Curse

Kyp Jade · Jul 18, 2010, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Being viable, useful, or even just being a strong choice to bring to the team is what I look at. If I bring someone to a group, I expect to notice thier effect on clearing the zone/dungeon/whatever. This isnt even necessarily about a panic mesmer, its about any class in general. I also usually change my team setup based on what area I'm in, I dont believe in the one build fits all idea. It takes 15 seconds to look ahead, 15 more to consider what to bring, and all of 1 minute to make the changes.

I only care about speed on farms, and farm builds tend to have a way of optimizing themselves over time, which makes it hard/stupid to take someone out of a sc build for a new build.

byteme! · Jul 18, 2010, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Of course BLA is not a good area for this kind of test because it's not repeatable

If you are gonna debate over something at least come up with facts and know what you are talking about first hand. Correct me if I'm wrong but you haven't done BLA yet. Drop your paper and pencil, forget about your theories and try it. This armchair quarterback stuff doesn't suit you.

Cuilan · Jul 18, 2010, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Sure. And then you'll tell these people your own version, they'll invest a lot of time in their mesmer, come to DoA and type "mesmer LFG" and won't get accepted in a single PuG group because they ain't running DwG.

It's rare, but there are an occasional pug in Doa that mentions that they're looking for Panic in DoA. Either way, them pug bitches accept and invite me in their DWG groups as Panic.

Jeydra · Jul 19, 2010, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Being viable, useful, or even just being a strong choice to bring to the team is what I look at. If I bring someone to a group, I expect to notice thier effect on clearing the zone/dungeon/whatever. This isnt even necessarily about a panic mesmer, its about any class in general. I also usually change my team setup based on what area I'm in, I dont believe in the one build fits all idea. It takes 15 seconds to look ahead, 15 more to consider what to bring, and all of 1 minute to make the changes.

I only care about speed on farms, and farm builds tend to have a way of optimizing themselves over time, which makes it hard/stupid to take someone out of a sc build for a new build.

How do you tell what is viable / useful / a strong choice? Is that not subjective? I could claim Mending Wammos with Frenzy Healsig is viable / useful / a strong choice. If you operate under these criteria, can you dispute that? If you say "expect to notice their effect", then when I went from using two Monks to one, including EotN Cynn in my parties, I noticed a difference. Cynn runs MB Fire. If you're lumping Panic Mesmers together with MB Fire Eles in terms of effectiveness, I don't have anything to say.

@byteme - no, I've not completed BLA. I've done quite a bit of it in HM, but didn't finish. I intend to, but I just can't attempt the quest right now. Nonetheless I know roughly what it's like (I've gotten close), and I believe I can do it with standard spiritway, given enough finesse. You can be sure I intend to upload screenshots if and when I succeed, if only to give everyone else something to shoot at (for some reason I'm the one expected to upload screenshots, lol).

By the way I don't know of anyone who's done BLA HM H/H, so for me and for everyone else it's unexplored territory - which is a good thing isn't it? I've also seen your screenshot Perfected Shadow. It's impressive, especially with the level 10 Alesia, but it was in NM. I know it's repeatable as a quest, but I do want to accept the reward.

Kyp Jade · Jul 19, 2010, 08:46 PM // 20:46

You got the first line of my post read, go ahead and finish the rest of it when you have time Jeydra

maxxfury · Jul 19, 2010, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Being viable, useful, or even just being a strong choice to bring to the team is what I look at.

I also usually change my team setup based on what area I'm in, I dont believe in the one build fits all idea. It takes 15 seconds to look ahead, 15 more to consider what to bring, and all of 1 minute to make the changes.

