Curse

HigherMinion · Apr 18, 2010, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

SoS rit with PwK + SoGM communing rit + AoTL MM with some basic prots > all IMO. :3

You don't need to dedicate a hero explusively to healing. Henchies are enough.

Just for discussion's sake though I say N/Rt is more versatile and better healer than E/Mo. Heroes have a very hard time using E/Mo because they often forget to stack up a few enchants and will spam Infuse when ER is down. ER also lacks strong party heals that N/Rt has.

I like Vekk; I use him alot. But he does RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up alot because I'm too lazy to micro... The only time I expect to have to micro a build is maintaining SoH and pre-casting PS before aggroing a mob.

Doesn't stack enchants, doesn't always cast ER, doesn't spam enough... So many problems with the AI.

Daesu · Apr 18, 2010, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Yes the ER AI is workable but far from perfect. They are really different beasts from a N/Rt healer.

To put it as simply as possible, N/Rt healers make red bars go up, ER protect prevents red bars from going down too much. Each has its own value, especially in HM where monsters hit hard.

I use ER protect for spot healing through infuse and single target protection while my SoS N/Rt double up for team heals through Life, and PwK.

cellardweller · Apr 19, 2010, 02:54 AM // 02:54

The offensive henchmen are pretty pisspoor in comparison to the defensive ones so there's little point in not brining 2 of them. With this in mind, then spending a hero slot on purely defensive option does not really make sense. You only need a PS somewhere that you can invoke manually and a couple of copies of SoA and you're set.

Daesu · Apr 19, 2010, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The offensive henchmen are pretty pisspoor in comparison to the defensive ones so there's little point in not brining 2 of them. With this in mind, then spending a hero slot on purely defensive option does not really make sense. You only need a PS somewhere that you can invoke manually and a couple of copies of SoA and you're set.

The problem is the hench healer still sucks in certain areas of the game. The quality of the healer hench varies across campaigns and areas. In some areas the healer hench is really piss poor, without even a hex removal or party heal. Mhenlo doesn't even have condition removal, so if your warrior is blinded then too bad for you if you can't gain enough adrenaline for SY or other skills. Condition removal is less necessary for a caster because daze is not as common, but still good to have especially when you are fighting condition stacking creatures like mandragors. And some of the monk skills they bring are so spammable that their AI just allows them to spam their energy dry. You can tell because they stop casting spells, but they dont show you their energy bar so people still think everything is fine and good, and it feels better to the player to just assume that henchies have infinite energy. Reality is, they don't have infinite energy and they have no runes either.

I also agree that having a way to invoke PS manually is better. This is why I usually don't bring Lina or whoever the protection hench happens to be. If you include PS, Aegis (or another blocking skill), condtion removal, party heals, hex removal, SoH, Infuse, ER, Aura of Restoration, that takes about 1 solid skill bar already for an ER to support a melee character, if you want to create a generic 3 heroes, area-independent build.

Whenever you talk about henchies (offensive or defensive), you have to consider the area because in EOTN, I still prefer to take Herta over Lina. Because Lina is so junk, even the piss poor offensive henchies shine over her.

cellardweller · Apr 19, 2010, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Whenever you talk about henchies (offensive or defensive), you have to consider the area because in EOTN, I still prefer to take Herta over Lina. Because Lina is so junk, even the piss poor offensive henchies shine over her.

You must be playing a different game than me then (or play the same game very differently

). I find that Lina great, she has a whole suite of skills specifically designed to protect the body blocker and whereas Herta is a scatter monkey thanks to sandstorm which means that your back line is going to be taking damage.

N/Me MoP curses with SV/AV
N/Mo Minion nuker with PS/SoA
N/Rt Splinter Weapon Healer/condition remover

Daesu · Apr 19, 2010, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You must be playing a different game than me then (or play the same game very differently

). I find that Lina great, she has a whole suite of skills specifically designed to protect the body blocker and whereas Herta is a scatter monkey thanks to sandstorm which means that your back line is going to be taking damage.

N/Me MoP curses with SV/AV
N/Mo Minion nuker with PS/SoA
N/Rt Splinter Weapon Healer/condition remover

Actually when I just tried her, she wasnt as bad as I remembered so there must have been AI update. The problem areas I have, with the dual hench monks, are areas with lots of burning and undead. I think the ER is more clearly superior to Lina in those cases.

An MoP hero still sucks, unless you micro it, because heroes dont make the best choices on who to cast it on. Also, fiends work better with MoP than a minion bomber would with his melee minions.

cellardweller · Apr 19, 2010, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Actually when I just tried her, she wasnt as bad as I remembered so there must have been AI update. The problem areas I have, with the dual hench monks, are areas with lots of burning and undead. I think the ER is more clearly superior to Lina in those cases.

Well yes, an ER will always be better than lina because you can choose what they cast and when - the problem is that you've given up a hero slot to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

An MoP hero still sucks, unless you micro it, because heroes dont make the best choices on who to cast it on. Also, fiends work better with MoP than a minion bomber would with his melee minions.

Minions don't trigger mop, 100 blades, splinter and whirlwind do. Macro MOP and splinter weapon, wait couple of secs then hit 100+whirlwind attack - this simple combo will kill any group that is near an obstacle of any kind. The minions are there to provide energy, mop up straglers and to eat things things like dino bite.

