Curse

Essence Snow · May 11, 2010, 06:22 PM // 18:22

I definately would not recommend using AP build on a War.......Why play as a warrior if using a caster build?. That being said warriors are not exactly in tune with discord heros, so as others have suggested using Spiritway or ER/mm/sos suits them better. There are multiple threads supplying this information, which others have already given links to. I would suggest reading some of those.

Daesu · May 11, 2010, 06:31 PM // 18:31

I also like to point out that as a warrior, you are one of the most powerful characters in GW for playing High-End PvE with H/H. The best timings are from warriors, playing as warriors:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10425162.html

And no, dont insult your warior by playing as an inferior-caster-wannabe.

No matter how much you skew your equipment for energy, your warrior's lower energy pool and lower energy regen would always set you back to be an inferior version of a caster, when compared to any real caster.

Magragoc · May 11, 2010, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Fanboy. Ofcourse it can run AP caller, any class can.

There are no prolonged fights with these kind of H/H builds. They are imba as hell. You need to enlarge your energy pool so it lasts these fights.

You don't wait until the target is at low HP just to start off the chain. You cast AP > "YMLaD!" > mash hotkeys linked to Discord > finish off with "FH!". EVAS is only required at the start of the battle.

In the end Discord is largely overrated IMO especially if you want to exploit physical damage of your character.

Fanboy? let's leave childish insults at home. You didn't refute anything I've said, because it's all true.

I never mentioned EVAS, because I didn't need to. I showed that just THREE skills (one of them the mighty AP) is too great a burden for a Warrior to chain cast. Yes, that means you're going to spend a lot of time wanding, because lots of areas in GW have mob sizes greater than three.

Can a Warrior run AP? of course, it's the nature of the game. But you take that build into Slaver's, or go vanquish Joko's Domain. If you finish at all, I can guarantee that your team was carrying you.

At least we can agree on that last point, but if a newish player comes here asking for advice, we owe it to the community to give them good advice, not just what they ask for. So yes, you did the OP a disservice.

Eragon Zarroc · May 11, 2010, 08:03 PM // 20:03

I used discord all the way with my warrior. I used a d-slash/save yourselves warrior to give al my soft heros and henchies uber armor and the discord just demolished stuff. Worked real well for all the vanquishes and what not.

raea29 · May 11, 2010, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magragoc

In regards to Henchmen; I usually only bring a Healer henchie everywhere. The other spots should be depending on where you're going. Is it the answer you're looking for? No, and sorry about that, but it's honest.

Thanks, I didn't expect a be all and end all answer otherwise it would have been found, I wanted peoples honest opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

OP asked for a Warrior Discord caller build. I gave him the two options; either to run an AP caller or a melee-orientated Asuran Scan variants. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. In the end Discord is largely overrated IMO especially if you want to exploit physical damage of your character.

Yes you did provide me with what I asked and you explain it as well. Thanks for expanding my options by a few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magragoc

At least we can agree on that last point, but if a newish player comes here asking for advice, we owe it to the community to give them good advice, not just what they ask for. So yes, you did the OP a disservice.

It wasn't so much a disservice as an opinion/choice I will thankfully decline using. The Asura Scan he mentioned is good but it's a post to ask for several opinions on teams. Although I perfectly followed you logic and AP caster build just wouldn't work.

Life Bringing · May 11, 2010, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Basically, your build should come down to how much effort you'd like to put in to the game. If you want to achieve optimum results in the more difficult areas(eg, HM slavers), I would suggest devoting time to learning EFGJack's builds, which have already been linked. You won't find a much more effective build if you're ready to put the effort into it.

On the opposite side of the spectrum is Sabway. You can literally cspace your way through most PvE with this, paying little attention to anything. The only thing really necessary to micro in sabway is a prot spirit before agroing. If you plan to run this, I would suggest taking a look at AotL to see I'd you prefer it over JB. I would also suggest dropping the SS for an SoS with Strength of Honor because heroes are absolutely terrible with SS targetting.

In the middle is spiritway, arguably the best results for effort involved. It will absolutely destroy all PvE situations you come across. Casters only need the hybrid SoS and 1 healer hench for healing, although you might consider both monks when using a warrior. The microing needed here is flagging your heroes a little bit apart(a diamond works really well, with te MM in front, rits on the side, and hench in back), and microing a couple spirits as you run up to grab agro and pull it back. The damage done is absolutely ridiculous, and it tears through just about anything.

It's mostly preference depending on how much effort you want to put in. If you're just starting out on a warrior, I would probably suggest 2 eles and 2 monks. Keep Herta and mhenlo(or w/e dedicated healer hench there is) at all times, but you can usually get away with dropping cynn and lina for zho or something.

