Curse

Gigashadow · Jun 25, 2009, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Maybe like me you're bored of running the same old-but effective thing as you vanquish the universe, and you'd like to try something new. Here's a paragon build I've been using for a few days now.

I'll list the skills in the build first, but it does require a little explanation, and there is a useful synergy with one of your other heroes you will probably want to exploit.

12+2 Leadership
10+1 Motivation
8+1 Command

**This character does NOT attack, set it to passive. Do not give it a martial weapon, give it a (absolutely useless) caster weapon, otherwise heroes will cast splinter weapon on it.**

Song of Restoration {elite}
Ballad of Restoration
Lyric of Zeal <-- uses adrenaline
Anthem of Disruption
Anthem of Weariness
Blazing Finale
"They're on Fire!"
Signet of Aggression <-- provides adrenaline

The basic idea is burning. I have found Blazing Finale to be insanely good, and heroes are very very good about using it. As you charge in to a group of enemies, Blazing Finale will be cast on you almost immediately, even if nothing is burning yet.

The huge number of shouts/chants is here to ensure that something is ending on everyone almost constantly (plus, you may be using Save Yourselves! as well), triggering 7 full seconds of burning. The hero can and does keep up "They're On Fire" easily, which is a 33% damage reduction. This is a very strong skill, as unlike Save Yourselves!, as far as I know it affects ALL damage including +attack skill damage, damage from skills such as Visions of Regret, Shatter Hex, etc. Unlike SY! it affects you as well, an effect which I can say has been very noticeable. It of course stacks with SY as well.

You can also trigger renewed burning at will, by using an attack skill whenever Anthem of Disruption or Weariness is on you, forcing the shout to end on you. If you are paying attention, you can control the triggering of Anthem of Disruption to use it as an interrupt.

The sort-of-dependency this guy has that I was talking about earlier, was on you having a N/Rt or Rt/* with Signet of Spirits. This is because Anthem of Disruption and Weariness are two of the small number of chants that affect spirits. This means your 3 spirits will be (randomly) interrupting skills and causing weakness. Any physical henchies you brought will also benefit from these, and of course your Signet of Spirits guy will benefit from Lyric of Zeal as well.

Anthem of Disruption and Weariness may not seem like their mostly random functionality is that amazing, but those skills serve three purposes. A bit of energy management in Weariness's case, triggering burning (which happens very shortly after being applied to melee characters), and then their actual effect.

The mutual synergy between Lyric of Zeal and Signet of Aggression ensures this guy has all the energy he needs, as well as providing some to other characters with signets.

This guy provides 2 good partywide heals, and between him and a N/Rt with Life and PwK, dealing with partywide damage has not been a problem.

Note, what I outline below probably won't work for you unless you are a melee, as you can't rely on the awful hero melee AI to be in the optimal place. But after some vanquishes and quick tests in my personal builds testing ground of Grothmar Wardowns, it's working out very well and feels very strong. The longer a battle goes on, the more people the paragon will have cast Blazing Finale on; it's not uncommon to spin the camera around and look in the back lines, and see a 2-3 burning mobs chasing Mhenlo around.

I run the paragon instead of a curses necro, as I felt the curses necro spent way too much time spamming Barbs on everything, and while Barbs is a good skill (especially with minions), as is Enfeebling Blood, I didn't feel satisfied with the curses necro overall.

So right now I am running:

P/ - Leadership/Motivation/Command paragon above.
N/Rt - Sabway N/Rt with Signet of Spirits, Splinter Weapon
N/Mo - Smiter/Minion bomber, with Rip [email protected] I am addicted to Strength of Honor.

Interesting things to note; there are no hexes in the above setup, so you don't need to worry about removal or taking a shatter hex/HEV in the face. There is no aegis, prot spirit, or shield of absorption, which are all things I thought I wouldn't be able to live without in PvE, but which (so far) it turns out I actually can.