Xenomortis · Apr 19, 2010, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Minions don't trigger mop

Yes they do.
Any source of physical damage will trigger Mark of Pain.

cellardweller · Apr 19, 2010, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Yes they do.
Any source of physical damage will trigger Mark of Pain.

Ok, Mr take-statements-out-of-context, "Minions aren't there to trigger mop"...

Daesu · Apr 19, 2010, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Well yes, an ER will always be better than lina because you can choose what they cast and when - the problem is that you've given up a hero slot to do so.

No I did not give up a hero slot to do this experiment to compare the team performance using a ER hero with just Mhenlo versus using Mhenlo+Kihm and replacing the ER hero with an RoJ hero. The other 2 heroes in my team remain the same so as to ensure fairness.

I tried this in Dasha Vestibule (the explorable) HM and sometimes when you have 2 Ruby Djinns (1 pop up) attacking us, the monk henchies were targeted first and they die fast. My ER hero, on the other hand, was able to survive the onslaught and helped more team members to remain alive.

I choose this hero build with SoH to replace my ER so we have a full team: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Mo/E_RoJ_Prot

...so I have a damage hero now, I still have my SoH, and manual PS. Also according to pvx ratings, it is suppose to be a 'Great' build,

I gave it a fair chance.

Henchies chosen were:

1. Without ER (replaced by RoJ hero): Mhenlo, Kihm, Herta, Cynn
2. With ER: Mhenlo, Eve, Herta, Cynn

Myotheraccount · Apr 20, 2010, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Yes the ER AI is workable but far from perfect. They are really different beasts from a N/Rt healer.

To put it as simply as possible, N/Rt healers make red bars go up, ER protect prevents red bars from going down too much. Each has its own value, especially in HM where monsters hit hard.

I use ER protect for spot healing through infuse and single target protection while my SoS N/Rt double up for team heals through Life, and PwK.

What the...poop.

No point wasting two hero slots on heal. o.o

HigherMinion · Apr 20, 2010, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

What the...poop.

No point wasting two hero slots on heal. o.o

One for prot/heal; the other has one-two heals. A "hybrid", if you will.

Myotheraccount · Apr 20, 2010, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

One for prot/heal; the other has one-two heals. A "hybrid", if you will.

Still a waste. =/

When I run HM I only use one henchie for healing. Only support my heroes carry is Prot Spirit, SoA and PwK because those skills are a must have.

HigherMinion · Apr 20, 2010, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Still a waste. =/

When I run HM I only use one henchie for healing. Only support my heroes carry is Prot Spirit, SoA and PwK because those skills are a must have.

I'm an idiot, and therefore I don't even run that

I take three rangers and nuke the shit out of mobs with MoP; keybind Dualshot on each ranger hero. Things go b00m-headshot-

Myotheraccount · Apr 20, 2010, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I'm an idiot, and therefore I don't even run that

I take three rangers and nuke the shit out of mobs with MoP; keybind Dualshot on each ranger hero. Things go b00m-headshot-

Lol

I thought of something like that. Put Death's Charge and MoP on my sin and buncha rangers with longbow and Dual Shot.

Jump inside a mob with sin, cast mop and micro rangers to shoot at mop from great distance using longbows. Mob goes boomboom.

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 20, 2010, 08:54 PM // 20:54

I typically only run ER heroes on melee since I can fit soh, mop, barbs, splinter, and AC on the other two heroes.

If you are lazy like me and wanna keep microing to a minimal, this is the way to go most of the time.

Daesu · Apr 22, 2010, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrogant Bastard

I typically only run ER heroes on melee since I can fit soh, mop, barbs, splinter, and AC on the other two heroes.

If you are lazy like me and wanna keep microing to a minimal, this is the way to go most of the time.

This.

I only use an ER hero on melee because of SoH which affects the attribute spread. A PS on the MB is not the best option since the MB would be busy casting 3s animate minions and 2s DN, so if you put PS on the MB you may need to micro him during tight situations.

Having PS on the ER also allows your MB to specialize in another necro secondary attribute (e.g. curse), instead of protection prayers and your ER to carry smite for melee support.

A 3-heroes build that is customized to what your character is doing is better than using a more generic 3-heroes build for caster and physical.

chuckles79 · Apr 23, 2010, 09:24 PM // 21:24

The whole 2 Mo henchie thing vs 1 hench/ 1 Emo is really conditional.
In areas with a lot of enchant strip (ie stone summit) the E/mo would not be a good idea at any time.
However I find in most advanced areas you can get away with one E/mo and Mhenlo.
I run an imba so if I hero/hench I bring an Emo, MM, and SoS smite support.
If I run with someone else (who almost always run discordway) I change my Vekk to E/N orders, keep the SoS, and the third is either SS curses (with MoP and barbs) or Morgahn with TPiY to help all the casters.

Arrogant Bastard · Apr 23, 2010, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

The whole 2 Mo henchie thing vs 1 hench/ 1 Emo is really conditional.
In areas with a lot of enchant strip (ie stone summit) the E/mo would not be a good idea at any time.
However I find in most advanced areas you can get away with one E/mo and Mhenlo.
I run an imba so if I hero/hench I bring an Emo, MM, and SoS smite support.
If I run with someone else (who almost always run discordway) I change my Vekk to E/N orders, keep the SoS, and the third is either SS curses (with MoP and barbs) or Morgahn with TPiY to help all the casters.

Even if the hero gets stripped, it has 90+ energy to use. Still hard for other heroes to compete with.