Curse

Daesu · Mar 08, 2010, 12:17 AM // 00:17

With the recent buff to Blood Magic, it may be worthwhile to think of a Blood MM with Dark Bond and Blood Bond. Intial thoughts are Dark Bond helps a minion bomber and Blood Bond provides some heal to melee minions. An example 3-heroes build with decent performance:

N/Rt (for low corpses areas, see alternative below)
9+1 Blood
5 Curse
12+1+1 Death
8+1 SR

Aotl or JB
Bone Minions
Enfeebling Blood
Death Nova
Blood Bond or Barbs (put the points for Blood into Curses)
Putrid Bile or Dark Bond or Mark of Fury
Rip Enchantment
Flesh of my Flesh

Variant: Replace Putrid Bile with Dark Bond, if using superior Death Magic rune to attract enemies.

SoS Rt
Channeling 12+1+1
Restoration 12+1
Spawning 3+1

Spirit Siphon
SoS
Ancestor's Rage
Splinter Weapon
Flesh of my Flesh
Mend Body and Soul
Life
Protective was Kaolai

ER E/Mo
Energy Storage 12+1+1
Smiting 10
Protection 8
Healing 2

Ether Renewal
Aura of Restoration
Protective Spirit
Spirit Bond
Infuse Health
Shield Guardian
Convert Hexes or Smite Hex
Strength of Honor

and warrior character.

Alternatives to think about:

Jaundiced Gaze for an Enchant removal?
Blood of the Aggressor for weakness?
Mark of Fury for buffing physical attackers and a source of cracked armor?
Putrid Bile/SoLS/FF/Masochism/Res?

Alternative to MM for low corpses areas and melee-heavy teams:

N/Rt
Blood 12+1+1
Soul Reaping 8+1
Curse 5
Communing 9

OOV
Blood Bond
Mark of Fury
Enfeebling Blood
Rip Enchantment or Jaundiced Gaze or Disenchantment
Signet of Lost Souls
Shadow Song
Flesh of my Flesh or Anguish

Comments?

Zacchius · Mar 08, 2010, 12:52 AM // 00:52

I think a blood bond mm is interesting, but I don't think it's a skill for a minion bomber to carry. The point of a minion bomber is to crank out low level bone minions to blow things up with death nova ...healing them does the opposite.

Karate Jesus · Mar 08, 2010, 12:55 AM // 00:55

If you use Blood Bond, then you need to drop BotM.

I run that on some of my heroes. It's not terrible, but blood magic still isn't exactly amazing in PvE.

Daesu · Mar 08, 2010, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

If you use Blood Bond, then you need to drop BotM.

I run that on some of my heroes. It's not terrible, but blood magic still isn't exactly amazing in PvE.

Ok, we drop BotM.

Blood Bond is still pretty amazing because it heals ALL allies, and yes that includes attacking spirits. With the huge amount of healing for minions+spirits with adjacent AoE range and decent recharge for 5e, I would say Blood Bond seems overpowered right now.

I wonder about combining this with a SoGM rit?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zacchius

I think a blood bond mm is interesting, but I don't think it's a skill for a minion bomber to carry. The point of a minion bomber is to crank out low level bone minions to blow things up with death nova ...healing them does the opposite.

Maybe BB would fit a Aotl/Fiends MM better? This way, the melee bone horrors would get the adjacent end healing when the hexed target dies, but fiends still get the healing for each attack as do spirits.

Karate Jesus · Mar 08, 2010, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I wonder about combining this with a SoGM rit?

SoGM is a pretty worthless elite....and the big heal (when a hexed target dies) will rarely affect spirits, since the spirits most likely wont be adjacent to the target.

Daesu · Mar 08, 2010, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

SoGM is a pretty worthless elite....and the big heal (when a hexed target dies) will rarely affect spirits, since the spirits most likely wont be adjacent to the target.

The healing comes in 2 parts. Spirits still get the healing from each attack even though they dont get the hexed target dies healing which is only for adjacent allies. The total healing from a large number of minions+spirits is still worth it at the cost of a mere 5e.

