Curse

Sethellington · Mar 31, 2010, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Most team builds like to take both a Bomber and an SoS rit. Trouble is, there's usually a couple of other builds I like to take so I've been trying to combine my heroes. There SoS and bomber seem easiest to merge. The reason being that the elite on the bomber is completely optional (Jagged, AotL etc.), and most of the skills on the SoS are optional utility. So here's what I've roughly come up with:

Death: 10+1+3
Soul Reaping: 8+1
Channelling: 12

SoS
Animate Bone Minions
Death Nova
Masochism

That's pretty much the base. The 4 remaining slots are available for whatever else you need, i.e:
Splinter - Melee support big AoE damage
Ancestor's Rage - AoE damage
Blood Song - More meat/some damage
SoLS - Energy/Health management
Foul Feast/Infuse - Condition management
Flesh of my Flesh - duh
Spirit Rift - AoE damage + Cracked Armour

You may ask 'why only 10 in Death?'. Well, simply put, you get 1 more minion for every 2 ranks in Death. This means you want an even number in Death, and since you're speccing highly into 2 other atts you can't afford to put 12 here. Besides 10+1+3 +2 (Masochism) is already 16 Death, which is high enough. If running with cons and you're getting +1 somewhere I'd suggest putting 11 in Death to end up with 18 in Death. This being the case, lower Channelling by 1.

Holy RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing wall of text!!

Thoughts?

AgrippaOct · Mar 31, 2010, 02:59 PM // 14:59

good thoughts but i see this more as a downgraded version of both

sos alone doesnt deal that much dmg and if ur gonna be bombing with minions you should have a few more (aotl really helps)

it could work but i personally would rather just keep em separate

Sethellington · Mar 31, 2010, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by AgrippaOct

good thoughts but i see this more as a downgraded version of both

sos alone doesnt deal that much dmg and if ur gonna be bombing with minions you should have a few more (aotl really helps)

it could work but i personally would rather just keep em separate

Fair enough, but I think since you replied within 5 minutes of the thread opening, you've not tested it, which I suggest you do. SoS/Bloodsong deals respectable damage, and you shouldn't overlook having 4 extra allies.

Saying AotL helps a lot doesn't really apply here since I've never run my heroes with AotL, only Jagged (and Flesh Golem in the days before). It's not actually that much less powerful than either, since both have their primary concepts, but are in effect utility builds. Try running:

SoS
Bloodsong
Minions
Death Nova
Masochism
Splinter
Ancestors
SolS/Spirit Siphon/Res if bad.

FoxBat · Mar 31, 2010, 03:47 PM // 15:47

I'd probably take shambling horror over meh channeling utility, and run 10 channel max death. The strength of your bar is minions, channeling is just a backup, because SoS > most classes' elites.

Rt/N variant could also be fun, albeit probably weaker.

sunec · Mar 31, 2010, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Seems pretty valid, though I don't find it to be much different from simply running a normal bomber. Cruising through PvE-land though

ajicorath · Apr 01, 2010, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Been running this for months. It's awesome

My particular version is...

Soul Reaping - 8+1
Death Magic - 10+3+1
Channelling Magic - 12

SoS
Animate Bone Minions
Death Nova
Putrid Bile
Bloodsong
A-Rage
Splinter Weapon
Masochism

It works incredibly well. Having the bomber combined with the SoS means my Rt/N doesn't have to spec in to Channelling and can play a Cursing / Supporting spirit role.
Never leave home without him.

Magragoc · Apr 01, 2010, 03:03 AM // 03:03

I personally don't like it, but it's not horrible. You seem to be combining to very strong builds into one gimped one. Sure, you get an extra hero slot out of it, but what are you putting in its place, and can that build make up for what you've lost through compromise?

For a certain, a bomber doesn't need his Elite slot for bombing, and should dip into other professions for utility, but I think that SoS may be a reach too far. From what I've seen, the big numbers from Spirit spamming come through Painful Bond with a spirit wall. You've lost both of those.

You guys should drop Masochism whatever you do. The entire point of a bomber build is a horde of weak minions that explode. Masochism's purpose now is for Minion Masters, where stronger minions are the goal. I guarantee that if you drop Masochism and run an empty skill slot, you won't see a lick of difference. Go ahead and try it, you'll see.

The biggest reason I'm not a fan is the 12-spec Channeling. Spirit Rift and Ancestors Rage without runes are underwhelming. There are better things for a Necro primary to run. There's a world of difference between a 12-spec Splinter Weapon and a 14-spec, and you'll never want to go back once you try it. I can't recall exactly which thread had it, but Gigashadow and Upier worked out a sweet little Rit/Mes build, and having tried both flavors, it's easy to see that in a situation where you really want Splinter Weapon, it's better run on a primary Rit.