Myotheraccount · May 11, 2010, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

I never mentioned EVAS, because I didn't need to. I showed that just THREE skills (one of them the mighty AP) is too great a burden for a Warrior to chain cast. Yes, that means you're going to spend a lot of time wanding, because lots of areas in GW have mob sizes greater than three.

You theorycrafted badly. There is time during and between spikes where you recover some of your energy. Thus in the end youre losing maybe 4 energy per call not counting EVAS.

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Can a Warrior run AP? of course, it's the nature of the game. But you take that build into Slaver's, or go vanquish Joko's Domain. If you finish at all, I can guarantee that your team was carrying you.

I don't get why you choose to view AP caller as a one off build all of a sudden. You are supposed to be running it with hero setups like Discord or Spiritway. In other scenarios I'd rather not run it (on a Warrior anyway). Also, putting Slaver's on the same level as Joko's Domain makes absolutely no sense to me.

Quote:

At least we can agree on that last point, but if a newish player comes here asking for advice, we owe it to the community to give them good advice, not just what they ask for. So yes, you did the OP a disservice.

Absolutely not. Discord performs best with the AP caller. There is no other build that can call at the same pace and single-handedly dish out as much spike damage. With the right setup yellows can peform well enough with that build. I included that equipment in my post. There are other options which I have also mentioned. But, as a whole, Discord is meh with Yellows.

So here's the truth; Warriors are fine with AP caller. It's up for the OP to fiddle with the options and determine what's best for him. No disservice there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

In the middle is spiritway, arguably the best results for effort involved. It will absolutely destroy all PvE situations you come across. Casters only need the hybrid SoS and 1 healer hench for healing, although you might consider both monks when using a warrior. The microing needed here is flagging your heroes a little bit apart(a diamond works really well, with te MM in front, rits on the side, and hench in back), and microing a couple spirits as you run up to grab agro and pull it back. The damage done is absolutely ridiculous, and it tears through just about anything.

I second this.

Magragoc · May 11, 2010, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

You theorycrafted badly. There is time during and between spikes where you recover some of your energy. Thus in the end youre losing maybe 4 energy per call not counting EVAS.

I don't get why you choose to view AP caller as a one off build all of a sudden. You are supposed to be running it with hero setups like Discord or Spiritway. In other scenarios I'd rather not run it (on a Warrior anyway). Also, putting Slaver's on the same level as Joko's Domain makes absolutely no sense to me.

Absolutely not. Discord performs best with the AP caller. There is no other build that can call at the same pace and single-handedly dish out as much spike damage. With the right setup yellows can peform well enough with that build. I included that equipment in my post. There are other options which I have also mentioned. But, as a whole, Discord is meh with Yellows.

Going by your other posts, this is how every discussion goes with you. you just refuse to listen to reason.

The example I gave you was heavily biased towards the Warrior AP caller. The enemy was close to death, the warrior was at full energy, and his three skill chain killed it without fear of hex removal. What was the result? He blew most of his energy, and didn't recover enough to be effective. That's not taking into account EVAS, or you know....the other four skills he'll have. Those three skills alone will drain his energy to nothing quickly, leaving him to wand. A lot. Two pips of energy regeneration on top of Assassin's Promise aren't supplying enough energy to be worth mentioning. Not in that short period of time that you spike a target with Discord.

I mentioned Slavers and Joko's HM because they're both areas that will destroy a caster Warrior, whereas a Warrior with a normal build can clear them with minimal difficulty. They have large mobs, with ressurection skills that your discord team isn't set up to counter. The "standard" Discord build has a N/Mo Bomber/protter, and two N/Rits. You as a W/A and henchies leave you with no way to counter ressurections, especially "We Shall Return!" These are precisely the drawn-out fights that will most clearly highlight how horrible a W/A AP caller is.

Yes, AP caller builds are much better on casters. In fact, I'd say that they're only feasible on casters in any HM area. But Discord and Warriors don't mix. Discord is all spike damage, but Warriors are the opposite. Pressure 'till the cows come home. Trying to shoehorn one into the other will always be suboptimal. As I said in a previous post, play to your strengths. You can run a Warrior caller with Withering Aura and Asura Scan, but it's very, very poor compared to the damage you'll get from build that are built around you.

Daesu · May 11, 2010, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

I used discord all the way with my warrior. I used a d-slash/save yourselves warrior to give al my soft heros and henchies uber armor and the discord just demolished stuff. Worked real well for all the vanquishes and what not.

So do Sabway, Spiritway, and many others.

PvE is easy enough that many of these options would work well for most areas. But just because something works doesn't imply it is the best option for a warrior.