By that reasoning, the mes with a scythe outputs some pretty massive damage with the scythe an the associated phys buffs and procs, and its more than quite noticeable when stuff blows up, and the sustainable dps is higher than what ever caster bar you run...if your looking for dps..

especially if your running a physway style team with orders, mops, splinters ect ect.and you adjust your bar to fit with this heavy physical, very heavily protted setup

*which counters the natural squishyness

)

Jeydra · Jul 20, 2010, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Being viable, useful, or even just being a strong choice to bring to the team is what I look at But "viable", "useful" and "being a strong choice" aren't well defined. If I bring someone to a group, I expect to notice thier effect on clearing the zone/dungeon/whatever I notice Cynn's effect when I'm clearing the zone / dungeon / whatever. This isnt even necessarily about a panic mesmer, its about any class in general Are you implying the Panic Mesmer is on the same level of power as a MB Fire Ele?. I also usually change my team setup based on what area I'm in, I dont believe in the one build fits all idea So do I. It takes 15 seconds to look ahead, 15 more to consider what to bring, and all of 1 minute to make the changes I generally do all this in less than 20 seconds; it's just a matter of load template.

I don't get your point

Are you claiming that Panic Mesmers are "viable", "useful" and "a strong choice" because you notice their effect on clearing the zone / dungeon / whatever? If so you're implying that Water Eles are "viable", "useful" and "a strong choice" because any competent player is going to notice enemies moving slower (i.e. have an effect). So what? It doesn't make Water a good element; in fact Water is clearly the weakest of the four elements available to Elementalists, and no good player is going to use a Water Ele with his three hero slots - if he uses an Elementalist at all.

I stand by what I said: clear times are the best way of distinguishing between builds. You clear out overly defensive builds who kill slowly, overly offensive builds who keep dying, subpar defensive builds which require more support to work and subpar offensive builds that deal less damage than other options.

The Josip · Jul 20, 2010, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Tested Panic again both on myself and heroes. On myself it's a "fun skill" for a moment and that's it. I prefer both PI and Ineptitude builds to Panic. On heroes, Panic is shit. Ok, it's not exactly shit, it's just a mediocre skill that is so hyped out here that one would expect this skill to completely cripple enemy mob where "you don't need other skills" as some said. In reality, heroes cast Panic even on solo monsters, and mesmer hero chronically lacks energy.
Taking Panic means not taking great skills such as Cry of Frustration and Overload, for example (oh sure you can take them, except they might fail because of panic effects, or antisynergize which I hate). I invest in FC and Domination and have what, a bunch of mediocre skills to choose from after I chose Panic.

I have myself and 3 heroes - plus set henchmen. That means for myself I have to choose something that will either be the best or most fun. Panic I don't find the best - I'd rather run Psychic Scythe, EVAS spam or Ineptitude build. I don't find Panic most fun either. Now, sure it can be fun for 30 min. The problem is that Panic makes me into an auto-interrupt bot. Maybe ANet saw what's going on with bots in PvP and thought "hey, people want that, auto-interrupts" and gave us that. Thing is, I don't like it. I want interactivity. Action. Reaction. Being involved. Panic is a passive skill that brings mesmer skill to a minimum. You can be good mesmer nowdays without being a good mesmer, if you get what I mean. Welcome mesmer class, to the community of other classes.

That being said, I'm pretty sure Panic will be somewhat better when you're on defense, when huge mobs are coming to you, mobs that spam a bunch of skills. In a place where you can use choke points and camp. I have no doubt that Panic will be better in such a situation than in an average PvE area. Is in a situation ideal for Panic, Panic better than PI and other stuff? Honestly, I don't know, and don't care. I'm not going to support a skill pointing at one mission or quest and saying "but here Panic is good!". Maybe so, but unless I'm feeling creative I'm not going to change my team build for every quest, mission and zone, when 1 build beats it all efficiently, and in more fun way.

As far as I'm concerned, Panic is oh so overrated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

By that reasoning, the mes with a scythe outputs some pretty massive damage with the scythe an the associated phys buffs and procs, and its more than quite noticeable when stuff blows up, and the sustainable dps is higher than what ever caster bar you run...if your looking for dps..

Not just raw dps. Don't forget Psychic Instability elite, especially if using consumable that shortens recharge. IMO, it's the best mesmer elite, and most versatile because you don't need to invest in two attributes like Ineptitude or Panic (which are both inferior anyway).

Xenomortis · Jul 20, 2010, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

In reality, heroes cast Panic even on solo monsters, and mesmer hero chronically lacks energy.

