Curse

Myotheraccount · Apr 24, 2010, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yasmine

Maybe, I just took the first foe that doesn't strike back that came in mind. What kind of test would be a good one? In what occasion would they cast AR properly? Does it require a certain number of foes around a target? If yes, how many? If no, what triggers them to use it?

A good test is to go against actual PvE inviroment. Like a mission, dungeon or explorable area. MoD makes a poor choice of a testing dummy because he is surrounded only by two "allies" that die off pretty quickly. MoD is only good to practice spikes for PvP.

Heroes usually cast AR and SW on any ally that is surrounded by a bunch of foes to maximise the efficiency.

AtomicMew · Apr 24, 2010, 10:56 PM // 22:56

TLDR, but this build is basically meta. I have no idea how anyone can have any major complaints about this build, other than to say that it's already old-hat. This is pretty much exactly what Jeydra ran through forgewight HM with. If you think you can do better, by all means.

Dusk Banewalker · Apr 24, 2010, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

With rit I can run anywhere from 3 melees while I run SoH/GDW, or I can run 3 rits with Destructive was glaive damage spam.

I've tried that before on my rit but it didn't work too well... idk heroes make poor meleers i guess.

Daesu · Apr 25, 2010, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

TLDR, but this build is basically meta. I have no idea how anyone can have any major complaints about this build, other than to say that it's already old-hat. This is pretty much exactly what Jeydra ran through forgewight HM with. If you think you can do better, by all means.

Spiritway has been around for a long time and this is a variant of it, with only caster team oriented skills.

One main purpose is to draw out the differences in heroes between character types than the usual recommendation of one generic 3-heroes build for all characters which I consider to be sub optimal. You don't share the same heroes instances across your characters, so there is no need to have the same heroes build for all your characters. It is always better to have a higher degree of customization around the character, whom your heroes serve under.

Yasmine · Apr 25, 2010, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Heroes usually cast AR and SW on any ally that is surrounded by a bunch of foes to maximise the efficiency.

Tested that heroes would cast ar on spirits surronded by a large number of foes (too lazy to test the rest but it would be logical if they did the same for minions/summoned sin). Given the short recharge and the low energy cost of AR, I'd prefer them to spam it a little more tbh (3 targets, like MoD + dummies, in absence of a better target, should be enough imo to trigger ai casting of ar) but that's beyong this discussion lol.
Not totally true for SW however - they will (probably) predilidge a target (of the same importance i.e. between 2+ heroes, 2+ minions, etc) with a lot of foes around it for SW, but they will also happily cast it on a hero with a melee weapon, set to avoid combat, that is standing still doing nothing in the backline... (preferring it to any minion/sins surronded by foes). Ofc, it can easily be avoided by giving a staff/wand to a hero that is not attacking much for some reason (like casting all the time) as heroes don't cast SW on targets with caster weapons.

Daesu · Apr 25, 2010, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yasmine

Tested that heroes would cast ar on spirits surronded by a large number of foes (too lazy to test the rest but it would be logical if they did the same for minions/summoned sin). Given the short recharge and the low energy cost of AR, I'd prefer them to spam it a little more tbh (3 targets, like MoD + dummies, in absence of a better target, should be enough imo to trigger ai casting of ar) but that's beyong this discussion lol.
Not totally true for SW however - they will (probably) predilidge a target (of the same importance i.e. between 2+ heroes, 2+ minions, etc) with a lot of foes around it for SW, but they will also happily cast it on a hero with a melee weapon, set to avoid combat, that is standing still doing nothing in the backline... (preferring it to any minion/sins surronded by foes). Ofc, it can easily be avoided by giving a staff/wand to a hero that is not attacking much for some reason (like casting all the time) as heroes don't cast SW on targets with caster weapons.

Thanks Yasmine.

From your results, it doesn't look like AR is as useful in a caster team setup as the rest the skills that are already there. On the side, Spiritway seems to support a caster team more naturally than on a melee character who can make use of physical buffs like SoH, Barbs, MoP, etc. for more damage.