From the H/H contests, the best times are held for a warrior holding aggro, with RoJ heroes casting AoE spells even though that build itself requires quite abit of micro. I am sure there are other hero builds, with AoE damage instead of Discord, that would also work well with a warrior but with much fewer micro needed.

For the record, they also invited people to use discordway for the contest, but discordway didn't work well enough.

Dusk_ · May 12, 2010, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Discordway basically gimps any decent Physical build.

Any dedicated damage dealing build should match, if not exceed, Discordway's DPS on single targets on it's own. That's not even counting a Scythe's multi-hits, if you're running one of those.

Any AoE build, like Axes or Hammers, runs completely counter to Discord. While you're trying to wipe out several enemies at once, your Heroes are pinging them down one at a time.

With Earthshaker, you have entire mobs on their backs almost constantly...and once again, wasting that opportunity with one-at-a-time kills.

Run any Death Blossom Spammer, and you're killing off your targets before you get any decent AoE spam in, which cripples your DPS.

There's absolutely no reason to run Discord on a physical character. I could run a strict damage build, and put Splinter Weapon, SoH and Ancestor's Rage on a Hero, and I would probably be wiping out mobs faster on my own. What's more, I wouldn't be relying on AI to prioritize damage over a useless Hex.

Myotheraccount · May 12, 2010, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magragoc

Going by your other posts, this is how every discussion goes with you. you just refuse to listen to reason.

The example I gave you was heavily biased towards the Warrior AP caller. The enemy was close to death, the warrior was at full energy, and his three skill chain killed it without fear of hex removal. What was the result? He blew most of his energy, and didn't recover enough to be effective. That's not taking into account EVAS, or you know....the other four skills he'll have. Those three skills alone will drain his energy to nothing quickly, leaving him to wand. A lot. Two pips of energy regeneration on top of Assassin's Promise aren't supplying enough energy to be worth mentioning. Not in that short period of time that you spike a target with Discord.

I mentioned Slavers and Joko's HM because they're both areas that will destroy a caster Warrior, whereas a Warrior with a normal build can clear them with minimal difficulty. They have large mobs, with ressurection skills that your discord team isn't set up to counter. The "standard" Discord build has a N/Mo Bomber/protter, and two N/Rits. You as a W/A and henchies leave you with no way to counter ressurections, especially "We Shall Return!" These are precisely the drawn-out fights that will most clearly highlight how horrible a W/A AP caller is.

Yes, AP caller builds are much better on casters. In fact, I'd say that they're only feasible on casters in any HM area. But Discord and Warriors don't mix. Discord is all spike damage, but Warriors are the opposite. Pressure 'till the cows come home. Trying to shoehorn one into the other will always be suboptimal. As I said in a previous post, play to your strengths. You can run a Warrior caller with Withering Aura and Asura Scan, but it's very, very poor compared to the damage you'll get from build that are built around you.

Let me correct you, I don't listen to tools. If someone provides me with a valid, well written reason to why any of my statements are incorrect or that the setups I currently play with should be changed then I will listen. Unfortunately vast majority of people that frequent these boards argue with me simply for the sake of it. There are two dominant reasons to why this happens: People are fanboys that believe that only one build or mechanic is a pinnacle of all the Guilwor when in reality, there are many. Those includes melee-based builds, SR, ER Prots and of course Discord. For Christ’s sake realise for once that we are no longer in Sabway era when far less skills were so powercreeped. We got many more options now all of which have their strengths and weaknesses. That derives from the second reason which is that people are tools that get used by certain ignorant members of the community with big e-creds that don't even appear in this game anymore. That's why we see people bashing PvX, bashing Anet, bashing anything really without clear understanding of why they are bashing it apart from that some e-god did that too at some point. Good examples include Daesu who, for a reason I don't know nor care about, went as far as derailing several threads in an attempt to definitively prove me wrong but in the end not even come close to it. That's who you are now. You got pissed because I suggested Warrior AP caller which contradicts the way that class is commonly viewed and now unleashing your vengeance on me across this entire thread. No reason you could clearly explain, it simply contradicted popular belief.
You try to validate your argument with poor theorycrafting throughout several of your post. It's poor and it does not depict a realistic situation. Let me break it down so it's easier to understand:

Quote:

The enemy was close to death, the warrior was at full energy, and his three skill chain killed it without fear of hex removal. What was the result? He blew most of his energy, and didn't recover enough to be effective.

Two things wrong with this. AP caller does not normally wait for the target to reach critical condition to unleash his chain. AP and YMLaD! is cast at the beginning of the fight and FH! as a finisher. EVAS is sometimes used in-between. This means that realistically, the only time AP caller uses his chain on a near dead target is well into the fight when most foes are severely damaged by exploding minions, degen and hexes. On such foes, normally only AP > FH! will be used since they are below 50% hp. Not counting energy regen that 15 energy out of which you get 17 returned to you with AP. Targets normally reach this condition very early into the fight although it depends on pulls and your target choice. So, no, Warrior didn't blow all his energy and performed quite well actually.