Playstyle-wise, you need to be very aggressive with this, running into a cluster of mobs first to start the pretty much permanent burning.

upier · Jun 25, 2009, 08:31 AM // 08:31

The biggest problem that I see is simply the fact that giving this guy They're on Fire!, Aggressive Refrain, a few spear skills, paired with Blazing Finale and Go For the Eyes, while actually raising his spear and putting him on attack will do a lot of really good things.
I think you are trying too hard and you put too many things onto one guy and ultimately fell flat.
If you really want to use motivation - I'd only use it if you bring more then one paragon. That way the Motivation guy can bring sweet stuff like Finale Of Restoration and the Command guy will trigger it like insane with GftE!

Gigashadow · Jun 25, 2009, 09:41 AM // 09:41

I was not impressed with using spears, which is why this guy doesn't attack, and doesn't need to waste attribute points on spear skills. Spear attacks and auto-attacks by themselves just aren't that great compared with the other utility paragons provide from their shouts, and you actually do have to spend a fair amount of time with sub-par auto-attacks to build adrenaline. If you have multiple adrenaline skills on your bar, it's even worse due to the way adrenaline works. No spear skills means none of this is an issue, nor is blocking, or line of sight, blindness, or miss hexes, and he can take some choice abilities from 3 lines, rather than requiring that you use 2 paragons to do so.

I don't think Go for the Eyes is any good at all and I don't know why people are so attached to that skill. The bonus of critting in hard mode is absolutely pitiful, as the base amount is so small to begin with. Its only real use is as energy management or triggering shout finales, but you can get that functionality from more any other number of more useful shouts or abilities.

I will point out that this isn't a theory post, I have actually been running this build, and am comparing it to the standard builds I H'H all of EoTN with.

Crassus Praetor · Jun 25, 2009, 09:56 AM // 09:56

If the paragon is attacking the same target as you, surely he would have
the same effect with Splinter Weapon that you would.

Therefore giving him a spear and letting him attack would provide
him with more adrenaline.

However, if Signet of Aggression provides enough adrenaline or you prefer
splinter always on yourself then it's not a big deal but still maybe something worth trying.

I also really dislike Ballad of Restoration... if Finale of Restoration was put in its place and GftE
on a player bar it would mean increased healing albeit single target. Still that's personal preference
but I would definitely make that switch.

Xeng Suey · Jun 25, 2009, 10:08 AM // 10:08

When i have to play with my paragon in pve (with is rare ocasions) i usually use something like this:

.3 x Paragons (with second professions acording to the mission/area we are facing)
.Order of Vampire Necro (sometimes i equip Strenght of honor in this necro if i take a dedicated frontliner in the build)
.N/A with Assasin promisse/barbs/Mark of Pain Necro/...
.In this place you can chose a suport character or even a dedicated frontliner (warrior with hundred blades or warrior endurance with scythe; wounding strike dervish or an A/D with woundig strike and critial...)
.Prot Monk
.Heal Monk

The team build is not very precise because i alway like to tweak skills in almos every char for each area/mission, but the main ideia remais there
With the correct tweaking of skills you can play almost every area in gw and mobs die rlly easy

oww, almost forgot... scattering is not a problem with this build!

have fun

upier · Jun 25, 2009, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

I will point out that this isn't a theory post, I have actually been running this build, and am comparing it to the standard builds I H'H all of EoTN with.

My guess?
The rest of your party is so strong that you don't notice this guy's subpar performance. I am guessing he could easily be replaced with other options and this would still work.

marmar256 · Jun 25, 2009, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Try another character running its just a flesh wound and that should be enough for the shout ending.

Crassus Praetor · Jun 25, 2009, 04:02 PM // 16:02

I don't see what you mean, It's just a flesh wound is single target
and if used by a hero should only be activated whilst an ally has a condition

Gigashadow · Jun 25, 2009, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

My guess?
The rest of your party is so strong that you don't notice this guy's subpar performance. I am guessing he could easily be replaced with other options and this would still work.

I have a testing grounds for builds though (vanquishing Grothmar Wardowns), so I can do a good comparison with what I was running before, which used to be a curses/prot necro in his spot. I'm familiar with the kill-time for fighting various groups, as well as what the health bars look like, and how each little fight goes, and it was interesting to see that kill time felt at least as fast, and party-wide degen was so easily handled. Really, this is just a relative comparison to the curses/prot necro I had in his slot before, so maybe a Barbs/Enfeebling Blood/Spiteful-or-Empathic/Aegis/Prot Spirit etc. necro wasn't pulling its weight, and indeed, I didn't think it was, which is why I'm trying this guy out.

