Curse

Tenebrae · Aug 08, 2009, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Masochism actually decreases discord overall performance because eventually, heroes have to waste energy & cast time on healing up maso sac. time & energy they could use better by casting discord or anything else. Self-pressue is not worth it.

+2 DM is not really that hot anyway, if it does not involve minions in minion master context (discord heroes are bombers, not point in making higher level more durable bombs, and since all other minion using heroes are bombers too, it should not appear on their bars either.) +2 is pretty weak akin to awaken blood badness.

QFT , not worth the pain. That skill should be reverted ...

Jeydra · Aug 09, 2009, 03:24 AM // 03:24

I think it's stupid to say that +2 Death Magic isn't too hot. The Superior Death Magic rune gives +2 Death Magic, Aura of the Lich gives +1 Death Magic and now Masochism gives +2 Death Magic. Is +5 Death Magic "not too hot"? Even if it isn't, how about -5 Death Magic, is that "not too hot"? If it isn't, would 9 Death Magic be viable?

Can healers cope with 3% health sac of 500 max health every 2 seconds? They should be able to. What else is there to run, Putrid Bile or Signet of Lost Souls? Are those essential?

I'll run Masochism. The only problem with it is that heroes don't refresh it before it expires, the same way they do with Aura of the Lich. Not good, I hope this can be fixed.

Cathode_Reborn · Aug 09, 2009, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

What else is there to run, Putrid Bile or Signet of Lost Souls? Are those essential?

I hope you don't restrict your MM to DM/SR skills only

Gigashadow · Aug 09, 2009, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I think it's stupid to say that +2 Death Magic isn't too hot. The Superior Death Magic rune gives +2 Death Magic, Aura of the Lich gives +1 Death Magic and now Masochism gives +2 Death Magic. Is +5 Death Magic "not too hot"? Even if it isn't, how about -5 Death Magic, is that "not too hot"? If it isn't, would 9 Death Magic be viable?

+5 death magic isn't free, it has an opportunity cost, in this case -75 health, picking a particular elite instead of a more useful one, and putting another specific skill on your bar (which has costs, sacrifice, etc.) instead of some other one. Going down to 9 death magic, on the other hand, doesn't give you another elite, an extra skill slot, or give you more health, and there isn't much else to do with the attribute points you would get back, so that is why 14 death magic is a pretty convenient point to leave it at. I sometimes go down to 12 death magic on a minion bomber, depending on what else I'm trying to stick on the bar.

Minion level isn't that important for minion bombers, minions from Animate Bone Minions are so low level that they do little damage from attacks, and you don't care how durable they are, you really care about the damage of one skill, Death Nova. If you are instead being a minion master, then I could see going the whole +5 death magic route, as you then care about the multi-dimensional scaling of damage/hp/crit%/level difference.

Paul Dawg · Aug 09, 2009, 07:31 AM // 07:31

+2 death magic is worth an extra 10 damage per death nova and an extra 11 damage per discord. Not meaningless, but not stunning either.

I'm kinda thinking I want the heroes to spam discord, not other skills that are supposed to buff discord. I'm with zwei2stein.

I don't think it beats putrid bile, by the way. Yes, putrid bile has an annoying 12-second recharge, but in those 12 seconds, it does 70-ish AoE damage. In the same twelve seconds, you're going to get in a maximum of six discords (and surely less than that in reality); for those six discords, masochism will give you a total of 66 bonus damage--and it's single-target damage.

Pocketmancer · Aug 09, 2009, 04:22 PM // 16:22

I don't understand why you would ever want to give up a skill slot on your bar just to get 2 more ranks in Death Magic and Soul Reaping. Especially considering Discord Way already kills at a significant speed already, and especially when heroes don't really care about how much health they sacrifice either.

Trader of Secrets · Aug 09, 2009, 07:50 PM // 19:50

+2 for death/soul reap would increase speed and give more energy.

Pocketmancer · Aug 09, 2009, 08:39 PM // 20:39

My question was whether or not it's worth it just to give up a perfectly good skill slot just for +2 in death and soul reaping. And I think it wouldn't make a big enough impact. Considering necro heroes are generally at max energy all the time, extra soul reaping doesn't matter much at all. Extra death doesn't make Discordway kill faster either. Makes some meatier minions, but the purpose of the minions in modern strategies is to die and trigger death nova. Meatier minions becomes counterproductive to that. 11 or so extra damage on Discord doesn't matter much when Discordway tends to overkill a single target anyway, even without the +2 death.