Quote:

That's not taking into account EVAS, or you know....the other four skills he'll have. Those three skills alone will drain his energy to nothing quickly, leaving him to wand. A lot.

I normally wouldn’t take EVAS into account either. You see, it is only required to cast it at the start of the fight to gain more damage and reach the point at which the mob starts wiping quicker and gain protection from extra meatshields. That means it is cast maybe once or twice per fight. Four other skills you take are unimportant and normally aren’t being cast at all. They normally include res and various backup hexes and conditions.

Quote:

Two pips of energy regeneration on top of Assassin's Promise aren't supplying enough energy to be worth mentioning. Not in that short period of time that you spike a target with Discord.

As I have shown above this claim is in fact it is wrong. It was based off inaccurate theorycrafted that I have proven to be such. I will go ahead and say you are doing the OP a disservice by such a claim.

Quote:

I mentioned Slavers and Joko's HM because they're both areas that will destroy a caster Warrior, whereas a Warrior with a normal build can clear them with minimal difficulty. They have large mobs, with ressurection skills that your discord team isn't set up to counter. The "standard" Discord build has a N/Mo Bomber/protter, and two N/Rits. You as a W/A and henchies leave you with no way to counter ressurections, especially "We Shall Return!" These are precisely the drawn-out fights that will most clearly highlight how horrible a W/A AP caller is.

I would say that these areas are tough for Discordway as a whole. You see, the main problem with this build is that it just isn't good at dealing with large mobs that can even res at you even now and then. That's why we don't see Discord being taken into Dungeons or areas with these kinds of mobs often unlike Spiritway and Tank&Spank based options. For Joko's the ideal thing to take, obviously, is holy damage.
You are wrong saying that only Warrior AP caller will struggle through those areas with Discord, it concerns all classes. Discord is good at dealing with your average PvE tasks like Missions and most Areas on and off HM. To me, Discord is only worth running when vanquishing newbie 4 man areas or running on new characters inb4 I set up Spiritway. "Struggle" is of course a strong word to use, we all know how easy PvE is even if your build doesn’t fit in well. That especially concerns Joko's.
Still, your post doesn't provide a valid reason to why Warrior AP caller is so horrible.

Quote:

Yes, AP caller builds are much better on casters. In fact, I'd say that they're only feasible on casters in any HM area. But Discord and Warriors don't mix.

I won't say that. AP Caller performs extremely well with any class that has 3-4 pips of energy regen. I don't remember the last time I run anything else on my sin for example while H/H'ing because to put it simply, high, repetitive spike damage and 4s knock-lock is all I need to assist my Spiritway. I won't have time to get DPS going and all of my spike options are inferior.
I would say that AP call is only somewhat controversial on yellow classes. Less so on Paras because they have huge energy management and large energy pool.
As for Warriors I agree absolutely. Discord is a bad build for them. In general Discord doesn’t adapt very well to exploit melee. Main reason for it are differences in the focus because melee=DPS and Discord=Spike. You have many more options to fiddle with nowadays to make melee-orientated setups that will be in-par with Discord. You can also run Spiritway that is much more flexible.
That said, neither of H/H cookie cutter c+space build work well with a warrior IMO. It is a class that you can't afford to be lazy with. You should either prepare yourself to run builds that involve high game awareness and intelligent play such as these or choose to play an Assassin instead.

Listen to this, you aren't that good enough at this game to come up with an argument that I can't argue back. Neither can I silence you for good with my counterargument. That is because neither of us can tell relevant from irrelevant and thus don't know to find relevant things to argue against. Only that I'm wiser and try to avoid starting arguments in the first place although I do enjoy a keyboard fight and won't mind if I get pulled into one.

Daesu · May 12, 2010, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Let me correct you, I don't listen to tools. If someone provides me with a valid, well written reason to why any of my statements are incorrect or that the setups I currently play with should be changed then I will listen. Unfortunately vast majority of people that frequent these boards argue with me simply for the sake of it.

Actually it is because of your superiority attitude. If you want to call us "retards", "tools", or "fanboys" simply typing out words is not enough to convince anyone that you are indeed superior to anyone. Classic example is EFGJack, but at least he has screenshots to show for it. You don't. Which means you are just a wannabe with self-proclaimed superiority over the rest of us without providing even a single shred of proof.

Quote:

Good examples include Daesu who, for a reason I don't know nor care about, went as far as derailing several threads in an attempt to definitively prove me wrong but in the dn not even come close to it. That's who you are now. You got pissed because I suggested Warrior AP caller which contradicts and now unleashing your vengeance on me across this entire thread. No reason you could clearly explain, it simply contradicted popular belief.

