors and try again, I look critically at my teambuild and try to improve it.

@kanus - I still think the Superiors on defensive characters aren't worth it. Yes you heal more, but overhealing does no good. If someone has just taken 100 damage, healing for 120 or 130 changes nothing, and hence why not stick with Minors?

Here's what Div wrote over at the Monk subforum, I largely agree (except the Duncan part):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Div

Here's my argument on Superior vs Minor runes: Inexperienced players like to look at skills and when they see big numbers, they're happy. While it is true with damage attributes such as fire magic, what you have to realize is that most of the time, the extra few points of healing/divine doesn't really matter, since you're either going to be overhealing a target (aka bringing them to more than their maximum health), or it'll bring them to something like 80% (as opposed to 79% with a minor), the fight will end, and they'll regen to full. Having more prot works the same way (in terms of damage prevention, and the duration of the prot often doesn't matter at all since the fight is either over before it expires or the mob has already removed it by expiring. In either case, you won't feel the benefits of the superior rune, even though the numbers may look bigger. However, what you will feel is the cold floor when the elementalist or ritualist boss smacks you for 550 health (which just happened today--damn Duncan--and I was glad I had 640 health!).

@Mr. Emu - the consensus I think is that there is no consensus. Run what you want to run. If minor runes have always worked for you, then by all means, use them. What works for you is the best for you, after all.

kanuks · Sep 15, 2009, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Improvavel - yes I spend most of my time H/H'ing, so I claim no experience over 2-man teams. That said, I don't see what's wrong with running Superiors in 2-man teams. If everyone in the party is running Superiors, then everyone has ~500 health and you won't be drawing aggro more than the next man. If your partner isn't running Superiors, then your heroes still have ~500 health, and you won't be drawing aggro more than they do ... and even if you are drawing that much aggro, so what? The monsters are there, they will be hitting someone. If you're not taking damage then your party members will be. What's the difference? Especially since you're human, which lets you prekite / switch to defensive set / micro Prot Spirit on yourself etc. I've been on higher DP than my teammates before and it's never really struck me as anything important (aggrowise - the DP of course is important).

What's more, it really doesn't take that long to set up. I've written elsewhere, things haven't changed. Executing a pull is simply flagging henchmen further away and using a Longbow. Facing powerful AoE is flagging heroes and henchmen manually apart, which takes all of 5 seconds, probably less. When DP'ed / facing really hard mobs, you execute a longpull, which is 5 seconds of setup and 20 seconds of running back and forth. You make it sound as though (real) care is necessary when playing with Superiors; that's simply not the case. Real care is necessary in hard areas, but the areas which require longpulls are few and far between, and if you're going to VQ an area like Varajar Fells or Riven Earth, you can should be able to play quite recklessly. If you think the setup makes it such that running Superiors actually slows you down, I'd appreciate something to compare with.

You're right that with the build I ran, a major part of the damage comes from EBVAS and the two Norn shouts, but Lightning Orb / Chain Lightning is still an integral part of the gameplay and very important in spiking down Flowstones / Burning Spirits / Summit healers. I realized just as much when I did Blood Washes Blood the other day and had to give up a spell for Volfen Blessing (I chose Chain Lightning, still felt hampered).

The game doesn't come down to who can kill the other first very often, but it does happen: e.g. Burning Forest in Sacnoth Valley. If you can hold against Borguus Blisterbark + his patrol of Burning Spirits indefinitely, I'd be interested in seeing how you do it (it should be possible with human teams with two Ether Prots maintaining Protective Bond on all 8 players, but I can't see anything else).

It may be possible that sometimes I wipe because my teams have -75 HP collectively, but if that happens too often I don't salvage the Superior runes off, re-equip with Minors and try again, I look critically at my teambuild and try to improve it.

@kanus - I still think the Superiors on defensive characters aren't worth it. Yes you heal more, but overhealing does no good. If someone has just taken 100 damage, healing for 120 or 130 changes nothing, and hence why not stick with Minors?

Here's what Div wrote over at the Monk subforum, I largely agree (except the Duncan part):

@Mr. Emu - the consensus I think is that there is no consensus. Run what you want to run. If minor runes have always worked for you, then by all means, use them. What works for you is the best for you, after all.

Well first, what do you consider defensive character in this case? I barely ever use defensive heroes. I usually use ritualists or necros with some defensive skills but the superiors are used on an offensive attribute...

But let's take a look at those "defensive characters" :

Woh healer or Woh/Prot hybrid : Using a sup won't overheal since the bonus apply only when the target is under 50% which is roughly 250 health which is about the same amount as a 16 healing prayers woh heal. That's actually a point that favor the usage of the sup rune.

ER proter (Heroes can run it pretty fine) : This build needs a sup energy storage when used on a Hero since they can't use glyph of swiftness properly so you want that ER to last as long as you want for the times he cast it without the glyph (which is about half the time).