I would rather use the slot for something else that provides better utility.

Life Bringing · Aug 09, 2009, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

My question was whether or not it's worth it just to give up a perfectly good skill slot just for +2 in death and soul reaping. And I think it wouldn't make a big enough impact. Considering necro heroes are generally at max energy all the time, extra soul reaping doesn't matter much at all. Extra death doesn't make Discordway kill faster either. Makes some meatier minions, but the purpose of the minions in modern strategies is to die and trigger death nova. Meatier minions becomes counterproductive to that. 11 or so extra damage on Discord doesn't matter much when Discordway tends to overkill a single target anyway, even without the +2 death.

I would rather use the slot for something else that provides better utility.

In 15 seconds, lets say you get 30 energy. In that fifteen seconds you're going to cast discord at least 4 times, and some random utility such as PwK, Life, Putrid, animate, WoW, etc. My heroes usually hover around 10 energy in battle, and the little bit fo extra SR helps. You mention not having the skill slots, but tbh, it can sometimes be hard to figure out how to fill up all the slots anyways.You also says discord overkills, but really it doesnt. Discord gets them down to around 50% so you can blow them up with EVAS and finish him. That extra 30 damage or so ensures that the foe gets under 50%. Then you have 10 extra damage on Death nova, which is triggered 10 fold, making it 100 extra damage. Sure, at first glance, the +10 damage doesn't really seem like much, but it stacks up.

Pocketmancer · Aug 10, 2009, 12:34 AM // 00:34

What I mean to say is, is it really worth it to waste a skill slot just to boost stats by 2 points for each of those stats. Also, I still don't understand how you hover around 10 energy throughout battle, especially since I monitor my heroes all the time with their windows open. They're almost always at max with around 8+1 Soul Reaping spec'd. I'm pretty sure our bars don't differ much considering it's pretty obvious how to set up a necro discord time with some MM and the good support skills here and there. Oh well. Each to their own play style I guess.

Life Bringing · Aug 10, 2009, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

What I mean to say is, is it really worth it to waste a skill slot just to boost stats by 2 points for each of those stats. Also, I still don't understand how you hover around 10 energy throughout battle, especially since I monitor my heroes all the time with their windows open. They're almost always at max with around 8+1 Soul Reaping spec'd. I'm pretty sure our bars don't differ much considering it's pretty obvious how to set up a necro discord time with some MM and the good support skills here and there. Oh well. Each to their own play style I guess.

I'd have to check the exact energy levels, but ti probably has to do with the fact that i micro discord on half of my spikes, meaning they cancel whatever skill they were in the middle of. That, plus PwK on two necros and an MM bar thats probably too energy intensive, and you don't have max energy =\

Jeydra · Aug 10, 2009, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

+5 death magic isn't free, it has an opportunity cost, in this case -75 health, picking a particular elite instead of a more useful one, and putting another specific skill on your bar (which has costs, sacrifice, etc.) instead of some other one. Going down to 9 death magic, on the other hand, doesn't give you another elite, an extra skill slot, or give you more health, and there isn't much else to do with the attribute points you would get back, so that is why 14 death magic is a pretty convenient point to leave it at. I sometimes go down to 12 death magic on a minion bomber, depending on what else I'm trying to stick on the bar.

Minion level isn't that important for minion bombers, minions from Animate Bone Minions are so low level that they do little damage from attacks, and you don't care how durable they are, you really care about the damage of one skill, Death Nova. If you are instead being a minion master, then I could see going the whole +5 death magic route, as you then care about the multi-dimensional scaling of damage/hp/crit%/level difference.

So you're saying it is possible to make a Me/N minion bomber using Fast Casting for faster minions and Inspiration Magic for energy superior to Necro primary? Attribute spread would be something like 12 Death Magic, 10 Inspiration, 8 Fast Casting.

