Curse

Improvavel · Feb 11, 2010, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Just 2 human physicals are not enough justification for an orders build. Paragon heroes are not as good, unless for the narrow case of supporting Paragon players then there can be some redeeming value.

Are not as good as what in exactly what situation?

So 2 human physicals - melee even. They will surely love soh and an order. A order necro can carry both. Additionally dark fury will ensure quite good SY coverage (and boost any adrenal skills if they are warriors). If I'm not running an order and I want soh, will I go with what a RoJ?

By adding a Para there is another use for the +11 of OoP. I get more anthem of envy and disruption, a 2nd copy of fall back (if bringing that Rt/P), 2 attack skills one causing daze and like Cry of frustration for example.

Quote:

Ranged physical heroes can't detect walls and obstacles, so if they dont have line of sight, they would simply continue to fail by repeatedly firing at the wall.

Flag?

Quote:

And melee physical heroes fail by running in and out of AoE attacks until they drop dead.

That is generally true - unless you are sitting the mobs ass (yeah RoJ works great if you are sitting the mob too).

Daesu · Feb 11, 2010, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Are not as good as what in exactly what situation?

So 2 human physicals - melee even. They will surely love soh and an order. A order necro can carry both. Additionally dark fury will ensure quite good SY coverage (and boost any adrenal skills if they are warriors). If I'm not running an order and I want soh, will I go with what a RoJ?

Running an orders build just for 2 physical is not worth it because I can get more damage making that slot into a MM or a SoS Rit than an orders. SoH can be run from either a Rt/Mo SoS Channel/Smite or a E/Mo Ether Renewal Protect/Smite.

Quote:

By adding a Para there is another use for the +11 of OoP. I get more anthem of envy and disruption, a 2nd copy of fall back (if bringing that Rt/P), 2 attack skills one causing daze and like Cry of frustration for example.

I find that heroes do not work the Paragon stunning strike well. Shout synergies between the Paragon character and the Paragon heroes is still worth exploring. Other than that, Paragon heroes effectiveness is subpar compared to their caster counterparts. In a 3-hero build, I would only consider using Paragon heroes on my Paragon character because of shout synergies and finales.

You really ought to read this other thread in the Paragon forum and see for yourself what problems people are facing when comparing paragon heroes with caster heroes.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10423815.html

Quote:

Flag?

Versus the alternative of using caster heroes without worrying about line of sight?

MasterSasori · Feb 11, 2010, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

OOV is not popular for heroes because physical heroes are not as good as caster heroes.

There is an entire other thread that talks about OoV so lets keep it out of this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The guy you are slapping Empathic removal is already covering orders and SoH, can run remove hex, smite hex/smite condition, foul feast.

Or you can have that monk that has worse energy management, that won't run orders, gaining in return of a bit more SoH damage but less than the OoP will grant, and having a heal party effect instead of an adrenaline boost.

Sorry but I'll take the Necro guy.

The number of hex removal you put up there is the same as the Deny hex + Long recharge divine spell + smite hex.

FF rids you of all conditions so it's not even worth adding in Smite Condition in that case. Draw Conditions is the same for the main purpose if you are trying to make the comparison. FF may net you more health and energy, but DC will get those conditions off faster.

The heal given by Smiter's Boon is much larger than what most people consider. At 13 divine, casting any Smite hex/condition, Reversal of damage will lead to a 84 life gain. Coupled this with good energy from Zeal and you have a full functioning support healer. This doesn't include the Divine healing or temple's delight you can also use.

I also don't know why you would run OoP+Dark Fury when you can just run OoV. Dark Fury isn't worth it unless you are running para heroes and even then, the continuous life loss is simply asking for a pwnage. ER Dark Orders work much better than the necro counterpart.

Lusciious · Feb 11, 2010, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Running an orders build just for 2 physical is not worth it because I can get more damage making that slot into a MM or a SoS Rit than an orders. SoH can be run from either a Rt/Mo SoS Channel/Smite or a E/Mo Ether Renewal Protect/Smite.

That's why we have spears on casters . If they can't hit through walls, pull the enemies back . till they're grouped together at the corner the wall where you can hit them and watch them die

Quote:

Versus the alternative of using caster heroes without worrying about line of sight?

Daze says hi !

IMO, the 2 things that are important in HM is Prots and AoE damage . Not spike damage . How much aoe damage can you get from spells ? This is why i'd run a physical team over a caster team . Even if my physicals are just casters with spears .

