Curse

Jeydra · Mar 19, 2010, 12:09 PM // 12:09

I think you just proved that Warriors are hideously overpowered in PvE lol, and instead of ANet buffing Warriors time and time again they should start nerfing them and buff other classes.

I don't think I'll bother trying to match your times - I don't have that much time to spare, and when I do, I don't want to take on the pressures of playing perfectly, and if I did, I don't want to create some glorified tank&spank build I can run on Elementalist primary and do the same thing you did. Have fun

EFGJack · Mar 19, 2010, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I think you just proved that Warriors are hideously overpowered in PvE lol, and instead of ANet buffing Warriors time and time again they should start nerfing them and buff other classes.

Have fun

I wouldn't call warriors OP as long as skills such as SF and OF exist.

and I'll cry manly tears the day ANet hinders my ability to PvE with just the NPCs.

And tbh, elementalists can run the same build just as well. survival isn't an issue if you micro PS and SoA on you properly.

Jeydra · Mar 19, 2010, 03:26 PM // 15:26

I know I can - it's just that there's absolutely no reason to use an Elementalist primary over Warrior primary. Warriors can run 16 in their weapon attribute, I can't. I can't even use a Conjure because it won't trigger Mark of Pain. I suppose there's Sliver Armour for a bit of extra damage, and Flame Burst and Inferno and Tenai's Crystals and god-knows-what, but that's not going to come close to matching Warrior DPS so why bother?

That said you don't have to worry about not being able to "PvE with just the NPCs" - I may be Elementalist primary, but I can still clear everything I've tried with H/H. You should be able to as well, even if ANet nerfs Warriors (which they won't ... zzz).

EFGJack · Mar 19, 2010, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I know I can - it's just that there's absolutely no reason to use an Elementalist primary over Warrior primary. Warriors can run 16 in their weapon attribute, I can't. I can't even use a Conjure because it won't trigger Mark of Pain. I suppose there's Sliver Armour for a bit of extra damage, and Flame Burst and Inferno and Tenai's Crystals and god-knows-what, but that's not going to come close to matching Warrior DPS so why bother?

That said you don't have to worry about not being able to "PvE with just the NPCs" - I may be Elementalist primary, but I can still clear everything I've tried with H/H. You should be able to as well, even if ANet nerfs Warriors (which they won't ... zzz).

Conjure is 'fine' because Hundred Blades will still trigger MoP, but using BPAE spells isn't ideal if you go melee as you are better off attacking than constantly suffering from aftercast delay just to deal a mere 70-100 damage to adjacent targets.
And I do understand your point. I'm just saying it's not a warrior priviledge to play such setups, I do the same thing on my mesmer, although I need to be 100x more careful.
And about 16 weapon mastery; I never use sup mastery runes in HM because there's little difference inbetween 16 and 14 mastery in terms of damage output. it might save a second every three pulls but I prefer the 75 hp over that second.

Jeydra · Mar 19, 2010, 04:03 PM // 16:03

I know other professions can use the same build, it's just that there's no point. Take Signet of Spirits for example. The build's best run by primary Ritualists for obvious reasons. Sure you can run it as a Warrior primary, it's just less effective. Similarly I can use this same concept as Elementalist primary, I'm just less effective than Warriors at doing it.

Now if I had a Derv or an Assassin or even a Warrior, then there would actually be a point to trying to beat your time. Run the same build except run it better, or maybe I can improve the build somewhere and so be faster. But I don't have a Derv or Assassin or Warrior. So why bother?

Read this however you want, I just see no point trying something that can clearly be done better by another profession.

WarcryOfTruth · Mar 19, 2010, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

So here's the idea. We all know PvE is easy 99% of areas are possible with discordway blah blah blah. But how about putting your money (or pride) where you mouth is?

I was actually never aware of this. Parties I have been in using Discord heroes always fail miserably, due to the lack of healing and mitigation, either that or take incredibly long, due to the lack of AoE damage and how slow things die. As a result, I never understood why Discord is so sought after.

On topic: Interesting idea... the candy is always a nice benefit I might join in on this if its not too late.