Why should I be pissed? You always have that chance to prove us all wrong by using your Warrior AP caller in the H/H competition. Why can't you just prove to us that you are indeed as good as you say you are? Instead of flaming everyone here in almost every post that you make and trying so hard to convince all of us, using mere words, that you are indeed better than us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

That said, neither of H/H cookie cutter c+space build work well with a warrior IMO. It is a class that you can't afford to be lazy with. You should either prepare yourself to run builds that involve high game awareness and intelligent play such as these or choose to play an Assassin instead.

It is not difficult to create H/H builds for a warrior to c+space through most parts of PvE and there are existing H/H builds that allow a warrior to do just that. Of course it will not clear mobs as fast as when you micro well, but it will still be as effective (if not more) than your typical discordway.

Discordway is highly overrated especially with the much better build options that we have nowadays.

Magragoc · May 12, 2010, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Okay man, this is getting tiresome. The unwarranted personal attacks, and the strange insistence that I'm "unleashing" any kind of "vengeance" in this thread is laughable. I think the OP see's how it is, and this hijack needs to end.

My example, in the end, was far more lenient on the warrior than yours. As an AP caller, you're going to be casting your hexes on every target to get. You don't lead off with AP. If a mob has any kind of hex removal, or even a timely Mark of Protection, you're screwed for 45 seconds. So in-game, your warrior would cast a hex to prime Discord and draw out any hex removal before using AP. Unless of course, you do as I recommended, and go AP > YMLaD! > FH!. That's a near-instant death, and only the luckiest hex removal can strip it.

One of the things thats baffling me is the doublethink in your post; in one breath you say that you lead off with AP, and then two sentences later, say that AP > FH! should only be used on foes at less than 50% health.

EVAS? You should be using it as often as you can! I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't; unblockable physical damage, homing meatshield, knockdown, it's fantastic.

A Warrior with full Radiant Insignias, two Attunement runes, and a +20 energy staff will have 57 energy. At first glance, that seems impressive, but more energy does not equal energy management. In your example, you only open with AP and YMLaD, and as long as those are the only two skills you use, you're going to be gaining energy. But you should be doing more than just that. A Warriors two pips of energy regen can't keep up, so you'll watch your energy bar drain quickly, and you have nothing to fall back on, except stop casting and just using AP until you've gotten enough to start using FH!.

If your fight has gotten to the point that you're going Ap > FH! and the enemy is dead, the fight's already over, and you're not really making a meaningful contribution.

Theorycrafting? Maybe. I'd never waste the runes, or my time to actually run a warrior with this crap. Inaccurate? Certainly not. Any area you take this build into you're going to be a drain on your team, carried through it all.

Yes, AP works well with any profession with four pips of regen. We like to call them "casters". Assassins have also ninja'd their way into the club, but they do that often.

Life Bringing · May 12, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Igor, you are being more stupid than any other thread you've been stupid in(read: every thread you've posted in). Wtf sense does it make to only use EVAS once? You should be casting it as often as freaking possible. It makes no sense to run Discord on a warrior. None at all. I don't know how you can argue that you have enough energy to spam your bar on a warrior, when that is painfully far from the truth. I run out of energy on my freaking necromancer when I play discord. I am spamming every skill I have as often as the need arises. That is when the true power of discordway is displayed. Honestly, the only class that can actually run discord to it's potential is the necro, with the sin and the Mesmer trailing slightly behind.

As for casting, if you watch what you're doing, you will very rarely have to worry about strips. Even in areas with heavy enchant removal(ie, withdraw hexes), it is still very easy to lead with AP because heroes cast Meekness on agro. Even without that baiting out removal, if you micro discord, you will almost never be stripped.

Myotheraccount · May 12, 2010, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magragoc

My example, in the end, was far more lenient on the warrior than yours. As an AP caller, you're going to be casting your hexes on every target to get. You don't lead off with AP. If a mob has any kind of hex removal, or even a timely Mark of Protection, you're screwed for 45 seconds. So in-game, your warrior would cast a hex to prime Discord and draw out any hex removal before using AP. Unless of course, you do as I recommended, and go AP > YMLaD! > FH!. That's a near-instant death, and only the luckiest hex removal can strip it.

You should always open with AP, thats the whole point. Thats the only way you can exploit AP caller's ability to quickly prime Discord spikes. Also, if your spike is properly fast then you running a risk of not getting AP through before your target dies.
Against mobs with hex removal you target the one that has it first. Thanks to the KD lock it won't be able to remove AP that way. But you are right in a way because you can also cover AP or cast backup hex first and then AP in the end. Thats how I do it too. But mobs with hex removal, especially multiple hex removal arent so common so you still generally lead off with AP.
At any rate this is a general counter of Discord that doesnt only concern Warrior AP callers. Very weak argument.