I don't know what you see in the spear skills. You will hit a high armored target for about 9 damage with an auto-attack in hard mode. GfTE will make you hit for about 13 or so. The spear skills themselves are nothing to write home about. I were to give up one of his attribute lines, if anything I would making him a secondary /Mo and put smiting on him for removal+AOE damage, rather than add spear mastery. This new guy can definitely be improved, but spear skills just don't do it for me, I just don't see the appeal.

For me, steamrolling PvE is about AOE and/or armor-ignoring damage, and hard-mode 9 damage pewpew single target hits, plus some spear skills, just isn't that impressive. The meat for me is really in the other utility.

I will experiment with Crassus's suggestion of replacing Ballad of Restoration with Finale of Restoration, that sounds worthwhile. Good tip about the splinter weapon too, it's probably not so bad to give him a spear to attack with, even if I leave him at 0 mastery.

Regarding "It's a Flesh Wound!"; I did think of this a long time ago, because hey, it's a utility skill with no cast time that will trigger burning! Unfortunately it didn't work out very well, the hero didn't use it anywhere near as much as I hoped, and it just didn't justify its elite slot.

IronSheik · Jun 25, 2009, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

For me, steamrolling PvE is about AOE and/or armor-ignoring damage, and hard-mode 9 damage pewpew single target hits, plus some spear skills, just isn't that impressive. The meat for me is really in the other utility.

I'm guessing you're mainly a warrior, I didn't want to read everything to find out

But look at swords damage, and look at a spears damage.

Paragon can pull off a warriors damage at range.

upier · Jun 25, 2009, 05:51 PM // 17:51

The reason why you'd want to run a paragon is so that you get support AND damage on one and the same guy. But because he is able to do that, that also means that his damage dealing capabilities can not compare to a full on damage dealer, while his support capabilities can not compare to a full on supporter.
So if you want your paragon to just support - might as well grab an ER prot ele instead.
When it comes to spear attacks, Vicious Attack has a superb synergy with GftE. Cruel/Stunning (although both elites) - also superb options. Spear Of Lightning - nice damage! Wild Throw - ranged stance removal!
And all this on a guy that has party healing/protection capabilities!

Gigashadow · Jun 25, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

I'm guessing you're mainly a warrior, I didn't want to read everything to find out

But look at swords damage, and look at a spears damage.

Paragon can pull off a warriors damage at range.

There is no comparison, warriors win that one easily today. Warriors can spam dragon slash continually for 20 seconds straight with FGJ up, something paragons have no equivalent of. In addition, I use Strength of Honor, which doesn't work on paragons, so instead of auto-attacking for 9, I auto-attack for 29, and instead of dragon slash adding +38 damage per hit, I am effectively getting +58 damage per hit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The reason why you'd want to run a paragon is so that you get support AND damage on one and the same guy. But because he is able to do that, that also means that his damage dealing capabilities can not compare to a full on damage dealer, while his support capabilities can not compare to a full on supporter.
So if you want your paragon to just support - might as well grab an ER prot ele instead.
When it comes to spear attacks, Vicious Attack has a superb synergy with GftE. Cruel/Stunning (although both elites) - also superb options. Spear Of Lightning - nice damage! Wild Throw - ranged stance removal!
And all this on a guy that has party healing/protection capabilities!

I'm not a big fan of ER prot eles, the healer henchmen+N/Rt usually have that covered well enough. ER prot eles don't contribute anything to damage output, whereas this paragon contributes a lot with all the burning. I do consider this paragon to be a part damage dealer part support.

Vicious Attack + GfTE does indeed have great synergy, and is actually a good combo, as long as you realize that the increased critical damage of GfTE is quite small, and that the major benefits of it are really the energy management and the trigger for Vicious Attack. Those two skills together are definitely worthy of consideration, and would by my starting point if I went spears. I do have another way to get deep wound, which is Finish Him! on my warrior, but not all characters do or take Finish Him.