Theres no way spells can do more AoE damage than MoP can esp. if you're an AP Nuker since you know how to cast MoP properly and not some hero who doesn't know how to use it . Cast it on a boss and watch how he kills his own team mates by running around them . and finish the boss off with barbs / SoH / PI / OoV / OoP .

Jeydra · Feb 11, 2010, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Monk heroes exist to:

1. Run Unyielding Aura (UA). UA is the single best hard res in the entire game and heroes are astonishingly fast with it - you don't stay dead for a second.
2. Maintain Strength of Honour. I personally can't imagine playing a melee character without someone to maintain Strength of Honour.
3. And the main one: deal damage while providing defense. This is a crucial point where Monk heroes are superior to Necro heroes or whoever. Divine Favour, coupled with Smiter's Boon, provides fairly solid defense. A single smiting Monk cannot replace a true healer, but two can - the AI doesn't push up red bars until you start taking damage, but when you do you can expect RoD / Smite Condi / Smite Hex etc to heal you. They also deal armour-ignoring damage while healing.

Pretty much the only time I will use Monk heroes when H/H'ing is if the area has lots of Undead (there are better options for damage / defense). Otherwise if I feel the need to supplement the defense for whatever reason, but not so much defense as to run a full healer, I may use a Smiter.

Arrogant Bastard · Feb 11, 2010, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Monk heroes are useful for 600/smite setups.

Also you have to use them sometimes for NF missions.

I don't use them otherwise.

Nechrond · Feb 11, 2010, 09:44 AM // 09:44

I always use at least one monk hero for Unyielding Aura, depending on the character I might add a second one for Life Sheath.

BigBear · Feb 11, 2010, 11:42 AM // 11:42

I just got Nightfall. And I use Tahlkora and Dunkoro respectively as a Healer and one as a Protector.

Seems to work fine for me.

Improvavel · Feb 11, 2010, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

.
The number of hex removal you put up there is the same as the Deny hex + Long recharge divine spell + smite hex.

You remove 3.

Smite hex+Empathic Removal+remove hex - you remove 3 or 4 and up to 2 conditions and heal 2 dudes for 50.

Quote:

FF rids you of all conditions so it's not even worth adding in Smite Condition in that case. Draw Conditions is the same for the main purpose if you are trying to make the comparison. FF may net you more health and energy, but DC will get those conditions off faster.

Smite condition may be worth in undead areas for the damage. The N/Mo orders can use either FF or DC.

Quote:

The heal given by Smiter's Boon is much larger than what most people consider. At 13 divine, casting any Smite hex/condition, Reversal of damage will lead to a 84 life gain. Coupled this with good energy from Zeal and you have a full functioning support healer. This doesn't include the Divine healing or temple's delight you can also use.

That is very good if you need the extra healing but pointless otherwise.

Quote:

I also don't know why you would run OoP+Dark Fury when you can just run OoV. Dark Fury isn't worth it unless you are running para heroes and even then, the continuous life loss is simply asking for a pwnage. ER Dark Orders work much better than the necro counterpart.

Reason to run dark fury - more save yourselves, more Earthshaker and whirlwind attack, to name a few.

Improvavel · Feb 11, 2010, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Running an orders build just for 2 physical is not worth it because I can get more damage making that slot into a MM or a SoS Rit than an orders. SoH can be run from either a Rt/Mo SoS Channel/Smite or a E/Mo Ether Renewal Protect/Smite.

Again, I've already said I'm adding more physicals and my casters have spears.

But if I run Rt/Mo it can't be a RT/P.

Additionally that orders bring condition/hex removal to help keeping my physicals working.

Quote:

You really ought to read this other thread in the Paragon forum and see for yourself what problems people are facing when comparing paragon heroes with caster heroes.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10423815.html

That is basically the problem of people having only 3 heroes and only 2 hero paragons available.

I can run 2p+6 heroes HM FoW in about the same time be it with caster heroes or just running a para hero team.

Quote:

Versus the alternative of using caster heroes without worrying about line of sight?

So you mean you never flag your heroes out of aoe or spread them out?

Daesu · Feb 11, 2010, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

That's why we have spears on casters . If they can't hit through walls, pull the enemies back . till they're grouped together at the corner the wall where you can hit them and watch them die

Other than having a spear for the spirit spammer, I rather have 20/20 wands on my other casters.

Quote:

Daze says hi !

Depends on what skill you using for daze. Paragon heroes do not execute stunning strike correctly.