Quote:

One of the things thats baffling me is the doublethink in your post; in one breath you say that you lead off with AP, and then two sentences later, say that AP > FH! should only be used on foes at less than 50% health.

No you just misunderstood me. Imagine a realistic scenario where apart from your spikes there are also Minions, DN, degen, hexes and henchies dealing damage. So you end up targetting foes that have taken quite allot of damage already. Logical thing will be to simple AP > "FH!" them because even including "YMLaD!" into the mix will be pointless waste of energy.

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EVAS? You should be using it as often as you can! I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't; unblockable physical damage, homing meatshield, knockdown, it's fantastic.

No ofcourse not. You cast it maybe once where it will really be useful and then targets won't be at 100% hp anymore at which point you won't have time to get EVAS through and if you will then it won't be able to unleash it's entire chain. I'm not denying that EVAS is great but spamming it like you suggest is ridiculous and wasteful. =/

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A Warrior with full Radiant Insignias, two Attunement runes, and a +20 energy staff will have 57 energy. At first glance, that seems impressive, but more energy does not equal energy management. In your example, you only open with AP and YMLaD, and as long as those are the only two skills you use, you're going to be gaining energy. But you should be doing more than just that. A Warriors two pips of energy regen can't keep up, so you'll watch your energy bar drain quickly, and you have nothing to fall back on, except stop casting and just using AP until you've gotten enough to start using FH!.

I am aware of that. But, you only need enough energy to last you through the fight and that ammount is more than enough. If you play AP Caller right like I have provided examples of above then the energy you get from AP will be more than sufficient.

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If your fight has gotten to the point that you're going Ap > FH! and the enemy is dead, the fight's already over, and you're not really making a meaningful contribution.

Exactly. The fight is over very fast. In a blink of an eye youre already doing AP > "YMLaD!" > "FH!" and then AP > "FH!" meaning that the energy consumption is far less than what you believe it to be.

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Theorycrafting? Maybe. I'd never waste the runes, or my time to actually run a warrior with this crap. Inaccurate? Certainly not. Any area you take this build into you're going to be a drain on your team, carried through it all.

Youre not supposed to use that Warrior AP Caller with players. I have been proving your theorycrafting to be absolutely innacurate throughout this entire discussion. I'm not going to comapre the performance of Warrior AP caller to other classes but it certainly won't drain your H/H.

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Yes, AP works well with any profession with four pips of regen. We like to call them "casters". Assassins have also ninja'd their way into the club, but they do that often.

Dervs are not exactly casters although we often use them like ones. Rangers perform very well with AP Caller with their 3 pip energy regen too. :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Igor, you are being more stupid than any other thread you've been stupid in(read: every thread you've posted in). Wtf sense does it make to only use EVAS once? You should be casting it as often as freaking possible. It makes no sense to run Discord on a warrior. None at all. I don't know how you can argue that you have enough energy to spam your bar on a warrior, when that is painfully far from the truth. I run out of energy on my freaking necromancer when I play discord. I am spamming every skill I have as often as the need arises. That is when the true power of discordway is displayed. Honestly, the only class that can actually run discord to it's potential is the necro, with the sin and the Mesmer trailing slightly behind.

No you are being stupid because you don't understand what I'm trying to say.

1. I'm not saying you should cast EVAS once. But you shouldn't be casting it when your target dies before you finish casting it goddamnit. That's after like 2-3 calls at best.

2. It makes absolutely no sense to run Discord on a Warrior I agree. If you read this thread I was just telling the OP the options you have for calling Discord. You know how dumb some people on guru are so if I said "don't run War with Discord" it would have caused massive QQ fest. At least it used to.

3.Tbh. I never run out of energy with AP Caller on either my Ele or Sin. I hardly ran out on my War. Dunno why that's considered being stupid. =/

Magragoc · May 12, 2010, 03:40 AM // 03:40

We're just running around in circles here. You haven't "proved" anything, you're just saying "no".

The method of play that you're endorsing is to just sit there and cast three skills. It has to, because your position that a warrior can run an AP caller build well hinges on that, and even those three skills will drain your energy alarmingly.

It's simple maths. With two pips of energy regeneration, and Assassin's Promise as the only energy management that you can run, your Warrior is only capable of dealing with a certain amount of foes before he's drained dry. Yes, if you use only AP and FH!, you'll barely come out ahead in the energy race, but what are you doing to kill foes? Nothing at all. You've become a passive spotter, relying on your heroes to kill anything, and wasting six skill slots. It's incredible that anyone could recommend that.