Stunning Strike I'm not a big fan of, as you really need a support structure in place to ensure he can get that much adrenaline quickly, that often includes a dark fury necro, and/or using up a skill slot on Aggressive Refrain (and having heroes spending time and energy curing that condition), and possibly some other adrenaline building trick skills. Personally I don't need Stunning Strike, because I can chain brawling headbutt on anything until it's dead.

Wild Throw; well, you have to hope he used it at the right time, on the right mob (i.e. he has < 7a and needs to hit someone once more to get 7a for wild throw, but can't hit the target he wants to build up adrenaline). If someone is using a block stance, he will have trouble getting the adrenaline for it in the first place. I actually have Sun and Moon slash on my warrior to get by block stances/aegis (and for several other reasons also); what happens is that I start attacking a ranger mob, I get it to 60% health, it puts up its block stance in my face, then I S&M slash and Finish Him!, which pretty much kills it, or if it doesn't, the constant burning does.

Anyway, good debate so far, I will think about Vicious Attack + GfTE replacing the existing energy management mechanisms I have, and play around with spears again. My concern is that I really want this guy to be spamming his shouts all day long (which he currently does well), and not spending a bunch of time attacking, unless the attacks really do something interesting like adding that deep wound. Currently his effectiveness is also unaffected by blind/block/miss/etc. and that would no longer be true. If I take out the motivation line, I may not have enough healing/defense in the overall build any more (as, after all, I don't have Enfeebling Blood/Aegis/etc. in the setup; this character is replacing the necro hero who brought those defensive skills).

upier · Jun 25, 2009, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Just something else to consider - these guys are what I run on my paragon:

And when I am doing VQing, I add one monk hench, and he is able to keep us alive. So I fully understand not wanting to add the ER prot, because it would be an overkill. But this just further strengthens my opinion that using your paragon for just support is a waste. If the ER prot guy isn't needed - that means your party already is really strong defensively. So, I'd seriously suggest putting some of the paragons defence into offence.

(Of course the above build isn't optimized. I just needed something strong to get me my survivor. It just goes to show what nice defence you are able to achieve while not having to give up on offence.)

AtomicMew · Jun 25, 2009, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

I'm guessing you're mainly a warrior, I didn't want to read everything to find out

But look at swords damage, and look at a spears damage.

Paragon can pull off a warriors damage at range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GigaShadow

For me, steamrolling PvE is about AOE and/or armor-ignoring damage, and hard-mode 9 damage pewpew single target hits, plus some spear skills, just isn't that impressive. The meat for me is really in the other utility.

Both of you are wrong :<

Shiek, base damage is crap, period. Sword or spear, it doesn't matter.

Giga, spears are not meant to do damage on their own. They are basically a vector for damage buffs. On my necro, I play a MoP caller, and with MoP alone, spear auto-attack is basically doing AoE 40 DPS.

[Soldier's Fury][Blazing Finale][They're on Fire][Go For the Eyes][Stand Your Ground][Fall Back][Bladeturn Refrain][We Shall Return]

I also combo that with barbs, and an OotV/healer in Nightfall and the damage gets pretty insane.

For a warrior, I doubt a spear hero will be as useful as other possibilities, mainly because you don't have a MoP caller available. I'm also guessing as melee, you probably rely more on attack skill damage and SoH, which won't affect spear damage (rather than barbs/MoP).

The Riven · Jun 25, 2009, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

(Of course the above build isn't optimized. I just needed something strong to get me my survivor. It just goes to show what nice defence you are able to achieve while not having to give up on offence.)

Forgive me if im being thick but by this i take it your posting NM builds?

In NM you can basicly run any bar u like, pin heros and go afk, the heros will do all the work and your survivor is safe.

In HM i would suggest an OOtV hero, whatever else ya fancy, added adren, a few minions, basicly your free to chose the next 7 skills.
I would forgo the standard "Orders" derv (i know you dont use it) as basicly this build is just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing weak, i wont go into details but its just another all area, sub par, this works (just) build. Going nec main with OOtV Hero and slapping on SoH somewhere will far surpass ANY orders derv in a Phys team.

If you can run with another player try to grab an AP MoP nuker, this allows u to drop the attack skills and just rely on auto attacks as even a 25% ias with a MoP caller will outdamage ever the best Discord/Sabway build.