Aside from these 2 defensive builds, I don't see other builds that could be useful on heroes.

Edit : The only defensive Hero bar that doesn't really get any benefit from a superior is an interrupt mesmer with tease, cry of frustration and more interrupts. Very useful in Frostmaw's dungeon.

Improvavel · Sep 16, 2009, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you think the setup makes it such that running Superiors actually slows you down, I'd appreciate something to compare with.

And does it make you finish it faster?

Quote:

The game doesn't come down to who can kill the other first very often, but it does happen: e.g. Burning Forest in Sacnoth Valley. If you can hold against Borguus Blisterbark + his patrol of Burning Spirits indefinitely, I'd be interested in seeing how you do it (it should be possible with human teams with two Ether Prots maintaining Protective Bond on all 8 players, but I can't see anything else).

Borguus and his bunch is either "party made a mistake like aggroing his patrol while fighting someone else and they spike a number of the team or they die" - one way or the other the fight ends fast. Actually it's a case where more health and/or armor will help.

The only fights that drag out, in my experience, are against mobs that have competent healers and protection and/or can rez. There the most important aspect seems to be resource management and the ability to spike an enemy.

Quote:

It may be possible that sometimes I wipe because my teams have -75 HP collectively, but if that happens too often I don't salvage the Superior runes off, re-equip with Minors and try again, I look critically at my teambuild and try to improve it.

It is a shame we can't use 8 heroes. I think if you could design the 8 builds of your team you would see that extra damage of a superior rune isn't worth over +75 hp or higher armor at the same plateau of health.

But as I said before, in a h/h team, where generally henchmen contribute in the offence is quite low, superiors make more sense for the damage dealers, since they are dealing a larger fraction of the damage compared to 2p +6 heroes or higher number of players teams.

Additionally, once a hero or an henchmen starts to get DP it is quite easy for it to get more and more. Again, on h/h this isn't as noticeable due to the fact higher health heroes only mean the AI will focus more and more on henchmen.

So I'm saying that in some h/h teams superior might make sense.

In Discords I don't think so, even though I don't see any problems on running superior on the MB, due to the nature minions scale. On the other hand if the minions are lower level doesn't make that huge of a difference.

I don't think it is worthwhile because the relevant damage skill the discord team has is discord. Basically the team can be reduced to the player and the 3 necros and still kill.

A discord team is basically a defensive team with spike kills, designed to survive to a huge amount of pressure. Increasing the health of the necro trio and of the player (that will generally deal much more damage than any henchmen, being a caller or otherwise) to keep the spike intact is the number 1 priority.

Jeydra · Sep 17, 2009, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

And does it make you finish it faster?

If you don't think so, I'd appreciate something to compare with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Borguus and his bunch is either "party made a mistake like aggroing his patrol while fighting someone else and they spike a number of the team or they die" - one way or the other the fight ends fast. Actually it's a case where more health and/or armor will help.

Borguus and his buddies is an example of "kill them before they kill you", because against them you will die eventually.

Extra armor has nothing to do with whether or not you run the Superior rune.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

It is a shame we can't use 8 heroes. I think if you could design the 8 builds of your team you would see that extra damage of a superior rune isn't worth over +75 hp or higher armor at the same plateau of health.

But as I said before, in a h/h team, where generally henchmen contribute in the offence is quite low, superiors make more sense for the damage dealers, since they are dealing a larger fraction of the damage compared to 2p +6 heroes or higher number of players teams.

Additionally, once a hero or an henchmen starts to get DP it is quite easy for it to get more and more. Again, on h/h this isn't as noticeable due to the fact higher health heroes only mean the AI will focus more and more on henchmen.

I doubt it, since I have used 7 heroes before and didn't feel anything.

If you H/H and use Superiors to add more damage to your team, why can't you do the same when you 2-man? What's the difference? Sure with 2-man you got your ally's heroes to help you deal damage with so you can get away with less damage on your side, but it's still less damage.

So what if the AI focuses on henchmen instead of heroes? Why does that matter? Why should I want the AI to do that? I've had the AI focus on me before, and I didn't feel anything in particular.

@kanuks - it's a good point, I didn't think of it that way. Come to think of it the only heroes I currently have not equipped with Superiors are my three Monks, who these days are pretty much locked into Smiting. Which might make them better off with Superior Smiting runes, but then I can't be bothered salvaging and re-equipping every time I switch Monks to HB or whatever (rare though, admittedly).

I still think on a pure Monk-based healer (HB, WoH, whatever) you don't want the Superior, don't understand your argument though.

Improvavel · Sep 19, 2009, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you don't think so, I'd appreciate something to compare with.

That is quite easy - run discord with sups and without them. Do a few areas and see if there is any significant difference in speed.