I have been getting decent performance from:

9+1 Blood
5 Curse
12+1+1 Death
8+1 SR

Aotl
Bone Minions
Enfeebling Blood
Death Nova
Blood Bond
Dark Bond
Rip Enchantment
Flesh of my Flesh

SoS Rit hero: OACjEuiMpNMzrZ5saixkmjzhJA
ER Smite/Protect Ele hero: OgNEwcLu+4ULoF1DtIJBN6SmHA

and warrior character.

EDIT: Updated first post with this.

Painbringer · Mar 09, 2010, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Order of the vampire, blood bond, mark of fury, Signet of lost souls (balance in Rit heal)

This worked very well for me and a heavy melee group

Very well I must say

Not a MM but still it is nice option

Daesu · Mar 09, 2010, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

Order of the vampire, blood bond, mark of fury, Signet of lost souls (balance in Rit heal)

This worked very well for me and a heavy melee group

Very well I must say

Not a MM but still it is nice option

Yes, that is a good alternative in low corpses areas, where a MM is not effective.

Taking what you have mentioned, this can be a replacement for the MM in low corpses areas/heavy melee team:

N/Rt
Blood 12+1+1
Soul Reaping 8+1
Curse 5
Communing 9

OOV
Blood Bond
Mark of Fury
Enfeebling Blood
Rip Enchantment or Jaundiced Gaze or Disenchantment
Signet of Lost Souls
Shadow Song
Anguish

Note that the restoration heals are already with my SoS Rit (see first post).

Life Bringing · Mar 10, 2010, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Ehh, Dark bond is pretty bad. Also not sure about rip enchant. Enchantments don't really matter in about 75% of pve. You'd be better off with that as an optional. Beyond that, is an ER *really* necessary? Sure, it's a pretty strong build, but i think you could make the bars less....awkward and spread out if you didn't bring it.

Daesu · Mar 10, 2010, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Ehh, Dark bond is pretty bad.

Why do you think Blood Bond is bad?

Blood Bond is a defensive play. Instead of putting points into blood, I could have put those points into communing and double it up with communing spirits for more offensive power, similar to the Orders necro build above as an alternative.

Quote:

Also not sure about rip enchant. Enchantments don't really matter in about 75% of pve.

I disagree, enchantments are very strong in this game which is why there are so many enchantment removal skills to balance them out.

Quote:

You'd be better off with that as an optional. Beyond that, is an ER *really* necessary? Sure, it's a pretty strong build, but i think you could make the bars less....awkward and spread out if you didn't bring it.

Is the ER really necessary? The answer to that is No, it is not really necessary to have an ER but it makes sense to have one.

You can split the team many different ways and replace the ER with another necro if you prefer. Unlike Sabway, I dont like the MM to carry prots because of all the other 2s, 3s, casting time spells that the MM carries. Sab also indicated in her thread that she expected micro on the protective spirit. So, the hero carrying PS and other prots should be:

1. Able to have enough energy to cast PS when needed.
2. Have the time to spam it during combat (i.e. not too many long casting spells on his bar).

The ER is one option, otherwise, it can be another necro hero with soul reaping fueled by the minion bomber hero. I like the ER better because it is not as dependant on minions and so, can work more independently in low corpses areas.

The other alternative to the ER is maybe another rit with communing. But I think the ER has a better energy management.

Xenomortis · Mar 10, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Ehh, Dark bond is pretty bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Why do you think Blood Bond is bad?

Blood Bond ≠ Dark Bond

Blood Bond is good. Dark Bond is largely unnecessary and therefore a waste of a skill slot.

Zacchius · Mar 10, 2010, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Maybe BB would fit a Aotl/Fiends MM better? This way, the melee bone horrors would get the adjacent end healing when the hexed target dies, but fiends still get the healing for each attack as do spirits.

I've been doing something similar to this: a JB mm with fiends and bone minions + blood bond. It works pretty well.

Daesu · Mar 11, 2010, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Blood Bond ≠ Dark Bond

Blood Bond is good. Dark Bond is largely unnecessary and therefore a waste of a skill slot.