I think you're underestimating how much energy an AP caller uses, and overestimating how much two pips of regeneration are providing. Your argument seems to depend on mobs being small enough that you can spam skills and only run dry as the last mob dies. What areas have mobs of such limited size? HM areas in Old Ascalon? The Plains of Jarin? Any content worth running is going to have beefy mobs, too many for you to spike before a warrior runs dry on energy.

Say you take your Warrior into a dungeon. What, pray tell, is he going to do during the boss fight? Without AP triggers, he's left just hanging out, relying on his team for everything. And wanding. Other AP builds have the energy to spam the other skills that they're bringing.

Just like Lifebringing above me, I run AP on my Necromancer sometimes, and even a Necro with four pips of energy regeneration and soul reaping will start sputtering once he begins bumping the SR cap. The entire point of AP is to spam skills with otherwise unwieldy recharges. Not just one or two shouts.

As to Dervishes, they're hybrid melee/PBAoE casters with four pips of energy regeneration like every other caster. Rangers? Expertise is very fine energy management, and like a Warrior, they have much better things that they can be doing than spamming AP.

As an aside, I'm very glad that you've dropped the overly-aggressive tone. No one here's itching for an internet fight. Insults have no place on this board, and make anyone who uses them look childish.

Now, I'm not asking you to pull a "Chthon" and bust out a list of equations, but if you really want to prove your point to everyone else that's disagreeing with you, it would help for you to sit down for a few minutes and really think about it. How many enemies do you realistically expect to face in each encounter? Remember that you recommended this to a new player, so overaggro would be the order of the day, and heroes wouldn't have optimal gear.

Bear in mind that you're the only one here who thinks that a Warrior running AP is a good idea, so the onus of proof is on YOU. Don't just say that we're "theorycrafting poorly", prove to us that W/A AP calling is the wave of the future. Make us eat our hats.

Dusk_ · May 12, 2010, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Saying a Warrior can run an AP caller is like saying an Elementalist can run Hammers. Sure, you can do it, and you might be able to pull it off without looking like a total doofus, but is it actually effective?

Assuming absolute pristine conditions - meaning no healers, no interrupts, no hexstripping and no e-denial - a warrior might be able to muster a decent effort with Discord, but it'll never be as fast as a caster.

Anime Divine · May 12, 2010, 08:19 AM // 08:19

the only conclusion i can draw here is that physicals shouldnt use discord because discord only supposed to be used with ap caller builds(casters) because thats what best.

give me a sec here:
Laughing Out Loud!!!!! ROFL!!!hahaha. soooo anyways my final opinion here before i move on.

the only question is what is your definition of discord. other than 3 necros with discord on it.
and the only thing that discord needs is a hex and condition.
the only thing thats left is some heal
to make it more effective find some skills that suits physical class. really its not that hard.

ap caller is fast quik and deadly. but as physical class you want to chop things to pieces.
not stand there like a caster.

another reason not to play ap caller as physical.

you can play scythe/daggers/sword/axe/hammer/spear. all of those cabaple of applying conditions and hex wich ofcourse DUUUH!! suits a discord necro

those variables are more fun than playing a discord with ap caller alone.
so please stop this lame bickering about ap callers en discord not belong with phyiscal class.

Myotheraccount · May 12, 2010, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magragoc

We're just running around in circles here. You haven't "proved" anything, you're just saying "no".

Then same goes to you. There isn't much to prove apart from the fact that AP Caller on a Warrior isn't as bad as you say it is. I mean one way or another running Discord on a Warrior won't be effective.
With Hundred Blades and URF SHAKUR being most effective Warrior builds you want to block mobs in a tight ball and blow them up at once with MoP or RoJ instead of killing them one by one with Discord.

Quote:

The method of play that you're endorsing is to just sit there and cast three skills. It has to, because your position that a warrior can run an AP caller build well hinges on that, and even those three skills will drain your energy alarmingly.

Yes. That what I was doing with my AP caller across all continents with many classes. There is nothing else you should be casting. =/
I mean my sin has wards, my ele either has wards or ar spells but I hardly ever cast them.
I dunno how these three skills can drain your energy so quickly at least with the way I use them. It also makes no sense to me why you should always be spamming all three of them. I mean, it makes no sense casting all three of these skills on a target that will die with just AP > "FH!" and maybe also a few Discords mixed in and maybe also "YMLaD!".

Quote:

It's simple maths. With two pips of energy regeneration, and Assassin's Promise as the only energy management that you can run, your Warrior is only capable of dealing with a certain amount of foes before he's drained dry. Yes, if you use only AP and FH!, you'll barely come out ahead in the energy race, but what are you doing to kill foes? Nothing at all. You've become a passive spotter, relying on your heroes to kill anything, and wasting six skill slots. It's incredible that anyone could recommend that.