In a 3-heroes build where the number of skills you can bring is quite limited, it makes more sense to customize your heroes according to the character type that they are with.

Myotheraccount · Apr 25, 2010, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yasmine

Tested that heroes would cast ar on spirits surronded by a large number of foes (too lazy to test the rest but it would be logical if they did the same for minions/summoned sin). Given the short recharge and the low energy cost of AR, I'd prefer them to spam it a little more tbh (3 targets, like MoD + dummies, in absence of a better target, should be enough imo to trigger ai casting of ar) but that's beyong this discussion lol.
Not totally true for SW however - they will (probably) predilidge a target (of the same importance i.e. between 2+ heroes, 2+ minions, etc) with a lot of foes around it for SW, but they will also happily cast it on a hero with a melee weapon, set to avoid combat, that is standing still doing nothing in the backline... (preferring it to any minion/sins surronded by foes). Ofc, it can easily be avoided by giving a staff/wand to a hero that is not attacking much for some reason (like casting all the time) as heroes don't cast SW on targets with caster weapons.

They should cast AR/SW much more often on minions and sins because they are usually closer to mobs. Your test only proves that AI will use AR on targets that are surrounded by mobs which is rarely the case with spirits.

People just don't know how to test stuff. /facepalm

And yeah they been doing this forever. So better not give melee weps to heroes on avoid combat. They will cast SW on players with magic weapons if none of them hold physical weapons. The they will simply cast it on anyone who wands bunched up mobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

From your results, it doesn't look like AR is as useful in a caster team setup as the rest the skills that are already there. On the side, Spiritway seems to support a caster team more naturally than on a melee character who can make use of physical buffs like SoH, Barbs, MoP, etc. for more damage.

Nothing stops you from bringing melee buffs. You got plenty of space. One of the reasons to why SW is so awesome is that it can easily adapt to the needs of a class playing it. Whereas Discord worked badly with melee or Sabway worked badly with casters.

Yasmine · Apr 25, 2010, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

They should cast AR/SW much more often on minions and sins because they are usually closer to mobs. Your test only proves that AI will use AR on targets that are surrounded by mobs which is rarely the case with spirits.

People just don't know how to test stuff. /facepalm

You misunderstood what I said. Reread pls. I was merely confirming that the heroes will cast ar on an ally surronded by a large number of foes and saying I don't like the fact that they will simply not use it at all in a case enough foes are not balled around an ally without a better target.

Myotheraccount · Apr 25, 2010, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yasmine

You misunderstood what I said. Reread pls. I was merely confirming that the heroes will cast ar on an ally surronded by a large number of foes and saying I don't like the fact that they will simply not use it at all in a case enough foes are not balled around an ally without a better target.

Not at all. I simply said that you could of done a better test.

Yasmine · Apr 25, 2010, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Not at all. I simply said that you could of done a better test.

It was easiest and fastest to do. The result was clear as well. I don't understand why I should have used another one. What does it matter to you if it was a spirit, a minion or a sin? I would understood if you contested the fact that ar being used on spirit doesn't necessary imply it being used on minions/sin as well (although it would only be logical) but this is obviously not the case (since you stated it is so from the beginning). I wasn't testing how often in gameplay they would use it, not even how many foes are required to trigger the ai response to cast ar. I was just testing if, given good circumstances, they would. If you want something else to be tested, then you should just do it.

Daesu · Apr 25, 2010, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Nothing stops you from bringing melee buffs. You got plenty of space.

Yes nothing stops you from bringing melee buffs, but does it make sense to bring SoH in an all-caster team?

Also remember that adding melee buffs would mean the opportunity cost of removing skills that can be beneficial to a caster team. Sure you can bring barbs and make your 4 hero casters auto attack with spears, without ias or spear mastery, but you would probably get more benefits with fewer attribute spreads using Bloodsong instead.

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One of the reasons to why SW is so awesome is that it can easily adapt to the needs of a class playing it. Whereas Discord worked badly with melee or Sabway worked badly with casters.