Quote:

IMO, the 2 things that are important in HM is Prots and AoE damage . Not spike damage . How much aoe damage can you get from spells ? This is why i'd run a physical team over a caster team . Even if my physicals are just casters with spears .

In HM, there are not many AoE damage heroes can carry that are terribly effective due to monsters having higher armor. Armor ignoring spike damage like Discord is one way to go. If spike damage is not important in HM then discordway would have been crap.

Also there is a difference between physical damage heroes/henchies with terrible AI, and physical damage characters. It doesn't matter how good the skills are if your melee heroes run in and out of AoE, they wont be very useful.

Quote:

Theres no way spells can do more AoE damage than MoP can esp. if you're an AP Nuker since you know how to cast MoP properly and not some hero who doesn't know how to use it . Cast it on a boss and watch how he kills his own team mates by running around them . and finish the boss off with barbs / SoH / PI / OoV / OoP .

I find MoP to be quite overrated nowadays. I have tried many MoP setup and it is really not that easy to get optimum grouping of enemies everytime for adjacent MoP triggering. When the situation happens, it is nice to see the numbers, but it doesn't happen often enough.

MasterSasori · Feb 11, 2010, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You remove 3.

Smite hex+Empathic Removal+remove hex - you remove 3 or 4 and up to 2 conditions and heal 2 dudes for 50.

The 4th from Empathic is nontargeted and doesn't remove the hex that needs to be removed. It doesn't always remove a hex as you said. I waste an elite for energy, you waste yours on something a smite monk can do with basic skills.

Heals are already superior on monks. Empathic has nothing on divine favor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Smite condition may be worth in undead areas for the damage. The N/Mo orders can use either FF or DC.

Conditions rarely matter and when it does, something other than FF would be better for widespread removal. Draw does a better job anyway for removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

That is very good if you need the extra healing but pointless otherwise.

2 smite means one less healer. Can't say the same for your necro. And often you do need the extra healing. It's like saying the Dark Fury is worthless when there are no adren skills. Duh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Reason to run dark fury - more save yourselves, more Earthshaker and whirlwind attack, to name a few.

Yet the ER dark orders still work better than the necro if that's what you need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I find MoP to be quite overrated nowadays. I have tried many MoP setup and it is really not that easy to get optimum grouping of enemies everytime for adjacent MoP triggering. When the situation happens, it is nice to see the numbers, but it doesn't happen often enough.

It's not too difficult to bait the monsters into getting to the middle in large masses where MoP is most effective. When MoP isn't effective then you don't need to worry about fast killing speed as you got the situation under control.

Improvavel · Feb 11, 2010, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

The 4th from Empathic is nontargeted and doesn't remove the hex that needs to be removed. It doesn't always remove a hex as you said. I waste an elite for energy, you waste yours on something a smite monk can do with basic skills.

Again does your smite monk cast orders? You are trading some heal for damage going smite vs orders.

Quote:

Conditions rarely matter and when it does, something other than FF would be better for widespread removal. Draw does a better job anyway for removal.

What is preventing you from using draw condition on a Necromancer/Monk?

Of course that FF/DC paired with Empathic removal even does a best job against widespread removal.

Quote:

2 smite means one less healer. Can't say the same for your necro. And often you do need the extra healing. It's like saying the Dark Fury is worthless when there are no adren skills. Duh.

So you use 2 smite monks and some other healer. I use 1 order and 2 healers. I see 3 vs 3.

Quote:

Yet the ER dark orders still work better than the necro if that's what you need.

Can the ER orders bring SoH or hex/condition removal?

If the orders doesn't die and can keep both soh and cast orders, what is the problem with it?

I've run that same N/Mo Orders with the elite being Offering of blood and keeping 4 SoH and the guy doesn't die.

To recap:

2 smites can replace 1 healer. Ok. So you have 1 healer + 2 smites.

I have 2 healers + 1 orders.

Same 3 heroes.

ER orders can't keep SoH.

If you bring ER orders you need someone to carry your soh. So you are bringing 2 Smites, 1 ER orders and 1 healer.

I'm bringing 2 healers, 1 orders and have 1 extra slot.

See the point of the orders N/Mo? You save 1 slot because it serves 3 purposes - orders+soh+physical cleaning.

I know about the smiting monks from long ago, even pairing it with the divine favor "heal party".

Long before RoJ was changed I was finishing SoO with Signet of judgement monk teams that included those smites.