I misread. I agree Dark Bond is not that necessary but it is nice to be able to keep the MM alive through all the stupid hero AI positionings. Also, I put it on my MM because I am trying a superior Death rune to attract more attacks to him. If you dont like it, you can easily replace it with Putrid Bile or some other common MM skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zacchius

I've been doing something similar to this: a JB mm with fiends and bone minions + blood bond. It works pretty well.

Yes I agree.

It helps even more if you have a melee heavy team with you. Unfortunately, the melee AI is poor when dealing with AoE damage but the extra healing from BB is great.

I dont really like JB because you can only have it on 2 minions at a time but it is an ok skill even with this limitation.

Myotheraccount · Mar 11, 2010, 02:41 PM // 14:41

I think that blood thingie rocks! Massive ammounts of heal. Buuuut I may be wrong, havent tested it yet. At any rate it does make sense on a MM. :3

Zacchius · Mar 13, 2010, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I dont really like JB because you can only have it on 2 minions at a time but it is an ok skill even with this limitation.

I personally don't like the new AotL very much, so I stuck with JB. It at least keeps things bleeding without having to think about it. Though I did switch it with OoU once just to see how that worked...kinda disappointed that the AI doesn't use it well.

Necromas · Mar 14, 2010, 05:38 PM // 17:38

I like blood bond because it let's your minions soak more damage and makes non-bomber builds more viable, and of course it helps out the rest of your team as well.

Hell, it even makes flesh golems more viable because the easier it is to keep your minions alive, the less you need to rely on AotL. And I love flesh golems for normal mode.

Chthon · Mar 15, 2010, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necromas

I like blood bond because it let's your minions soak more damage and makes non-bomber builds more viable,

That's oxymoronic. Anything that heals minions makes a bomber less viable because it reduces the death novas per unit time. However, I like Blood Bond enough for other reasons that it might be time to reevaluate the longstanding non-viability of hero MM builds. If BBond (perhaps on a separate build) can stand in for BotM, that would solve one of the major problems with hero MM's. Anyone have any thoughts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Blood Bond is good. Dark Bond is largely unnecessary and therefore a waste of a skill slot.

I like Dark Bond on a hero. It goes a long way towards compensating for their stupidity. But yeah, it's one of the first things to go if I really need bar space.

Daesu · Mar 15, 2010, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

That's oxymoronic. Anything that heals minions makes a bomber less viable because it reduces the death novas per unit time. However, I like Blood Bond enough for other reasons that it might be time to reevaluate the longstanding non-viability of hero MM builds. If BBond (perhaps on a separate build) can stand in for BotM, that would solve one of the major problems with hero MM's. Anyone have any thoughts?

The most valuable minion to preserve, for a MM, are fiends. But fiends don't get the full benefit of BB because they are not melee. They get roughly the same benefits from BB as spirits do. On the other hand, most fiend MM also carry at least 1 skill to animate cheaper melee minion to help wall up enemies and still be able to exploit corpses when energy is low. These will be able to benefit more from BB.

As for using it with bone minions, I don't think BB prevents them from being bombs at all. But BB can keep them alive longer to help hold aggro, since they die so easily in HM.

The massive heals from BB only comes when the target is dead. Bone minions do not attack fast enough to get much benefit from the small attack heals. It also doesn't benefit the MB if the minions degen and die in front of an already dead target. But the massive healing from a dead target hexed with BB, would allow the minions to move to the next target without dying on the way there.

Chthon · Mar 15, 2010, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The most valuable minion to preserve, for a MM, are fiends. But fiends don't get the full benefit of BB because they are not melee. They get roughly the same benefits from BB as spirits do.

Good point.

Quote:

The massive heals from BB only comes when the target is dead. Bone minions do not attack fast enough to get much benefit from the small attack heals. It also doesn't benefit the MB if the minions degen and die in front of an already dead target. But the massive healing from a dead target hexed with BB, would allow the minions to move to the next target without dying on the way there.

Also a good point.

I guess I should upgrade my opinion for BBond/MB interaction to "usually not harmful, sometimes beneficial."

Rodnak · Mar 18, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Thanks for giving me the link to your hero builds. I may try them out someday. It's first time to test my own build with the tips you gave.

Just one quick question, what henchmen do you usually take with you?