If I want to bring SW, I have to replace another skill with it. SW only make sense as a variant to the caster team since EVAS is a popular pve skill for casters. Level 15 bone minions do not attack fast enough and do not stay alive long enough in HM for SW to be effective.

Myotheraccount · Apr 25, 2010, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Yes nothing stops you from bringing melee buffs, but does it make sense to bring SoH in an all-caster team?

Was replying to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Spiritway seems to support a caster team more naturally than on a melee character

Proven you wrong.

I'm getting an impression youre arguing for the sake of it. =/

Quote:

Also remember that adding melee buffs would mean the opportunity cost of removing skills that can be beneficial to a caster team. Sure you can bring barbs and make your 4 hero casters auto attack with spears, without ias or spear mastery, but you would probably get more benefits with fewer attribute spreads using Bloodsong instead.

You bring melee buffs when youre running it with as a melee. Think it was very obvious in my post unless you are really stupid and lack reading comprehension.

When you run Spiritway ith a melee you will most likely drop all the heals. But since you will most likely be running SY! heals will be redundant anyway so there is no opportunity cost.

I don't see SW as a melee buff. Although it works best with fast attack rates of a melee weapon, any weapon type can benefit from it.

Got it now?...This doesn't have much relation to the topic btw so there is no need for you getting butthurt and crying over it.

Although in all honesty, limiting spiritway to a specific class type when one of the build's main strong points is that it is extremely flexible and can be easily adapted to any play style makes absolutely no sense. That's what I been trying to say pretty much.

Quote:

If I want to bring SW, I have to replace another skill with it. SW only make sense as a variant to the caster team since EVAS is a popular pve skill for casters. Level 15 bone minions do not attack fast enough and do not stay alive long enough in HM for SW to be effective.

I suppose you dont run 7 skills instead of 8! So yes you will have to replace another skill with it. Thing is that except for PB, SoS, Bloodsong and PwK your bar is full of optionals. You can even drop PwK if you feel like you can avoid AoE. There ya go, 5 open slots and half the attribute points to play around with.

So you can easily drop something for SW like for example part of your redbar nightmare or energy management redundancy.

I'm not trying to force things on you btw don't get me wrong. :P Just saying that your argument against SW is weak.

As for minions. I don't run them. I prefer lvl21 horrors. They won't get raped as fast meaning you have stronger wall, more dps and in the end, more DN damage. High level minions were always better. Everyone kind of agreed on that when Sab wrote her article (one that is stickied now) but then somehow everybody became terrible and forgot how to build their MB's. Sad.

Daesu · Apr 26, 2010, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

You bring melee buffs when youre running it with as a melee. Think it was very obvious in my post unless you are really stupid and lack reading comprehension.

Before accusing me of not reading, did you even read the thread title before you post on this thread?

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I don't see SW as a melee buff. Although it works best with fast attack rates of a melee weapon, any weapon type can benefit from it.

And that is what I already said. It works best with fast attack rates. There is absolutely NO way to bring every single skill that has any small chance of benefiting the team in a 3-heroes build.

Quote:

Although in all honesty, limiting spiritway to a specific class type when one of the build's main strong points is that it is extremely flexible and can be easily adapted to any play style makes absolutely no sense. That's what I been trying to say pretty much.

You can kneel down and worship spiritway all you want, even consider it better than sliced bread, but spiritway has its weaknesses like any other build and doesn't provide as strong a melee buff.

As to the other points I have already addressed them.

Myotheraccount · Apr 26, 2010, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Before accusing me of not reading, did you even read the thread title before you post on this thread?

/facedesk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

This doesn't have much relation to the topic btw so there is no need for you getting butthurt and crying over it.

...

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And that is what I already said. It works best with fast attack rates. There is absolutely NO way to bring every single skill that has any small chance of benefiting the team in a 3-heroes build.

But it's effective with any weapon type really. I don't like your build it has to much overkill on defense and e-manag.

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You can kneel down and worship spiritway all you want, even consider it better than sliced bread, but spiritway has its weaknesses like any other build and doesn't provide as strong a melee buff.