Actually, considering the odds, surely the difference between 11 Death Magic and 12 Death Magic isn't too hot. It must be possible to make a Me/N minion Bomber with 11 Death Magic, 10 Inspiration and 10 Fast Casting! And come to think of it, surely the difference between 11 Death Magic and 10 Death Magic isn't too hot either. We could go 12 Inspiration, 8 Fast Casting and 10 Death Magic. That would be interesting. Want to give it a try?

I'll say I think the difference matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I don't think it beats putrid bile, by the way. Yes, putrid bile has an annoying 12-second recharge, but in those 12 seconds, it does 70-ish AoE damage. In the same twelve seconds, you're going to get in a maximum of six discords (and surely less than that in reality); for those six discords, masochism will give you a total of 66 bonus damage--and it's single-target damage.

It's a good argument but also consider:

1. +2 Death Magic affects other skills as well, e.g. Blood of the Master, Death Nova;
2. More minions, and tankier. Some people will argue that minions are there to blow up, but against tougher mobs you need the minions to stay alive as long as possible;
3. Less upkeep (5e / 34s + 20% as opposed to 10e / 12s);
4. Your other hero(es) might have Putrid Bile already;
5. +2 Soul Reaping gives you more energy, possibly allowing you to drop Signet of Lost Souls.

What bar does your MM run?

Paul Dawg · Aug 10, 2009, 03:27 PM // 15:27

If the new masochism has a role to play, it's on the MM. There I can see the point (because frankly the added damage to death nova might outweigh the added damage to discord, especially with more minions). On the other guys, the only purpose would be to add 11 points to discord damage.

Gigashadow · Aug 10, 2009, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

So you're saying it is possible to make a Me/N minion bomber using Fast Casting for faster minions and Inspiration Magic for energy superior to Necro primary? Attribute spread would be something like 12 Death Magic, 10 Inspiration, 8 Fast Casting.

Actually, considering the odds, surely the difference between 11 Death Magic and 12 Death Magic isn't too hot. It must be possible to make a Me/N minion Bomber with 11 Death Magic, 10 Inspiration and 10 Fast Casting! And come to think of it, surely the difference between 11 Death Magic and 10 Death Magic isn't too hot either. We could go 12 Inspiration, 8 Fast Casting and 10 Death Magic. That would be interesting. Want to give it a try?

Err, what? I didn't say any such thing. You don't use mesmer primaries for minion masters because they don't have soul reaping, which at 9 soul reaping, is better than what you are going to get out of inspiration, due to it being more consistent, and not taking up valuable skill slots (such as your elite). You also lose the ability to put /Mo skills such as prots, empathic and other things on that guy. Bloodstained insignia on a necro gets you most of the benefits of fast casting without spending any attribute points.

But 14 vs 12 death magic? Still a non-issue on a bomber. Why on earth would you bring 10 death magic instead of 12 on that guy when you don't gain any benefit from doing it; a bit more fast casting, slightly more inspiration, who would make that tradeoff? The tradeoff needs to actually be worthwhile. From your mesmer example with attribute points I think you are stuck on looking at things as simply choosing X death magic vs X+2 death magic with all other things being equal, when that is not the correct comparison. It is X death magic + {spend a skill slot on an activated ability to make your death magic +2} vs X death magic.

Awex Mafyews · Aug 10, 2009, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I never run SoLS on any of my heroes.
I am not saying to run Maso, I am just saying you might get a free slot of out dumping SoLS. It's a perfect slot to waste it on Rip for instance.

I agree about SoLS, it is a perfect waste of a slot and yet I continue to use it purely because I can't think of anything else and.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Discordway overkills enemies anyways.

Which is basically why I run SoLS, purely because I can't think of a better skill that I don't already have on my discord bars.

KingCrab · Aug 19, 2009, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitor

Are you not considering the part where HM enemies have tons of armor ._.?

Don't the lightning spells have 25% armor penetration to help with that?

paranon · Aug 20, 2009, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I think it's stupid to say that +2 Death Magic isn't too hot. The Superior Death Magic rune gives +2 Death Magic, Aura of the Lich gives +1 Death Magic and now Masochism gives +2 Death Magic. Is +5 Death Magic "not too hot"? Even if it isn't, how about -5 Death Magic, is that "not too hot"? If it isn't, would 9 Death Magic be viable?

i think you misunderstand this post:
1. you aren't going to have aotl, this is discord.
2. The minions aren't there to deal damage, they are there solely to be meatshields, and mine do a perfectly good job of that with only 15 death magic.
3. whether or not 9 death magic is viable or not is irrelevant, nobody runs 9 DM with discord.

the facts, as i see them are:

Pros:
+2 DM/SR = +2 energy every time a creature dies (maximum +6e every 15 secons..) and +10.5 damage from discord

Cons:
uses up a skill slot
major health loss (death nova + discord spam anyone?)