Gigashadow · Jun 25, 2009, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

For a warrior, I doubt a spear hero will be as useful as other possibilities, mainly because you don't have a MoP caller available. I'm also guessing as melee, you probably rely more on attack skill damage and SoH, which won't affect spear damage (rather than barbs/MoP).

I think one of the problems we frequently see discussing builds (especially in those endless discord vs sabway threads), is that the playstyle is so different depending on what class your own character is.

If you're a warrior, SY!, SoH and knockdown spam are all strong options
If you're a necro, you can do AP/MoP, but rely on H/H physicals, and paragons are the best option for that
If you're a paragon, you have both SY! and TNTF, more synergy with other H/H paragons, and may need less defense
etc.

So the build I listed originally, which works well for me, may be totally unworkable to someone coming at it from a paragon perspective.

AtomicMew · Jun 25, 2009, 11:36 PM // 23:36

[QUOTE=The Riven;4709730]

Quote:

If you can run with another player try to grab an AP MoP nuker, this allows u to drop the attack skills and just rely on auto attacks as even a 25% ias with a MoP caller will outdamage ever the best Discord/Sabway build.

Sounds like a challenge

[discord][animate bone fiends]

Discord is doing 30 DPS. Bone Fiends are doing 15*10/2 = 75 DPS. With barbs/MoP, bone fiends are doing 10/2*15 = 75 single target DPS and 10/2*40 = 200 AoE DPS. Total, 180 single target DPS and 200 AoE DPS.

When you say MoP caller + para will outdamage discord, you are comparing 2 entire builds vs. 1 spell. What you are doing is called a false dichotomy.

Logic. It works.

edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

So the build I listed originally, which works well for me, may be totally unworkable to someone coming at it from a paragon perspective.

Yeah, but I wasn't discussing the build you posted, I was discussing spear heroes

I was just saying that the pitiful base DPS spears do is not really an issue like you make it out to be, in the right environment.

I actually can't really say off hand whether the build you posted will work. You're right of course: different primaries, different play styles....

The Riven · Jun 26, 2009, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Sounds like a challenge

[discord][animate bone fiends]

Discord is doing 30 DPS. Bone Fiends are doing 15*10/2 = 75 DPS. With barbs/MoP, bone fiends are doing 10/2*15 = 75 single target DPS and 10/2*40 = 200 AoE DPS. Total, 180 single target DPS and 200 AoE DPS.

When you say MoP caller + para will outdamage discord, you are comparing 2 entire builds vs. 1 spell. What you are doing is called a false dichotomy.

Logic. It works

Drop discord and run a MM hero with OotV, there is no reason why u cant still run minions in a non discord build.

Discord as u say is 30 DPS while OOtV is 16 life steal from ALL party members with phys dmg.

There ya go, im comparing 1 elite skill Vs 1 elite skill, on a hero no less.

AtomicMew · Jun 26, 2009, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

Drop discord and run a MM hero with OotV, there is no reason why u cant still run minions in a non discord build.

Discord as u say is 30 DPS while OOtV is 16 life steal from ALL party members with phys dmg.

There ya go, im comparing 1 elite skill Vs 1 elite skill, on a hero no less.

It's only 13, actually, unless you want to run triple Sup runes, blood death AND soul reaping.

1) By taking ootv on a MM, you lose out on a LOT. On an N/Mo, Aegis, prot spirit, convert hex. N/P SYG! for party wide armor buff and Fall Back (you should be running double fall back for VQs anyway).

2) OotV is only worthwhile when you can bring at least ~3+ ranged physicals (~1.5+ if you're a physical yourself). Otherwise, the damage is dominated by discord. If you're a caster (and I am), that's only realistically going to happen in Nightfall and EotN (H/H). By the way, I actually do run OotV in EotN and Nightfall, but in Proph and Factions, there's just no point.

Anyway, tldr: the point is a discorder is not dominated by a paragon hero in damage or overall usefulness. Neither is discord strictly dominated by OotV.

The Riven · Jun 26, 2009, 06:31 AM // 06:31

I guess it all really depends on your main.

Running as a Paragon (imba) i find im better off with OOtV in most if not all areas of the game, though i can understand why a caster will prefer to utilise other skills on other heros.