Wrong. Spiritway provides better melee buff than necroway also better damage and defense. It consists of rits. Rits = best melee buffers. So obvious Lol. Your version is just sub-optimal and you don't understand the build. That's why you make ridiculous claims like this.

Daesu · Apr 26, 2010, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

/facedesk

If you feel a need to discuss melee buffs then start your own thread instead of persistently hijacking this one.

Quote:

But it's effective with any weapon type really. I don't like your build it has to much overkill on defense and e-manag.

Not from what I have observed. In more difficult areas, the channeling rit spams enough heals so that she used spirit siphon for energy management.

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It consists of rits. Rits = best melee buffers.

Not really. The only melee buff that I like from rits is splinter. I also like SoH, Barbs, or MoP but none of these are rit skills.

Myotheraccount · Apr 26, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If you feel a need to discuss melee buffs then start your own thread instead of persistently hijacking this one.

I'm leaving my input on your build. I also correct you when you are wrong because I don't want the more impressionable members of the boards to get confused and misled. Stop being retarded.

I would also like to point out that you brought spiritway and melee into discussion yourself. I'm simply correcting the mistakes. I also pointed out several times that the matter has no relevance to the discussion and thus you don't have to get butthurt and cry. I hope this will stop you from derailing your own thread any further.

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Not from what I have observed. In more difficult areas, the channeling rit spams enough heals so that she used spirit siphon for energy management.

As I said before. Depending on a playstyle the effectiveness of heal will vary. Some players (probably less able) will most likely need heal whereas others won't. Personally I never take that much heal. I only take PwK and sometimes either FoMF or SL because my heroes hardly ever get hit. Thus my SoS always have near full bar of energy so any kind of e-manag is pointless.

I am sure there are others that are like me. For example Jeydra did Duncan with just SL on the SoS bar.

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Not really. The only melee buff that I like from rits is splinter. I also like SoH, Barbs, or MoP but none of these are rit skills.

It seems you never heard of secondary prof. =/

You take Mo or N as a secondary. Rit is flexible enough to easily take those skills.

I explained this several times. Your reading comprehension sucks.

Since you deal massive damage anyway, you dont rerally need to take both smiting skills and curses skills. I suggest taking smiting skills such as SoH and Smite Condition/Hex then. Although if you want both, your MB can take Barbs. But once again, this matter has little relevance to the topic so bringing it up all the time like you do makes little sense.

AtomicMew · Apr 26, 2010, 04:45 PM // 16:45

As I said:

"I have no idea how anyone can have any major complaints about this build, other than to say that it's already old-hat. This is pretty much exactly what Jeydra ran through forgewight HM with. If you think you can do better, by all means. "

lol useless arguing and baseless theorycraft. If you think you can do better as a caster, stop theorycrafting and SHOW us.

Jeydra · Apr 26, 2010, 05:45 PM // 17:45

The bars you use are very familiar (imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

), but some things I want to ask you about:

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N/Mo
8 Protection Prayers
7 Healing Prayers
12+1+3 Death
8+1 SR

Aotl or JB
Bone Minions
Death Nova
Dark Bond (effective even at 0 Blood) or Putrid Bile or Blood of the Master (if you have problems keeping minions alive between mobs)
Dwayna's Sorrow (micro to also use as AoE cover enchant, if necessary)
Protective Spirit
Aegis
Masochism or Res

1) Is Dark Bond and Dwayna's Sorrow really that effective?
2) It's a bit hard to imagine a build without Blood of the Master ...
3) You don't mind not having Rend Enchants for Spirit Bond / Shield of Regen / Shield of Absorption etc?

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SoS Rit
12+1+1 Channeling
12+1 Restoration
3+1 Spawning

SoS
Spirit Siphon
BloodSong or Splinter Weapon
Painful Bond
Flesh of my Flesh or Death Pact Signet (if res shrine enabled)
Mend Body & Soul
Spirit Light
Protective was Kaolai

1) Why don't you run Superiors?
2) Does the extra heal (MBAS) really help that much? Is it dispensable?
3) A friend of mine suggested Spirit Boon Strike in place of Painful Bond. What do you think?