Eragon Zarroc · May 14, 2010, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Ooze pit is a poor testing place for comparison agianst discord seeing as there are no fleshy bodies for minions. mark of pain, minion bombs, and curse degen is where most of the pressure from discord comes form.

Daesu · May 14, 2010, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

Ooze pit is a poor testing place for comparison agianst discord seeing as there are no fleshy bodies for minions. mark of pain, minion bombs, and curse degen is where most of the pressure from discord comes form.

Discordway is popular only because you can be lazy about it. It is not necessarily the most efficient. It is also an old build and somewhat deprecated.

EFGJack has posted his build and timings for various areas:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10434178.html

You are free to choose one and beat it with discordway. Or choose an advanced HM area on your own.

Jeydra · May 21, 2010, 04:28 PM // 16:28

There's a problem with that actually Daesu - none of the areas EFGJack posted times for have abundant bodies, which is where Discord thrives. Without minions Discord doesn't work. The best dungeons for Discord are probably Bogroot Growths and Arachni's Haunt. I've not done either in ages and can't post times for those, however.

PS: Don't get me wrong. I don't think Discordway is a top-notch build. It's certainly good enough for most of HM, but the ultimate H/H built it isn't.

Daesu · May 22, 2010, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

There's a problem with that actually Daesu - none of the areas EFGJack posted times for have abundant bodies, which is where Discord thrives. Without minions Discord doesn't work. The best dungeons for Discord are probably Bogroot Growths and Arachni's Haunt. I've not done either in ages and can't post times for those, however.

Good point. I wish we have timings to compare for those.

Quote:

PS: Don't get me wrong. I don't think Discordway is a top-notch build. It's certainly good enough for most of HM, but the ultimate H/H built it isn't.

Oh yeah, I totally agree with you that Discordway still works well in HM and it is not the ultimate H/H build.

Jeydra · Jun 20, 2010, 02:34 AM // 02:34

http://img683.imageshack.us/i/gw020m.jpg/

16 minutes into boss room, 19 minutes with bosses dead and 20 minutes with spawns dead - and that's without the use of "Fall Back!" / "Incoming!". I wiped twice at the end because I aggro'ed and fought all three Prismatic Oozes at the same time, with two of them dying the first time and the spawns causing the wipes. Total amount of micro wasn't particularly heavy - I flagged heroes apart, micro'ed spirits, visual protted with Prot Spirit a couple of times and micro'ed Panic as well as the occasional Mistrust.

I must say I'm impressed; I honestly did not expect such a fast time (it's even faster than EFGJack's time without dual FallBacks

). That said, the last few balance changes did make this dungeon a lot easier with Spiritual Pain nerfed and the HM fast casting change too.

EFGJack · Jun 22, 2010, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

http://img683.imageshack.us/i/gw020m.jpg/

16 minutes into boss room, 19 minutes with bosses dead and 20 minutes with spawns dead - and that's without the use of "Fall Back!" / "Incoming!". I wiped twice at the end because I aggro'ed and fought all three Prismatic Oozes at the same time, with two of them dying the first time and the spawns causing the wipes. Total amount of micro wasn't particularly heavy - I flagged heroes apart, micro'ed spirits, visual protted with Prot Spirit a couple of times and micro'ed Panic as well as the occasional Mistrust.

I must say I'm impressed; I honestly did not expect such a fast time (it's even faster than EFGJack's time without dual FallBacks

). That said, the last few balance changes did make this dungeon a lot easier with Spiritual Pain nerfed and the HM fast casting change too.

Did they do something to Hard Mode?

Jeydra · Jun 23, 2010, 01:39 PM // 13:39

They nerfed HM fast casting (HM monsters now casts spells of 2s cast time or less without the normal increased cast speed in HM). It's a major change, PvE is now easier than ever.

EFGJack · Jun 24, 2010, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

They nerfed HM fast casting (HM monsters now casts spells of 2s cast time or less without the normal increased cast speed in HM). It's a major change, PvE is now easier than ever.

Right. I need to log in and see how the other easy mode is.

Edit: So I went for a tourist run to Ooze Pit, cast-speed change is quite hilarious, but it had little impact on my clearing speed.