If we assume that an average discord deals 100 dmg (give or take a few),and that an average discord hero has 600hp (give or take)

Each time a hero uses it they lose 4% of their maximum health.

600/100 = 6
6*4 = -24hp per discord

So all the damage the heros are dealing through discord, a quarter of it will come straight back., And that is only discord, with all the spells discord heros spam, they are gonna kill themselves seriously quickly.

so yes. masochism is "not too hot" and i won't be using it on any of my discord bars.

Jeydra · Aug 20, 2009, 11:59 AM // 11:59

@paranon -

AotL is a great skill. Only reason I'd not run it is because it conflicts with the other two Necros' Animate [insert x]. Just because it is Discordway doesn't mean you need three heroes with Discord.

Masochism is 3% health sac, not 4% (count the +2 to Soul Reaping on recast).

The minions are there to be meatshields, and higher-level minions are (obviously) better meatshields. Actually the minions are also there to deal damage, if only via exploding with Death Nova, and higher-level Death Magic is also higher-damage Death Nova.

You are looking at ~15 damage per cast from Masochism, not 24 (run the Superior zzz).

By the way if the damage you take from Masochism is so heavy, does that make Vigorous Spirit the best heal spell in the game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

But 14 vs 12 death magic? Still a non-issue on a bomber. Why on earth would you bring 10 death magic instead of 12 on that guy when you don't gain any benefit from doing it; a bit more fast casting, slightly more inspiration, who would make that tradeoff? The tradeoff needs to actually be worthwhile. From your mesmer example with attribute points I think you are stuck on looking at things as simply choosing X death magic vs X+2 death magic with all other things being equal, when that is not the correct comparison. It is X death magic + {spend a skill slot on an activated ability to make your death magic +2} vs X death magic.

Gain from Masochism - +2 Death Magic, +2 Soul Reaping, and all associated benefits. Also it is something you can cast outside battle, leaving you more time in battle to cast Death Nova.

Loss from Masochism - really only one thing, it uses up a skill slot. The health sacrifice is fairly negligible; you lose ~15 health / 2 seconds for a grand total of constant 3 degen. Not a lot.

I'll run Masochism on the MM, replacing SoLS. The N/Rt healers not so - there's simply no room on their bars, and they are a lot less affected by increased Death Magic + Soul Reaping in any case. Someday though I might give it a try, with a different attribute spread (perhaps 11 Death 12 Resto 6 Soul Reaping, which with Masochism and runes would be 17 Death 12 Resto 9 Soul Reaping).

paranon · Aug 20, 2009, 01:02 PM // 13:02

well, personally i won't be running masochism, the benefits are pretty small compared with the drawbacks imo

Killamus · Aug 20, 2009, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Masochism is 3% health sac, not 4% (count the +2 to Soul Reaping on recast).

Heroes won't re-cast an enchantment until it's already gone. Unless you want to micro it, it's 4%.

Quote:

You are looking at ~15 damage per cast from Masochism, not 24 (run the Superior zzz).

Superiors on heroes are a bad idea (Absorption/vigor are the exceptions). Lower health = bigger target = more damage = dead necro = dead party. Heroes should have second highest HP in your party, second to you. If you are dead, your heroes can't use discord properly.

Quote:

I'll run Masochism on the MM, replacing SoLS. The N/Rt healers not so - there's simply no room on their bars, and they are a lot less affected by increased Death Magic + Soul Reaping in any case. Someday though I might give it a try, with a different attribute spread (perhaps 11 Death 12 Resto 6 Soul Reaping, which with Masochism and runes would be 17 Death 12 Resto 9 Soul Reaping).

Signet of lost souls is better energy management. 8 energy every 8 seconds? That beats 6e every 15 seconds by a long shot. Only bonus is that Maso is passive, but a 1/2s cast isn't much.