Mesmer heroes perpetually have that problem. With 3 energy gain skills they seem to get by though. And Hero skill usage is poor, so no surprise there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Taking Panic means not taking great skills such as Cry of Frustration and Overload, for example (oh sure you can take them, except they might fail because of panic effects, or antisynergize which I hate). I invest in FC and Domination and have what, a bunch of mediocre skills to choose from after I chose Panic.

Cry of Frustration doesn't have anti-synergy with Panic. It's neutral. Given the two have very similar effects (AoE Interrupt), it doesn't matter all that much if Cry interrupts something instead of Panic (and Cry's interrupt is superior).

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

The problem is that Panic makes me into an auto-interrupt bot. Maybe ANet saw what's going on with bots in PvP and thought "hey, people want that, auto-interrupts" and gave us that. Thing is, I don't like it. I want interactivity. Action. Reaction. Being involved. Panic is a passive skill that brings mesmer skill to a minimum. You can be good mesmer nowdays without being a good mesmer, if you get what I mean. Welcome mesmer class, to the community of other classes.

Panic isn't so good that you can neglect the rest of your bar, as you said. Just because your elite is a passive skill, doesn't mean the rest of your bar is. Mistrust is an excellent skill and whilst it may seem unnecessary with Panic, it's still decent damage. You can still take Cry of Frustration without losing anything which is still half decent damage. All you really lose is a reliable Overload.
The problem isn't; "There's too much anti-synergy". It's "The rest of Domination Magic is shit".

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

That being said, I'm pretty sure Panic will be somewhat better when you're on defense, when huge mobs are coming to you, mobs that spam a bunch of skills. In a place where you can use choke points and camp. I have no doubt that Panic will be better in such a situation than in an average PvE area.

"Being on defense" doesn't have much to do about it. Panic clearly becomes more powerful against larger mobs (hence it's almost always taken for Battle for Lion's Arch, where the swarming mobs are very big). This is nice because it flips around a historical problem with Mesmers - they become much weaker against larger mobs.
Other potential uses would be for the large Awakened mobs in the Desolation or perhaps the heavier caster mobs in various Dungeons. I don't know how it would fair against the Summit mobs in Slaver's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

As far as I'm concerned, Panic is oh so overrated.

Agreed, but I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be. Of course, I haven't tested it as much as you probably have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

IMO, it's the best mesmer elite, and most versatile because you don't need to invest in two attributes like Ineptitude or Panic (which are both inferior anyway).

So you fill up with Inspiration? Or do you scurry around looking for a suitable secondary?
I agree that Psychic Instability is potentially the best Mesmer elite right now. It's a shame that heroes really do not use it very well, but in the hands of a good human this is could be devastating to the enemy. The problem with PI, is that you need to max out Fast Casting.

The Josip · Jul 20, 2010, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Agreed, but I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be.

I rate it as #3 mesmer elite. So I wouldn't say that's bad.

I just think it's overhyped in general. If you're a mesmer, sure you don't have 10 choices for elite. With heroes it's different.

Quote:

This is nice because it flips around a historical problem with Mesmers - they become much weaker against larger mobs.

Nice observation. Yes, it certainly makes mesmer a man for all seasons. Which is good, since mesmer is supposed to be someone who has a solution for everything if he adapts.

Haggis of Doom · Jul 20, 2010, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Hmm, why not WW on a Panic Mistrust Cry bar?

Xenomortis · Jul 21, 2010, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Hmm, why not WW on a Panic Mistrust Cry bar?

I've been trying Panic, Mistrust, WW, CoP and some other stuff on my Mes. Mistrust is good, Panic is good, Wastrel's Worry isn't. It doesn't trigger very often.
There's bugger all else though, so unless I take one of the Norn shouts or EVAS, I might as well take it

The Drunkard · Jul 23, 2010, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Yes that is too much defense. In normal 8-man situations

Please define "normal" for me. I "normally" play only elite areas these days, yet my alliance uses Panic quite frequently in most areas aside from the EoTN dungeons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

if you have a human ER, one healer is enough and you don't need support. If you're running H/H, 1.5 healers is enough. In my H/H teams these days I run Mhenlo plus a Rit with Kaolai / Spirit Light / Mend Body And Soul at most. The remainder of the team are there to deal damage, although they also absorb a great deal of damage.