I Is Special · Apr 01, 2010, 08:37 PM // 20:37

I like the idea. I dont feel the need for a dedicated minion bomber, and a separate dedicated SoS rit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magragoc

The biggest reason I'm not a fan is the 12-spec Channeling. Spirit Rift and Ancestors Rage without runes are underwhelming. There are better things for a Necro primary to run. There's a world of difference between a 12-spec Splinter Weapon and a 14-spec, and you'll never want to go back once you try it. I can't recall exactly which thread had it, but Gigashadow and Upier worked out a sweet little Rit/Mes build, and having tried both flavors, it's easy to see that in a situation where you really want Splinter Weapon, it's better run on a primary Rit.

I also have to agree with this... Imo a 14 or 15 spec channeling rit with splinter weapon is way too good to give up (I play on a warrior). I guess a hybrid could be formed on a rit primary, though energy would be an issue. You wouldn't want to give it Boon of creation, since that would require a heavy investment in Spawning power, which is moving in the wrong direction if you want the minions to die alot. I think Spirit siphon and Essence strike should be able to cover the energy... maybe

Channeling 12+1+2=15
Deathmagic= 12
restoration = 3
SoS
Essence strike
Splinter weapon
spirit rift
siphon
Nova
animate bone minions
and something else... Death pact sig maybe?

FoxBat · Apr 01, 2010, 08:44 PM // 20:44

I have been playing an SoS/Curses hero for a while, and siphon spirit is not that reliable for heroes, since they won't change position without help, and will spam the skill even when it's not returning energy. You do lose a lot from splinter not having 14 channel, but siphon is not going to cover the cost of barbs or animate spam. 10-12 spec splinter weapon is also still a hell of a lot better than no splinter weapon.

ajicorath · Apr 01, 2010, 10:13 PM // 22:13

The minions explode just as easily with masochism as they do without; so it's worth taking masochism to boost Death Nova and Putrid Bile for bigger bombs.

12 channelling is perfectly adequate for SW and A-rage.

Magragoc · Apr 02, 2010, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I have been playing an SoS/Curses hero for a while, and siphon spirit is not that reliable for heroes, since they won't change position without help, and will spam the skill even when it's not returning energy. You do lose a lot from splinter not having 14 channel, but siphon is not going to cover the cost of barbs or animate spam. 10-12 spec splinter weapon is also still a hell of a lot better than no splinter weapon

I totally agree with you about Spirit Siphon. It's a damn shame that heroes can't use it properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajicorath

The minions explode just as easily with masochism as they do without; so it's worth taking masochism to boost Death Nova and Putrid Bile for bigger bombs.

12 channelling is perfectly adequate for SW and A-rage.

Okay, lets look at the numbers here. You're burning a skill slot and for what? What's the difference between the 14-spec and the 16-spec? In the case of Death Nova, it's 10 damage. That's it. What about Putrid Bile? It's an 8 point difference in damage. It's not enough of a boost to justify giving up a skillslot.

What about the other effects? Yes, the tiny bump to Soul Reaping is nice, but you'll get more mileage out of any of the other energy management options available to you. So really, the biggest argument for taking it is for the extra Bone Minion...but when has one Bone Minion ever made the difference? It's not even a waste of a minion, as the oldest one that would die should have Death Nova on it anyways, and it'll trigger your Soul Reaping.

As to the "perfectly adequate" bit ...you're posting to a forum for critique. The goal isn't to make something "adequate", in PvE everything is adequate; the goal is to find the best way to do something.

Daesu · Apr 02, 2010, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I have been playing an SoS/Curses hero for a while, and siphon spirit is not that reliable for heroes, since they won't change position without help, and will spam the skill even when it's not returning energy. .

Yes but if the spirit is short lived, then they would be recasting a fresh spirit frequently, and spirit siphon is still better than nothing.

Another alternative is to use Signet of Creation for a primary rit (since it is in SP) but that skill is also not reliable since heroes would spam it whenever they need energy, even when they dont have any spirits that they own, within earshot.

Sethellington · Apr 03, 2010, 11:42 AM // 11:42

The primary can go either way, depending on what is more important for you:

Nec:
-Better e-management
-More Death Nova dmg
-Bigger minion wall

Rit:
-Better SW dmg and AR/SR depending on what you take
-Slightly stronger spirits.

Thing is, I want to run too many hero builds and have too few slots ^_^ So I like to take this and the second part of the Dual Spirit Spam build. And then still have 1 more slot to play with. On caster primarys I'd suggest nec primary, for above reasons. If you're melee, then I might take rit primary for SW and AR.