Actually I still use some because of the healing combined with the holy damage, although these days they are running roj ( I don't run soh on the monks but on the N/Mo RoJ smite).

Smite boon bonus is nice but if my 2 healers can keep up with the damage, why am I going to use 4 party slots when I can go with only 3?

Because of the extra RoD? The extra smite hex? The extra "DF heal party"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel View Post
I find MoP to be quite overrated nowadays. I have tried many MoP setup and it is really not that easy to get optimum grouping of enemies everytime for adjacent MoP triggering. When the situation happens, it is nice to see the numbers, but it doesn't happen often enough.
It's not too difficult to bait the monsters into getting to the middle in large masses where MoP is most effective. When MoP isn't effective then you don't need to worry about fast killing speed as you got the situation under control.

It's not too difficult to bait the monsters into getting to the middle in large masses where MoP is most effective. When MoP isn't effective then you don't need to worry about fast killing speed as you got the situation under control.

That wasn't post by me by the way.

But if you find that, it shouldn't be hard to understand how you can keep that N/Mo Orders alive using OoP and dark fury.

Of course if I don't need the adrenaline, I'll run Order of Vampire.

MasterSasori · Feb 13, 2010, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Again does your smite monk cast orders? You are trading some heal for damage going smite vs orders.

In that case the argument about two builds with different purposes is now over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

What is preventing you from using draw condition on a Necromancer/Monk?

Of course that FF/DC paired with Empathic removal even does a best job against widespread removal.

There isn't but not using FF would seem a waste. Or you could use the shit spell Martyr. Thats an even better job and since its unlinked, you don't need to do any investing. Regardless a cleaner should be doing this job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So you use 2 smite monks and some other healer. I use 1 order and 2 healers. I see 3 vs 3.

Whoever said my other support healer was a smiter monk?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Can the ER orders bring SoH or hex/condition removal?

No but as I said, this is an argument about three different builds with different abilities. ER is similar only by OoP. Smite Monk is similar only by Smite. OoP and Smite monk has nothing to do with each other.

So no more comparisons. It's a waste of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

If the orders doesn't die and can keep both soh and cast orders, what is the problem with it?

IF

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I've run that same N/Mo Orders with the elite being Offering of blood and keeping 4 SoH and the guy doesn't die.

Depends on what you are killing

To recap:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

2 smites can replace 1 healer. Ok. So you have 1 healer + 2 smites.

So tell me why would I bring two smites? I said a support healer and a smiter, not two smiters. Therefore all of this below
----------l l
----------l l
----------l l
-------....l l....
--------\----/
---------\--/
----------\/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I have 2 healers + 1 orders.

Same 3 heroes.

ER orders can't keep SoH.

If you bring ER orders you need someone to carry your soh. So you are bringing 2 Smites, 1 ER orders and 1 healer.

I'm bringing 2 healers, 1 orders and have 1 extra slot.

See the point of the orders N/Mo? You save 1 slot because it serves 3 purposes - orders+soh+physical cleaning.

Smite boon bonus is nice but if my 2 healers can keep up with the damage, why am I going to use 4 party slots when I can go with only 3?

Because of the extra RoD? The extra smite hex? The extra "DF heal party"?

Is a bad argument based off a false premise.

Improvavel · Feb 13, 2010, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

There isn't but not using FF would seem a waste. Or you could use the shit spell Martyr. Thats an even better job and since its unlinked, you don't need to do any investing. Regardless a cleaner should be doing this job.

So basically you say DC is better than FF, but then not using FF over DC is a waste and then comes martyr that is a completely different purpose skill.

I don't understand why you are so adamant on sacrificing an entire character slot for removal, which can only be justifiable with the presence of 4+ physical humans instead of having 1 slot here and there covering hex/condition removal.

Quote:

No but as I said, this is an argument about three different builds with different abilities. ER is similar only by OoP. Smite Monk is similar only by Smite. OoP and Smite monk has nothing to do with each other.

And then you have 1 different build that use the most relevant skills of the other 2 builds in a single character - do you lose something? Sure. The advantage is that you get a full character slot.

Quote:

So no more comparisons. It's a waste of time.

The comparison is simple and real - you want to run 2 relevant skills, OoP and SoH, you can use 2 different characters or only 1. There are advantages and disadvantages depending on the areas and the team composition. It is up to you to measure the pros and cons and decide what to run.

Quote:

IF

And then you have the ability to reconfigure the team according to the area and what is more efficient in that area.