And if you don't have access to an ER or are unable to use it due to the nature of the area, then what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I stand by what I said: clear times are the best way of distinguishing between builds. You clear out overly defensive builds who kill slowly, overly offensive builds who keep dying, subpar defensive builds which require more support to work and subpar offensive builds that deal less damage than other options.

As I've stated before, panic helps easy the monk's job. If you go into an area with inexperienced people, it's safer to grab a panic mesmer than it is to bring another MoP along. Clear times mean nothing when the group fails, and the extra five to ten min of time gained by ditching a support class is wasted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Tested Panic again both on myself and heroes. On myself it's a "fun skill" for a moment and that's it. I prefer both PI and Ineptitude builds to Panic. On heroes, Panic is shit. Ok, it's not exactly shit, it's just a mediocre skill that is so hyped out here that one would expect this skill to completely cripple enemy mob where "you don't need other skills" as some said.

Panic is superior to PI against larger mobs, because it keeps the mob clumped and useless longer than PI with less strings attached (ie: you have to interrupt a skill on a foe in the middle of a mob) which is common in some elite areas and quests (4 horsemen). Against mobs of 4 and fewer, you are correct by saying that panic is garbage. Cry of frustration is useful during the small opening of time that panic is down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Hmm, why not WW on a Panic Mistrust Cry bar?

Panic is counter-productive with WW. WW fails when a foe uses a skill, while Panic triggers when a foe uses a skill. If you want to use WW, change to PI instead.

HigherMinion · Jul 23, 2010, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Panic can also be helpful for ERs in heavy enchant stripping areas, and condition/hex spamming. I'm thinking Foundry of Fail.

Jeydra · Jul 23, 2010, 07:20 AM // 07:20

You're the one who referred to normal 8-man situations, so tell me what you mean by "normal".

Of course Panic helps the Monk's job. It's a defensive skill. You could say the same of "Save Yourselves!" or bringing another ER Ele with Prot Bond, etc etc etc. Clear times mean nothing if the group fails, yes - but I've done everything I've tried (with the exception of BLA HM, which I've yet to seriously attempt) without Panic. And with three mainly offensive heroes. And with one henchman Monk. And I don't fail.

Here's something else: you may not agree with Josip, but you have to admit that Josip is contributing new knowledge or at least reporting his / her own finds. You haven't posted anything of that sort. Cast less stones, to be honest.

Quote:

And if you don't have access to an ER or are unable to use it due to the nature of the area, then what?

I pretty much never use ER heroes. They're pretty weak and giving up a damage hero for a defensive one is not my style. This question does not apply to me.

@Panic discussion - I think Panic is a reasonably good elite but still not outstanding. My experience running a Panic hero in Ooze Pit showed that if you can hex the entire mob with it, you seriously decrease the threat posed by that mob. Powerful though this effect is, there are many drawbacks, not least that Panic is fragile defense and you cannot rely on it the same way you can rely on Aegis. Aegis will always affect your entire party when cast; Panic is much less likely to.

There're other elites and other builds regardless, so I've still got lots of ground to cover with Mesmer heroes.

Life Bringing · Jul 23, 2010, 07:57 AM // 07:57

So i gave BLA HM a try tonight, and i must say it was not fun. Furthest i made it was the perfected armor, and i only managed that once. I usually ended up getting pushed back repeatedly by Isaiahs rspike team until Salma died. I tried with standard spiritway rits and tried both an MM and a panic. To say the least, i wasn't very happy with my results under either option. Also note that i was at a disadvantage because i was using a sin. Melee didn't work out so well so i stepped back to a A/Me AP nuker.

Lopezus · Jul 23, 2010, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Josip
Taking Panic means not taking great skills such as Cry of Frustration and Overload, for example (oh sure you can take them, except they might fail because of panic effects, or antisynergize which I hate). I invest in FC and Domination and have what, a bunch of mediocre skills to choose from after I chose Panic.