Quote:

Borguus and his buddies is an example of "kill them before they kill you", because against them you will die eventually.

If I keep them shut down, I wont.

Quote:

Extra armor has nothing to do with whether or not you run the Superior rune.

If I use a sup rune I'll have less life compared to someone without it. Now lets say you a want a health of around 500~525. You will have to use + health runes or weapons. Someone else can use some of those slots for +armor.

Quote:

I doubt it, since I have used 7 heroes before and didn't feel anything.

If you H/H and use Superiors to add more damage to your team, why can't you do the same when you 2-man? What's the difference? Sure with 2-man you got your ally's heroes to help you deal damage with so you can get away with less damage on your side, but it's still less damage.

So what if the AI focuses on henchmen instead of heroes? Why does that matter? Why should I want the AI to do that? I've had the AI focus on me before, and I didn't feel anything in particular.

Again I think its play style. I like to go in while chatting, and if I aggro 2-3 mobs by accident, well shit happens and still kill them, like when yesterday on frostmaws hm, minions or my pet aggroed 2 mobs of drakes, 1 of golems and some wurm pack and well we ended with 3 standing but they were dead.

kanuks · Sep 19, 2009, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

That is quite easy - run discord with sups and without them. Do a few areas and see if there is any significant difference in speed.

If I keep them shut down, I wont.

If I use a sup rune I'll have less life compared to someone without it. Now lets say you a want a health of around 500~525. You will have to use + health runes or weapons. Someone else can use some of those slots for +armor.

Again I think its play style. I like to go in while chatting, and if I aggro 2-3 mobs by accident, well shit happens and still kill them, like when yesterday on frostmaws hm, minions or my pet aggroed 2 mobs of drakes, 1 of golems and some wurm pack and well we ended with 3 standing but they were dead.

How do you keep Blitzer and his group shut down? I'm just curious because I usually beat him by wiping once and finishing him after.

Also, if you aggro'd 2 groups of drakes in frostmaw then that means you took a weird and long path because the fastest path doesn't involves any drakes (i'm not counting level 1 because groups have only 3 drakes and you can basically aggro everything and not wipe using superiors).

Improvavel · Sep 20, 2009, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

How do you keep Blitzer and his group shut down? I'm just curious because I usually beat him by wiping once and finishing him after.

Depends on setup.GDW on pets/AoE physicals like rangers, YMLAD, EVAS, Earth shaker warrior knocking them down, Discord necro with wards and maelstrom, Daze from BHA or Stunning strike and then epidemic, cry of frustration on a para or 2, etc. I don't keep them shut indefinitely because after a few secs they are death. The only instances I get wiped vs him is if my party is already taking in 3-4 or so flowstone elementals (again, I generally don't play h/h but 2p+6h).

Quote:

Also, if you aggro'd 2 groups of drakes in frostmaw then that means you took a weird and long path because the fastest path doesn't involves any drakes (i'm not counting level 1 because groups have only 3 drakes and you can basically aggro everything and not wipe using superiors).

lvl 2 after the 2nd beacon (counting the starting one), you have that door opening and you can see a patrol of drakes and ice golems. While we were fighting the drakes some minions (or my pet) got locked on the golems that were on the right and somehow aggroed nearby drakes that are on the right path. So it became a nice chaotic fight between some 10-12 drakes, 6 or so golems + wurms

I guess I could have pulled (sometimes I do), but the good of PvE is that you can be lazy and it is also quite fun being in a big chaotic fight.

kanuks · Sep 21, 2009, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Depends on setup.GDW on pets/AoE physicals like rangers, YMLAD, EVAS, Earth shaker warrior knocking them down, Discord necro with wards and maelstrom, Daze from BHA or Stunning strike and then epidemic, cry of frustration on a para or 2, etc. I don't keep them shut indefinitely because after a few secs they are death. The only instances I get wiped vs him is if my party is already taking in 3-4 or so flowstone elementals (again, I generally don't play h/h but 2p+6h).

lvl 2 after the 2nd beacon (counting the starting one), you have that door opening and you can see a patrol of drakes and ice golems. While we were fighting the drakes some minions (or my pet) got locked on the golems that were on the right and somehow aggroed nearby drakes that are on the right path. So it became a nice chaotic fight between some 10-12 drakes, 6 or so golems + wurms

I guess I could have pulled (sometimes I do), but the good of PvE is that you can be lazy and it is also quite fun being in a big chaotic fight.

Yeah I guess that 2 players 6 heroes is very different than 1 player 3 heroes and 4 henchies. 6 PVE skills rocks too. I don't think that the strategy you mentionned would work against Blitz with H/H though, unless you dedicate all 3 heroes to shutdown that one group.

Cobalt · Sep 27, 2009, 08:27 PM // 20:27

If your MM is at 16 death you can always switch out jagged bones for flesh golem and get a level 29 uber tank with masochism.