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SoGM Rit
12+1+1 Communing
12+1 Spawning

Boon of Creation (in areas with enchant removal either cover with DS or use SoC)
Disenchantment
Signet of Ghostly Might or Soul Twisting
Armor of Unfeeling
Dissonance
ShadowSong
Anguish
Pain

1) Why don't you run Superiors?
2) Soul Twisting doesn't deal damage. Is it better than SoGM?
3) When I used this bar the biggest issue was (always) energy - Dissonance's 25 energy cost for a short-lasting spirit with a rather useless effect makes it bad skill. Except it does damage, of course. Can the hero juggle Armour of Unfeeling with the energy issue? That's why I ran Death Pact Signet here too by the way; the SoS Rit had enough to spare for more offensive skills.

Daesu · Apr 27, 2010, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The bars you use are very familiar (imitation is the sincerest form of flattery ), but some things I want to ask you about:

Actually the bar that your ele was running has been in pvx for a while.

Anyway, I think most aspects of spiritway has been discussed to death at least last year.

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1) Is Dark Bond and Dwayna's Sorrow really that effective?

I am liking Dark Bond as a form of protection for the MM and leaving the MM with superior death and Masochism to bring down his health relative to the other heroes, to attract attention towards him.

DS works great on a minion bomber and I feel that it is a little underrated nowadays as a party heal. It is also a cheap AoE enchantment that doubles up as a cover enchant for Dark Bond and BoC.

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2) It's a bit hard to imagine a build without Blood of the Master ...

I put that there because someone claim that it helps to keep minions alive from mob to mob. Personally, I have never needed BoTM for any of my MB builds as corpses tend to be plentiful, in most areas that would allow a MM, if you are killing fast enough. Furthermore, being able to retreat behind spirits (after pulling), allow the spirits to help out in tanking besides just relying on minions.

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3) You don't mind not having Rend Enchants for Spirit Bond / Shield of Regen / Shield of Absorption etc?

And that is why there is Disenchantment in the communing rit build.

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1) Why don't you run Superiors?

I dont think superiors are worth it for the rits, and besides it would undermine my purpose of using superior death + Dark Bond on the MM to attract monsters.

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2) Does the extra heal (MBAS) really help that much? Is it dispensable?

I dont think the heals are indispensable, but MB&S provides good condition removal which some heal henchies (Mhenlo for example) lack. If I intend to bring only 1 healer hench, having at least one condition removal is useful in certain areas.

The other aspect of bringing restoration heals are for party heals which the healer hench sometimes lack, depending on your area. For this reason, Spirit Light would be more dispensable and replacable with Life or other offensive skills.

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3) A friend of mine suggested Spirit Boon Strike in place of Painful Bond. What do you think?

Yes, I saw that suggestion in the rit forum and I actually tried it. I don't find it necessary most of the time. BloodSong life steals and SoS has a medium recharge and 3 spirits to tank. The communing rit has AoU which should be sufficient for most areas.

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1) Why don't you run Superiors?

See above explaination.

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2) Soul Twisting doesn't deal damage. Is it better than SoGM?

Arrogant Bastard suggested this as an energy management alternative to SoGM. His explaination makes sense to me so I added it as a variant.

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3) When I used this bar the biggest issue was (always) energy - Dissonance's 25 energy cost for a short-lasting spirit with a rather useless effect makes it bad skill. Except it does damage, of course. Can the hero juggle Armour of Unfeeling with the energy issue? That's why I ran Death Pact Signet here too by the way; the SoS Rit had enough to spare for more offensive skills.

From what I have observed, with BoC, the communing rit's energy is fine. One alternative to Dissonance is to put the rit's secondary to Paragon and take Anthem of Disruption instead, but comparing it with the life span of Dissonance and total energy need over time, Dissonance seems like a better choice.

Death Pact Signet is fine when you have a res shrine enabled. Otherwise, it actually increases the chance of mission failure on a team wipe on some missions. What other offensive skill would you suggest for the SoS rit?