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4206/gw056w.jpg

Oh shit don't hack me plz you can see my name &which drive I got gw on

mage767 · Jun 28, 2010, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Warriors are certainly damn overpowered when buffed properly using hero support.

In general, EVERYTHING takes much lesser time on warrior than the caster classes. For example, it took me probably half the 1/3rd the time to GWAMM on war, compared to my ele. The ability to control aggro and AOE spank at monster rate are certainly huge plusses.

I still think timing is not a relevant thing to decide if a H/H build is great. Other factors such as survival rate should be considered. The ability to run it on ANY profession with more or less equal effectiveness is more important. The only hero build that comes remotely close to this is spiritway.

Dusk_ · Jun 28, 2010, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

I still think timing is not a relevant thing to decide if a H/H build is great. Other factors such as survival rate should be considered. The ability to run it on ANY profession with more or less equal effectiveness is more important. The only hero build that comes remotely close to this is spiritway.

I'd disagree. I'd much rather have 10 optimized Hero team builds, rather than 1 suboptimal build.

The Josip · Jun 28, 2010, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

I still think timing is not a relevant thing to decide if a H/H build is great. Other factors such as survival rate should be considered. The ability to run it on ANY profession with more or less equal effectiveness is more important. The only hero build that comes remotely close to this is spiritway.

Survival rate is overrated. If two builds can do something, the one who can do it faster is more efficient. It's better to die 10x and finish something in 20 minutes, than die zero times and take an hour.

Considering that I only play with a mesmer, the ability of some heroway to be effective on all professions is totally irrelevant to me. Even if I played all classes, I wouldn't want to bore myself to death using same heroes and playstyle on all the characters.

Jeydra · Jul 01, 2010, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Around Kathandrax HM in 13, 14 and 17 minutes using the new Mesmer hero:

http://img691.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=gw021t.jpg

It could've been significantly faster, especially the third level (just look at my DP in that screenshot). I just completely forgot that Ilsundur has Savannah Heat and Liquid Flame, for some stupid reason I thought the only skill he had was Firebombs. What's more, my inexperience with the dungeon showed, and I found myself repeatedly clearing monsters that weren't needed to advance, or running past the guy with the Dungeon Key without killing him. The third level was strange as well, I couldn't avoid killing the Becalmed Djinn because first thing they did was charge me (even though I disabled all spirits).

Under ideal conditions I might be able to do 12, 13 and ~14 minutes, maybe.

mage767 · Jul 01, 2010, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Survival rate is overrated. If two builds can do something, the one who can do it faster is more efficient. It's better to die 10x and finish something in 20 minutes, than die zero times and take an hour.

Considering that I only play with a mesmer, the ability of some heroway to be effective on all professions is totally irrelevant to me. Even if I played all classes, I wouldn't want to bore myself to death using same heroes and playstyle on all the characters.

What you said makes no sense. How can a team that dies 0 times finish something 3x slower than a team that dies 10 times in 20 minutes?

Anyway, my point is, there is a fine line between survival and completion. The objective is to finish a task in the least possible time possible under the following two constraints:
1. Minimum deaths occur (aka higher survival rate, 0 = ideal)
2. Universally acceptable (hero bars runnable anywhere, although minor tweaks are acceptable to synergize better with human player's bar)

An example for 1 is: Team Build A finishing a task in 15 minutes and total of 5 deaths is worse off that a team build B finishing the same task in 17 minutes and 0 deaths. The 2 extra minutes is hardly of consideration especially if those 5 deaths occurred for the human player, in which case he would be booted from a HM instance, unless he removes his/her DP.

Example for 2 is: If you decide to use spiritway, at least bring splinter if you run a melee character, and perhaps modify one of the heroes to bring SoH. Similarly, if you are running ele, and brining meteor shower, it seems logical to bring earth bind on one of the rits. As a mesmer, you would want to bring frustration on your bar so that it synergizes well with your hero spirit dissonance. Similarly, there are plenty of other changes that can be made to benefit other professions.

P_A_A · Jul 01, 2010, 01:16 PM // 13:16

A team that has half its group for healing won't die but will have horrible times. That's the point Josip was trying to point out