If the Orders isn't dying you have an extra character slot. If the orders is dying all the time you aren't.

If you aren't running physicals probably all of the 3 builds are inferior,

If you are running only 1 melee guy makes more sense to bring either the smiting monk to keep soh or some other character that can fit the role.

Quote:

Depends on what you are killing

Of course it depends - it also depends on what the backline is. I've run an order necro hero in DoA (although isn't the best build to do a full run) 2p+6heros, I've run it HM FoW (again 2p+6heroes), I've run it in HM slavers 2p+6heroes. HM slavers it can be lack luster depending of the area - I prefer extra defense there.

Quote:

So tell me why would I bring two smites? I said a support healer and a smiter, not two smiters. Therefore all of this below
----------l l
----------l l
----------l l
-------....l l....
--------\----/
---------\--/
----------\/

Is a bad argument based off a false premise.

Quote:

Whoever said my other support healer was a smiter monk?

The following quote seems to read different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

2 smite means one less healer. Can't say the same for your necro. And often you do need the extra healing. It's like saying the Dark Fury is worthless when there are no adren skills. Duh.

So since this above quote seems to have been spoken without you really using it, what do you use (no irony, just interest)?

MasterSasori · Feb 13, 2010, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So basically you say DC is better than FF, but then not using FF over DC is a waste and then comes martyr that is a completely different purpose skill.

DC is better than FF only if you need to draw conditions, but FF is usually enough. When there is too much, just use martyr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I don't understand why you are so adamant on sacrificing an entire character slot for removal, which can only be justifiable with the presence of 4+ physical humans instead of having 1 slot here and there covering hex/condition removal.

It's not sacrificing a slot because the smite monk does other things. You talked about a necro carrying so and so with hex/condition removal so I provide something that is similar on monks. However no matter how you compare, the roles will end up differently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

And then you have 1 different build that use the most relevant skills of the other 2 builds in a single character - do you lose something? Sure. The advantage is that you get a full character slot.

How would you know what is the more relevant of the skills? And what will this character be? Whatever you are lacking from the necro bar may be needed and therefore will just end up on this new character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The comparison is simple and real - you want to run 2 relevant skills, OoP and SoH, you can use 2 different characters or only 1. There are advantages and disadvantages depending on the areas and the team composition. It is up to you to measure the pros and cons and decide what to run.

Then why are we arguing about a point that is greatly affected by circumstances? There is a comparison as you state, but it will not be one hero for one hero but all three. And even with all three it depends mostly on the main character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So since this above quote seems to have been spoken without you really using it, what do you use (no irony, just interest)?

My point is to emphasize that two smite monks have the healing power enough to be a healer, and thus, an excellent support. I never recommended bringing two smite monks in a party at any point.

Improvavel · Feb 13, 2010, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

How would you know what is the more relevant of the skills? And what will this character be? Whatever you are lacking from the necro bar may be needed and therefore will just end up on this new character.

Then why are we arguing about a point that is greatly affected by circumstances? There is a comparison as you state, but it will not be one hero for one hero but all three. And even with all three it depends mostly on the main character.

My point was simple - sometimes I want OoP and dark fury + soh.

When that happens I bring that Necro.

That Necro isn't my invention - it was a staple support build when masochism gave energy whenever you sacrificed health. Masochism was nerfed people stoped using it. I've tried it and don't see differences in performance under most circumstanced.

You didn't like the build - meh OoP, meh dark fury, meh Empathic removal.

It is your right to not like certain skills.

But just because you don't like certain skills/builds, that doesn't mean they aren't useful.

But you tried to bash the build in terms of logic.

You said "look if you want soh, you can use this smite monk instead".

But that smite monk doesn't give me OoP and dark fury I already said I wanted.

Then you said "look if you want OoP and dark fury this E/N is better".

But that E/N doesn't give me SoH.

So you gave me 2 builds and told me they were better than 1. Big surprise.

My argument was "this build give me OoP, dark of fury and soh, and provides hex and condition support for the physicals I'm running".

1 single smite monk can't replace one healer in most circumstances. If it is an area where it can, then you have a point - as running 1 healer, 1 smite monk and E/N orders is better than 2 healers and 1 N/Mo orders. If it isn't, the option of running 2 healers, 1 smite and 1 E/N takes 4 slots vs 3 slots of 2 healers and 1 N/Mo orders.

So as you said it depends on the circumstances - I never said otherwise. I just said under the circumstances I preferred the extra character slot available.

