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Old Apr 04, 2010, 01:32 AM // 01:32   #21
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Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
First of all, not enough condition removal besides smite condition. Smite condition removes 1 condition over 7s and it is weak against stacked conditions and condition removal is more important for physicals than casters because blind and weakness are common. Second, heroes dont use Mark of Pain well unless you micro. Third, dual orders is very expensive (34% life sac every 5s), even for a ER hero which doesn't cast ER perfectly, all just to support 2 physicals (you+a hench) is overkill. Last but not least, not enough red barring or healing. Blood bond should help but on the orders ER that needs to cast 2s OOP every 5s, you may not get it as often as you want to without micro, plus there are other skills on that bar competing for cast time, like the 2s cast time Barbs and DF every 5s.

The rest are minor points. While you can still micro prots like PS, having prots on the MM is less desirable because the MM is usually too busy casting 3s animate (if you are killing fast enough) or 2s death nova to be casting prots on his own. Can do with more hex removal than just the smite hex removing 1 hex every 12s. If you are dependent on hench healers, and you have weak red barring, you have to watch out for hexes because hench healers in some campaigns do not carry hex removal.
Your arguments fall completely flat when you consider that the defacto standard Hero build for quite some time (Sabway) had:

- no Hex removal
- 1 Condition removal skill (MB&S with 1 Spirit), possibly two with Weapon of Remedy
- Protective Spirit on a MM

In other words, what was generally accepted as the best Hero build of the time ran the exact same setup that you say is a major flaw.

And while Hero redbarring is good for inexperienced, it's not entirely necessary. Learning proper aggro techniques and relying solely on henchmen for your main healing can greatly improve your Hero damage.

With that said, I don't care for Orders builds either, unless it's a devoted physical party (namely, one with multiple players).
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Old Apr 04, 2010, 05:27 AM // 05:27   #22
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Originally Posted by Dusk_ View Post
Your arguments fall completely flat when you consider that the defacto standard Hero build for quite some time (Sabway) had:

- no Hex removal
- 1 Condition removal skill (MB&S with 1 Spirit), possibly two with Weapon of Remedy
- Protective Spirit on a MM
There are very obvious differences between Sabway and that pvx physical team build. Sabway has excellent red barring compared to that pvx build. If you read Sab's thread above, sabway depended on the team's excellent healing to heal through hexes. Don't take that to mean low red barring + no hex removal is perfectly ok. Sabway has a dedicated (and very efficient) hero healer, the pvx build doesn't.

The Sabway in pvx wiki is a modified version that is maintained by someone else, not Sab herself. Sab didn't care about posting her build in pvx. Someone posted it there for her. Look at her original build here, it has Foul Feast besides those other condition removing skills that you mentioned. Sabway is an old build and SoS wasn't buffed at that time so she couldn't have made used of it with MB&S. ER was buffed just about the time when she was done with the build and ER infuse protect builds were not well known then. Heroes AI also could not use Infuse well before an update that came later. Given the constraints having the prots on MM was ok. Even now, prots on the MM, is not a big deal but there are just better alternatives today.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/3...t10292641.html

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And while Hero redbarring is good for inexperienced, it's not entirely necessary. Learning proper aggro techniques and relying solely on henchmen for your main healing can greatly improve your Hero damage.
If you are really experienced and you want optimal performance for a particular mission/vq, then you wont be using Sabway, Discordway, or ANY generic 3-heroes build anyway. Generic builds are for the people who are lazy to come up with their own build or to customize their build for each PvE area. In PvE, you should customize your own team build according to the area, if you want top level optimal performance. Generic 3-heroes build tend to be more defensive and they should, because they are meant for the average player within "overall PvE".

Last edited by Daesu; Apr 04, 2010 at 09:02 AM // 09:02..
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Old Apr 04, 2010, 07:46 PM // 19:46   #23
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Originally Posted by Daesu View Post
There are very obvious differences between Sabway and that pvx physical team build. Sabway has excellent red barring compared to that pvx build. If you read Sab's thread above, sabway depended on the team's excellent healing to heal through hexes. Don't take that to mean low red barring + no hex removal is perfectly ok. Sabway has a dedicated (and very efficient) hero healer, the pvx build doesn't.
If you actually read that thread, Sab says that Hexes are non-threatening and Heroes suck at dealing with the right ones, which is why Hex removal is bad. For the most part, Sabway dealt with Hexes by having a horde of minions to absorb a large amount of them.

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The Sabway in pvx wiki is a modified version that is maintained by someone else, not Sab herself. Sab didn't care about posting her build in pvx. Someone posted it there for her. Look at her original build here, it has Foul Feast besides those other condition removing skills that you mentioned. Sabway is an old build and SoS wasn't buffed at that time so she couldn't have made used of it with MB&S. ER was buffed just about the time when she was done with the build and ER infuse protect builds were not well known then. Heroes AI also could not use Infuse well before an update that came later. Given the constraints having the prots on MM was ok. Even now, prots on the MM, is not a big deal but there are just better alternatives today.
And yet you completely miss the point: Every weakness that you said was a critical flaw existed in Sabway, except for the Redbarring. And in retrospect, Sabway's healer wasn't that great at healing, but it had the distinct benefit of having near-infinite energy. With the recent change to henchmen bars, they are actually capable of providing decent support.

Really, you're just slamming a build for completely arbitrary reasoning that isn't even relevant for the majority of areas in Hard Mode. Will a lack of condition removal be a problem for most areas? No. Will a lack of Hex removal? Not in the slightest. Is henchmen healing enough for most areas? Definitely, especially with a minion-wall and SY spamming.
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Old Apr 04, 2010, 09:33 PM // 21:33   #24
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If you actually read that thread, Sab says that Hexes are non-threatening and Heroes suck at dealing with the right ones, which is why Hex removal is bad. For the most part, Sabway dealt with Hexes by having a horde of minions to absorb a large amount of them.
What are you talking about? If Sab is against bringing hex removal, why would she include cure hex in the 4-man version. Besides her way of dealing with most hexes is to heal through them, but you need strong red barring to heal through them which your pvx build doesn't have.

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And yet you completely miss the point: Every weakness that you said was a critical flaw existed in Sabway, except for the Redbarring. And in retrospect, Sabway's healer wasn't that great at healing, but it had the distinct benefit of having near-infinite energy. With the recent change to henchmen bars, they are actually capable of providing decent support.
Great healer hero or not, sabway has a dedicated healer hero, the pvx version has none.

Since you claim that sabway still works great without hex removal, why do you only choose to follow that specific aspect of sabway while ignoring the rest of the sabway features, because they dont support your arguments regarding the pvx build?

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Will a lack of condition removal be a problem for most areas? No. Will a lack of Hex removal? Not in the slightest. Is henchmen healing enough for most areas? Definitely, especially with a minion-wall and SY spamming.
Condition removal is needed to prevent getting blinded thus having your adrenaline gain impacted. Again, why not follow sabway and include foul feast? If the lack of condition removal is not a problem, then why does Sabway have 3 condition removal skills, including FF?

That pvx build simply sucks ass. There is obviously not enough red barring (read the OP), and not enough condition removal for many HM areas. It is especially weak against condition/hex stacking.

Last edited by Daesu; Apr 04, 2010 at 10:01 PM // 22:01..
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