Cry of Frustration doesn't have anti-synergy with Panic. It's neutral. Given the two have very similar effects (AoE Interrupt), it doesn't matter all that much if Cry interrupts something instead of Panic (and Cry's interrupt is superior).

I agree after playing with Panic some more i don't find that anti-synergy, panic is defensive skill, spamable aoe intrupt over time, basicly it's fire and forget, hex mobs and then you can concentrate on other tasks, while panic is doing its magic.

The Josip · Jul 23, 2010, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

I agree after playing with Panic some more i don't find that anti-synergy, panic is defensive skill, spamable aoe intrupt over time, basicly it's fire and forget, hex mobs and then you can concentrate on other tasks, while panic is doing its magic.

8 skills please.

Lopezus · Jul 23, 2010, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

8 skills please.

This resposne is getting old, and no need for this.What do you expect from me, to pull a rabbit from my hat ? You know how domination line looks like perfectly well, so you can make panic skillbar yourself. Basicly, panic,mistrust,usignet,cop, and some energy managment and rest you can choose form: pve skills,empathy,eburn,shatter hex/enchatment,ww. All i'm saying in terms of pugging, panic build made you actually really usefull to the team. From my experience: Z-mission Hm,Wik HM in pugs, panic is teh shit like Imbagon build for paras, it can save your regular pug's ass, something that AP spammer or Ineptitude couldn't.

The Josip · Jul 23, 2010, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

This resposne is getting old, and no need for this.What do you expect from me, to pull a rabbit from my hat ? You know how domination line looks like perfectly well, so you can make panic skillbar yourself. Basicly, panic,mistrust,usignet,cop, and some energy managment and rest you can choose form: pve skills,empathy,eburn,shatter hex/enchatment,ww.

Yea you're right in one thing - that's a typical PuG-like build there. Nothing special in it, impresses no one, it's on the line of "Whatever, let's get the mission done, everyone ready?".

Quote:

All i'm saying in terms of pugging, panic build made you actually really usefull to the team. From my experience: Z-mission Hm,Wik HM in pugs, panic is teh shit like Imbagon build for paras, it can save your regular pug's ass, something that AP spammer or Ineptitude couldn't.

Let me put it this way: does your PuG group take 1 or 2 monks?

If 2, then that Panic build is indeed really useful to the PuG team.. when the team is bad. If the team is decent, I'd take AP EVAS spammer build any day and just finish the mission.

You're also wrong about AP spammer - AP spammer can spam knockdowns (EVAS) and daze (if 6-second long Technobabble.. tried it?), and instantly-killing spammable Pain Inverter - which is very efficient way to deal with dangerous casters. But unlike that Panic build you posted, AP EVAS spammer will annihilate the opposition. The sheer fact that AP spammer annihilate foes so fast also means less defense is needed. Alternatively, you cast Panic and wait 10 minutes per mob till foes interrupt themselves to death.

Basically, that build you posted, and the way you argumented it, just proves to me what I was saying before - Panic is good for fail teams as far as general PvE goes. You could defend Defy Pain in a same way when playing a Warrior: "Ah well I use Defy Pain because I can't rely on monks". True, you can't. If you're in a fail team. If you're not, Defy Pain is totally useless.

---

Someone also said that Panic is better than PI because PI lasts 4 seconds. Here's a fun part: when I play with PI (H/Hing), I knock down mob, smack smack, and the mob is gone. Few stragglers, if any, are easily handled. 4 seconds is a huge amount of time and serves to "absorb" initial damage - which is always great. Then the enemy has 4 seconds to do something.. after which knockdown, smack smack. You can time it right, you can choose which skills to interrupt and let go the useless ones. But yea, Panic is spam so it's going to be loved more than PI. Panic lasts full duration, and let's face it, most teams take ages to clear a mob. Good teams don't.
Of course, I've to repeat for 53rd time that I'm referring to general PvE.

There. That's my opinion. Now, have a nice gameplay and enjoy your Panic.