What I don't understand is what the 2 smites replacing 1 healer has to do anything, since you won't use them anyway.

Maybe you want to say that 1 healer, 1 smite and 1 OoV healer is enough. I guess it can be in some areas.

MasterSasori · Feb 13, 2010, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You didn't like the build - meh OoP, meh dark fury, meh Empathic removal.

It is your right to not like certain skills.

But just because you don't like certain skills/builds, that doesn't mean they aren't useful.

Depends on the situation? I'm less incline to use them but I didn't state they aren't useful. Just for the most part I see better alternatives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You said "look if you want soh, you can use this smite monk instead".

But that smite monk doesn't give me OoP and dark fury I already said I wanted.

Then you said "look if you want OoP and dark fury this E/N is better".

But that E/N doesn't give me SoH.

So you gave me 2 builds and told me they were better than 1. Big surprise.

ER Dark Orders: OoP+DF and Curses

Smiter Monk: Smite and Heal

Smiter Necro: Smite and OoP+DF

Three different roles with some overlapping. Some do things better than others and some are what is needed for the team though not necessarily the best at what they do. If you disagree with this then comment but otherwise I'm dropping this discussion.

BTW, since this is a thread about MONKS, I'm trying to show how they can be useful and contribute to a team as a smiter healer. Unless you can find a role that fits this as a single unit then don't bother mentioning it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

My argument was "this build give me OoP, dark of fury and soh, and provides hex and condition support for the physicals I'm running".

Then that only partially fits the role of the smiter monk and ER dark orders and doesn't need comparison. Therefore I want to drop this subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

1 single smite monk can't replace one healer in most circumstances. If it is an area where it can, then you have a point - as running 1 healer, 1 smite monk and E/N orders is better than 2 healers and 1 N/Mo orders. If it isn't, the option of running 2 healers, 1 smite and 1 E/N takes 4 slots vs 3 slots of 2 healers and 1 N/Mo orders.

You wouldn't run 2 healers, 1 smite, and 1 E/N. you would run 1 healer, 1 smite, 1 SUPPORT healer, and 1 E/N. You have two dedicated healer, I have 1 dedicated and two partial healers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So as you said it depends on the circumstances - I never said otherwise. I just said under the circumstances I preferred the extra character slot available.

What I don't understand is what the 2 smites replacing 1 healer has to do anything, since you won't use them anyway.

Maybe you want to say that 1 healer, 1 smite and 1 OoV healer is enough. I guess it can be in some areas.

In my last post I stated that smite is a SUPPORT healer and they need another SUPPORT healer. That support healer must fit into the team. When you already have a smite monk you don't need another.

1 healer + 1 smite + 1 OoV = 1 dedicate + 2 support. Yes this is what I'm referring to.

Xenomortis · Feb 13, 2010, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Given that Vekk and Zhed outclass Ogden and Dunkoro in the straight-up defense department, Monk heroes only ever run Smiting in my H/H setups. Smiter's Boon allows them to get some fairly decent heals in whilst using condition/hex removals and stuff like RoD. Unfortunately they never use their skills as a heal and only ever use them for their primary function.

However even then, I'm tending not to bring them. With only 3 hero slots I can usually find better options. My ER hero can bring SoH if I'm playing a physical, MMs are best done by Necros and Spirit Rits are pretty damn strong. Depending on my setup, a Monk may have to compete with a Paragon to get a place.

There are some other things you can do with Monk heroes though. They get access to a high-level SoH that you can have them keep on 5/6 people if you use a suitable build (lots of signets). They also have very strong cleaning options (Restore Condition is very effective and becomes a very strong heal) if you really need a dedicated cleaner and they have access to the fastest res in the game.*

*We Shall Return casts faster, but has a long recharge and is a retarded res.

MasterSasori · Feb 14, 2010, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Given that Vekk and Zhed outclass Ogden and Dunkoro in the straight-up defense department, Monk heroes only ever run Smiting in my H/H setups. Smiter's Boon allows them to get some fairly decent heals in whilst using condition/hex removals and stuff like RoD. Unfortunately they never use their skills as a heal and only ever use them for their primary function.

You'll have to trick the AI and use Reversal of Damage. They tend to suck at the prot but the resulting heal isn't too bad. At least they have an idea of what's getting hit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

*We Shall Return casts faster, but has a long recharge and is a retarded res.

Tell Minion that. 30 sec recharge is a b*tch and only usable on a necro.