It's hard to accurately discribe a realistic situation with simple maths. There are so many variables imo. Maybe I'm wrong. But yes, sad thing is that with builds such as Discord and Spiritway you don't do much to kill foes yourself. I wouldn't call that nothing though. That's why people run these builds, they are effortless.
You are there to just speed things up a little.

Quote:

I think you're underestimating how much energy an AP caller uses, and overestimating how much two pips of regeneration are providing. Your argument seems to depend on mobs being small enough that you can spam skills and only run dry as the last mob dies. What areas have mobs of such limited size? HM areas in Old Ascalon? The Plains of Jarin? Any content worth running is going to have beefy mobs, too many for you to spike before a warrior runs dry on energy.

Most HM areas and missions have relatively small mobs. IMO "content worth running" which I suppose is dungeons and elite areas of sorts you can H/H in shouldn't be done with Discord.

Quote:

Say you take your Warrior into a dungeon. What, pray tell, is he going to do during the boss fight? Without AP triggers, he's left just hanging out, relying on his team for everything. And wanding. Other AP builds have the energy to spam the other skills that they're bringing.

What will rest of classes do? Really the same. Discord has crap DPS that's why I don't like to take it to dungeons at all.

Quote:

Just like Lifebringing above me, I run AP on my Necromancer sometimes, and even a Necro with four pips of energy regeneration and soul reaping will start sputtering once he begins bumping the SR cap. The entire point of AP is to spam skills with otherwise unwieldy recharges. Not just one or two shouts.

Serious? What areas? This is a surprise for me. There whole reason I'm saying Warrior is alright with AP caller is because I never run out of energy on ither my Sin or Ele. I did a few areas with my War running AP caller when I was too bored to run anything else and it was nowhere as bad as you say. Weird. =/

Quote:

As to Dervishes, they're hybrid melee/PBAoE casters with four pips of energy regeneration like every other caster. Rangers? Expertise is very fine energy management, and like a Warrior, they have much better things that they can be doing than spamming AP.

Small correction: Expertise won't reduce the energy cost of any of the four AP caller skills.

Quote:

Now, I'm not asking you to pull a "Chthon" and bust out a list of equations, but if you really want to prove your point to everyone else that's disagreeing with you, it would help for you to sit down for a few minutes and really think about it. How many enemies do you realistically expect to face in each encounter? Remember that you recommended this to a new player, so overaggro would be the order of the day, and heroes wouldn't have optimal gear.

Hmm. Possibly 6-8 is a realistic number of foes you will be fighting in most missions and vanquishes. Maybe even less. Rarely there are more unless you intentionally aggro them which is a stupid thing to do with a build such as Discord

Quote:

Bear in mind that you're the only one here who thinks that a Warrior running AP is a good idea, so the onus of proof is on YOU. Don't just say that we're "theorycrafting poorly", prove to us that W/A AP calling is the wave of the future. Make us eat our hats.

Hmm. Don't recall saying it's a good idea. Running Discord with a Warrior isn't a good idea in the first place. So it's something you guys invented I'm afraid.
But, it is possible to run AP caller with a War and it won't be worse than other War + Discord options. What do you want me to show you to prove it?

Daesu · May 12, 2010, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anime Divine

and the only thing that discord needs is a hex and condition.
the only thing thats left is some heal
to make it more effective find some skills that suits physical class. really its not that hard.

ap caller is fast quik and deadly. but as physical class you want to chop things to pieces.
not stand there like a caster.

another reason not to play ap caller as physical.

you can play scythe/daggers/sword/axe/hammer/spear. all of those cabaple of applying conditions and hex wich ofcourse DUUUH!! suits a discord necro

those variables are more fun than playing a discord with ap caller alone.
so please stop this lame bickering about ap callers en discord not belong with phyiscal class.

Even though making a warrior use AP+YMLAD+EVAS+FH is silly and inferior (why did you even create the warrior in the first place? Just play a necro instead), a warrior shouldn't be using discordway because there are better options for the warrior.

Just in case someone says again, "hey Discordway seems to work well enough for my warrior": Is it possible for a warrior to use Discordway? Of course. But it is an inferior option for a warrior.

From the results of the H/H competition, the BEST times are from warriors holding aggro while heroes cast AoE damage spells. And it is not just for dungeons, I have tried many hero builds in HM for my warriors and AoE damage is still superior. The problem with Discord it needs a hex and condition, then it picks on one target at a time. With a warrior holding aggro clumping his enemies, his heroes can just cast AoE damage and wipe the mob much faster.

It just makes more sense for a warrior to go with AoE damage heroes build than the single targeting discordway.